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"I agree about not listening to the drivel. Just figure out what is the drivel and what is not. The notion of registered equates to active is made up by the Scout-haters and free thinkers that want to do their own thing without any "rule" or such getting in the way. " No its not. The BSA has made it clear that its pretty much that. As I noted, for most organizations out there, they will define active as: paying dues and attending meetings/events (prehaps a minimum is required). The BSA has said that troops CAN NOT DO THAT. From the Advancement Committee Guideline booklet (found http://www.scouting.org/filestore/commissioner/pdf/33088.pdf but I understand a new edition is coming), on page 24 we read that active in the troop is: * Registered in the unit * Not dismissed from the unit for disciplinary reasons * Engaged by his unit leaders on a regular basis (informed of unit activities thru personal contact). THAT'S IT. NO 'attending meetings'. NO 'attending events' or the like. This personal contact could be you called the boy and told him of an upcoming event. Or emailed him about things. Or mailed him stuff. He doesn't have to come. I bet daveinWA's troops definition is more along the lines of coming to meetings and event. Too bad, the BSA says no. Don't assume I agree with this. I am giving you what the BSA's policy is on it.

Everyone else answered the question. This is something that pops up every so often on on-line forums, but I want to point something out. "Our Troop manual clearly defines what 'active' is for us so I have an reference but now, one of the Eagle candidates who has been absent from the Troop but kind of active in the Crew, is ready for his BOR." Bit of advice. I understand that your troop wants to define active. Most organizations do. It typically paying dues, attending a minimum number of meetings & events. However, when push comes to shove, if a troop trying to impose any such definition of active, if the boy (or his parents) appeal to National, National will come back and say that being registred is all that is needed to be active. This HAS happened, and is almost always brought up when the topic of 'what is active?' is discussed on-line. Just saying. I would say that is sounds like this youth is active in the crew, so prehaps he should get his Eagle thru the crew and not the troop. that may avoid any issues amoung the leadership of these 2 units...

"The consensus from adults running NYLT locally is that it should be two separate events for the crew leadersship and boy scouts because otherwise too much of the info is lost by trying to translate from scoutmaster, patrols, etc to what works for crews." While I think many would agree that would be a better idea, don't expect that to happen anytime soon. I recommended they do the same for WB, but I was attacked as a horrible person who obviously wants to prevent non-Boy Scout leaders from taking WB for proposing such an idea.... So obviously you are a horrible person for wanting to deny NYLT for Venturers...

"A unit committee that has to take formal votes, count numbers for a quorum, and establish policies about bank accounts isn't operating in an efficient, Scoutlike manner, IMHO. There's simply no need to get all legalistic and procedural about this Scouting stuff." An organization which is doing this IS an efficient one, following commonly accepted parliamentary procedure. (there is nothing 'legalistic' about this). There is nothing 'unscoutlike' in doing so. But the thing is, a unit committee is NOT a 'deliberative assembly'. That is, its NOT a group that needs to be making decisions. Its a support group there to support what the work of the Scoutmaster and the PLC. Decisions should be made by general consent.

Let's step back a bit. The purpose of a constitution/bylaws for an organization is to define how the organization is organized. (members & member rights, meetings, officers and their duties how elected, etc). So please stop staying that the Scout Law/Oath covers this. It doesn't. The SLO covers BEHAVIOR. Bylaws don't cover behavior. What DOES cover this is, as others have pointed out, resources like the Troop Committee Guidebook and such. Its because of these that units DO NOT NEED bylaws. IF the BSA expected orgs to have bylaws, they would have clearly stated this, provided bylaw templates, etc. They only do this for councils, oa lodges, voas, venturing crews & ships. That should tell you something. As others have pointed out, if a troop needs to put down in writing some things they do and how they do it, a list of these rules (which we would normally call "standing rules", but sometimes are called "policies and procedures") can be done. But, again, units need to be careful they aren't trying to rewrite BSA policies. Also, FYI, in the old days orgs had separate constitutions and bylaws documents. This went out of style in the 60s, where orgs instead had just bylaws. As one person put it, 'coutries have constitutions, organizations have bylaws'. Older orgs haven't gotten the message and replaced their constitutions with bylaws.

All uniforms for the various old youth programs are covered at my site: www.seniorscoutinghistory.org During the 60s there was another Explorer uniform: the navy Explorer blazer and gray pants. the blazer came from National with the circle-v logo on the pocket, later a big E.

