emb021

What "schleining" speaks of is just sloppy wearing of the uniform (and wearing of inproper, non-uniform items). for units to say that its 'ok' for them is garbage. Another item I really hate is seeing all the kids not properly wearing neckerchiefs & doing stuff with the shirt collar. I saw this a LOT at jamboree. * the scout shirt is worn with the collar OPEN. I saw a lot of kids with the top button buttoned. I was taught as a kid that one NEVER buttons the top button unless you are wearing a tie. Who is teaching kids (or allowing them) to do this? * when wearing the neckerchief with the collar, the collar is worn OPEN, with the neckerchief under the collar. I again saw kids who wore the