"Troop 71 seems to have changed districts (But same council), is that common? Maybe it died and the number was just recycled?" Districts can come and go. My original council did 2-3 reorgs in the years I was involved that meant new districts being formed, or districts being eliminated. Troop numbers are seldom recycled. As to the Quality Unit patch. Keep in mind its an award that the UNIT earns, and those who are in the unit when it was earned get to wear it. So if you go to a new unit, you can't take along the QU patch from your old unit. And I think it improper to wear a QU from the new unit when you weren't part of it when it was earned. (tho I know some disagree) You wear only one. I am not aware of any rule about how long you can wear an old one, but it is a little embarassing to wear an old one (ie 2-3 years old), because won't that mean your unit hasn't earned it recently?? (FYI- the rule of wearing only one came about back with the older 'honor unit' program that was before the QU back in the 80s. You could wear prior ones and people did. not just one or two, but 4-5 and sometimes in double rows (the patches were smaller). So it was getting out of hand and the rule was you wear just ONE).

"One must be vigilant that the traditions of the military and civilian are not the same." No. I'd say one must be careful as the traditions of the military and civilian are not always the same. A perfect example is the wearing the flag patches on the sleeves. The *military* has decided to wear them with the canton to the wearer's front. However, the US flag Code is clear that the canton should be to the left side of the flag, hence the way the flag patches are on the BSA uniform is JUST FINE. There is NO REASON to change them or claim they are incorrect.

"And if memory serves those older scouts in the venture crews were somtimes called "venture Scouts,"" If they were called that, it was incorrect (tho logical). National has always been clear (well, if you look for it), that youth in Venture Crews/patrols are "Boy Scouts", NOT "Venture Scouts". "kinda like Varsity Scouts, esp since they could earn the letter and pins that Varsity Scouts earn (Ok originally it was only the HA pins the older scouts could earn, just like varsity scouts could only earn the sports pins.)" Not quite. When the in-troop Venture/Varsity program was rolled out in 1989 (the in-troop Varsity program should NOT be confused with the standalong Varsity Scout Teams), the older youth could be formed into high adventure Venture Crews or sports Varsity Teams. The crews would earn the HA pins, and the Teams earn the sports pins. It was soon realized that the in-troop Varsity Teams were being confused with the stand alone Varsity Scout Teams, so the terms were dropped (about 4-5 years later), and the Venture Crews could do either HA or sports. Varsity Scout Teams also got the "Varsity" strip that was created for the Varsity Teams. More recently (well, I think about 3-5 years ago), National quietly changed things so that ONLY Varsity Scout Teams can earn the pins. Not sure why. I know I asked National for confirmation and they did so in Scouting Mag. You'd think this was part of a plan to get rid of the Venture Patrols, but they still exist. (btw, all this is documented at my site www.seniorscoutinghistory.org) Obviously, National picked up the terms "Venture" and "Venturing" from other scouting programs. I find it funny that recently England renamed their Venture program the Explorer program...

You can thank National for many of the naming problems. It doesn't help that we already have a Venture program. Hence using "Venture" in the Venturing program is incorrect (thus, no "Venture Crew" or "Venture Scout"). The BSA has specifically stated that the term "Venture Scout" is NOT to be used. Venturing is the name of the program. I guess calling it the Venturer program didn't work. Since we were replacing Exploring, it was more or less natural. Hence why we have Venturing Crews. The boy scout program is the 'boy scout' program. A little different. Youth are Venturers. Venture/Venturing Scouts was probably out for the same reason we stopped called Explorers "Explorer Scouts" back in 1949: it was thought the youth would NOT like to be called 'scouts'. (Exploring even re-iterated this a few times in the 60s and 70s to NOT call Explorers 'Explorer Scouts'). YOU may be proud of the term, but OTHERS are not. I, for one, have no problem calling adults in Venturing 'scouters'. We ARE part of the Scouting program, so we are also scouters. 'advisors', as others have pointed out, should only be used for those who actually hold that position. Yes, will some committee members may advise certain venturers, they are not advisors.

"I believe oncve upon a time BSA did have such a patch, or something similar, but it was limited to Explorers. I think it was either a patch or armband, but don't quote me on that." I think you are thinking of the Emergency Service Explorer (later called Ready Explorer) which ran from the war period to the 60s and maybe 70s. In the early decades of the program, Explorers had to complete several areas of training or show proficiancy in certain activities to be qualified as such (this should be covered at my site www.seniorscoutinghistory.org). As emergency services became more widespread and professionalized, the need for having scouts/explorers do this went away, limited to Explorers in speciality posts related to this area. But they had to be trained in a LOT more then just First Aid/CPR.

"as is the National Venturing Comittee for thinking it can dream up a national policy that is up to BSA standards" National Venturing committee??? We haven't had a National Venturing Committee since BSA National reorged in 2008. As BadenP said, this comes from whatever group does all the YPT/G2SS stuff, with who knows what input from the 1 or 2 professionals with any Venturing knowledge...

"Just curious, who is Outdoor Adventures?????? I would like to know who owns them and what there "expertise" and experience is." Outdoor Adventures is one of the main National divisions/committees. Others include Council Support, Training, Youth Development. The OA, Sea Scouts, Jamboree, and some other groups are under Outdoor Adventures.

Will I wouldn't have put it as forcefully as BadenP did, he's right. I'm one of those people. I'm a vigil honor member of the OA and involved in Venturing & Sea Scouting. In fact, the only BSA programs I am involved in are: Venturing, Sea Scouts, and OA. It also ignores the fact that many use the flap-shaped Corps of Discovery patch. And I know of one council VOA that uses a flap-shaped patch. But I have about 8 of the old shirts, so I'm good...

It was done intentionally, because the positions are very different, requiring different training. In boy scouting, varsity scouting, venturing, and sea scouts, you basically have just 2 types of unit leaders: the key leader and the assistants. In cub scouts, you have the cubmaster, but then you have the tiger cub leaders, den leaders and webelos den leaders, who are almost unit leaders in their own right, because the dens met on their own. Hence the need for their own training and training awards. then you have the den leader coach/cub scout trainers, again who need their own training and award. For the assistants, there is another award. Its due to the difference in the programs.

sounds like the 'coup' beads my summer camp used years ago. most people use pony beads. Do you mean the disk beads shown here: http://bsa212.org/html/coup_beads.html I'd say contact this troop and see where they got them.

Why do you need to dye the velcro?? If its totally covered by the patch, what difference does it make? I use Velcro to put my OA flap or CoD flap on my uniforms (when you have several shirts, and are in lodges that change the flap every 2-3 years with the expectation that you wear the current flap, this is easier). I use white velcro. The piece on my shirt is a little narrower then the flap, so its covered up. Since I have about 8 Venturing shirts, having a couple of different positions isn't a problem. Different shirts are for different positions. I've had more then one shirt for several years, useful when camping out so you have a spare or two.

I don't see anything incorrect about this. Somehow I think whoever designed it was trying to subtly discourage the wearing of OA flaps, which I think was kind of dump. A lot of arrowmen (myself included) are ONLY involved in Venturing. This is one (of several) reasons why I have no plans on getting this new shirt. Besides, I have plenty of the previous shirts I can wear instead.

"Powder horn was a complete waste of time too. If you really want high adventure training sign up for a course thru NOLS or national outdoor leadership skills." PH is NOT high adventure training. If you went expecting to get trained in all that stuff, someone was misled or misinformed. PH is a high adventure resource course. It's to introduce you to the local resources to help you put on a high adventure program, NOT make you a high adventure expect. For that, going to NOLS or similiar would be correct. I got a lot out of it, and I've done high adventure stuff. I was exposed to stuff I really didn't know too much about, and reacquainted with some new resources.

"But... Collarless shirt?!? Who? Where? How do I get them?" During the 50s, 60s, and 70s, all shirts (both short and long sleeved) for Boy Scouts were collarless. Only adults and older scouts had collars so they could wear ties. That's what I wore as a Boy Scout before they rolled out the ODL uniform, which eliminated the collarless option.

Just to be clear, OA Lodges have SEVERAL advisers. (please note, in the OA, its 'adviser', not 'advisor'). There is the LODGE ADVISER. this is the top volunteer adviser, appointed by the SE with a year term. Depending on the council, there may be a limit to how many years. There is the LODGE STAFF ADVISER. This is the top professional adviser, again, appointed by the SE. They advise the OA along with their other duties. There may be 1-2 ASSOCIATE LODGE ADVISERs. These are volunteer advisers picked by the Lodge Adviser, whose term they match. They may be looked at as possible successors to the Lodge Adviser. Or not. (we recently got a new Lodge Adviser, and it wasn't the previous associate lodge adviser. Who stayed on as associate lodge adviser). There are CHAPTER ADVISERs, one per chapter. I'm actually unclear as to who selects them. This should be layed out in the GOA. There can be ASSOCIATE CHAPTER ADVISERs, as decided by the chapter adviser. And there are a wide range of other lodge advisers, adults who advise certain youth leaders &/or committees. So you may have a Vigil Adviser, a Ceremonies Adviser, an LLD Adviser, etc etc. These people may serve for years and years, or not. They all serve at the will of the Lodge Adviser, and if a new Lodge Adviser comes in, may be kept or not.

"At the heart of the matter is really simple. Does the BSA or the OA have the right to prevent a parent from enjoying his or her successes in life. To participate and observe in moments of time that will never be captured again. If the child and parent are enriched from sharing the experience be it direct or indirect. If your against this mindset...I only ask one question. What gives you the authority to deny a parent and child a moment in their lives? It sure wasn't the BSA or the OA. Because the rules are clear no matter how you look at it. There is to be no event in the BSA which will not be open to observation by a parent or leader. " Gee, you just don't get it. The problem is, NO ONE says that the OA (or BSA) has the authority or right to deny the parent being at any OA ceremony. The thing is, NOT EVERYTHING IN A CHILD'S LIFE IS A "parent-child" MOMENT. Too many parents have gone overboard, thinking they MUST be involved in EVERY aspect of their child's life. They don't. They need to cut the apron strings. They need to give their child breathing room and the chance to live their own lives. Boy Scouts (and by extension the OA) is NOT a parent-child program. This is what several of us are saying. Stop and think first BEFORE demanding to be at that ceremony. We can't prevent you from being there. But please re-consider. There are more appropriate times for parent-child moments. (the lodge banquet, the court of honor, etc). I am reminded of a great series of 'children's books' called the "Swallows and Amazons" series. Its about several groups of children in England between the wars, having outdoor adventures during school holidays. The ages of the kids aren't clear, but seem to be about middles school or so. Thing about these stories, is that the kids are doing it WITHOUT their parents around. Their parents TRUST THEM to be able to doing without them. And the few adults around let them take the lead in things, not hoving around and being surrogate parents. In many ways, the adults act like we would want scout leaders to act. The books kind of celebrate the fact that kids on their own can be independent and take care of themselves. Kind of what we hope that scouts will be. The funny thing is (and my final point) is that these books are very popular amoung many families. Who then organize parent-child trips and activities inspired by them. Why is this funny? Because the books are NOT about 'parent-child activities', but on independent child activities...

"Nonmembers should not attend the ceremonies." It says should not. It does NOT say CAN NOT, or WILL NOT. Its discouraging nonmembers from attending, NOT forbidding attendence. If the parent or religious leader still feels they need to see the ceremony, they will be allowed. I have a 09 handbook. I'll see what it says. And again, the reason for them wanting to do so is about concerns about the ceremony. NOT because they feel they need to be there like they attend a court of honor or the like. The problem I see is that SeattlePioneer is pushing his VIEWS and thinking that its policy. It's not. I seriously doublt that SP is an arrowman or have any real knowledge of it. Arrowmen do NOT turn away non-members from seeing the ceremonies for any sinister reasons. Its done because these ceremonies should be PRIVATE. Its distrubtive for nonmembers to be there and do things like a previous poster noted. This is why when it occurs, it should be only the parent & religious leader, and done such that its non distruptive.

"Unfortunately, willful OA leaders just don't get it, so it needs to be stated in the baldest terms" Sorry, SeattlePioneer, it is YOU who doesn't get it. "ANY effort to discourage parents from attending is VERBOTTEN!" Sorry, there is NO such rule, and NO such view. the rule mearly states that parents (and certain other leaders) are allowed to observe the ceremony. AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, *NO ONE* has said otherwise. OA leaders get this. YOU don't! There IS a reason why we do NOT promote the time/location of ceremonies. They are PRIVATE. (not secret). IF parents have concerns about the OA and its rituals, having a conversation FIRST is the best way to address this. This can include showing them the ritual. If they STILL have concerns, they are OF COURSE allowed to observe (but in such a way as to NOT disturb things), see the recent posting on an example of this. IF parents want to see the ritual for other reasons, having that conversation first is best to possibly get it thru their heads NOT to attend. But AGAIN, if they STILL want to see it, they are OF COURSE allowed to observe.

"1, It's the adults who are confused. Kids deal with change just fine." Don't be to sure of that. I spent many years as a PL and SPL, but when I left scouting and was an officer in a college club, I was lost because I didn't understand that sort of structure. I couldn't go from being a troop leader to being a leader in a more general club structure. In my Fraternity, we get a lot of requests from our youth that they want JOB SPECIFIC training, not just general leadership training. IMO, making NYLT less Boy Scout Troop-specific and more general leadership doesn't help those youth who need to understand how to be a PL or SPL or the like, as well as the Venturers who need to understand how to be a President or VP or the like.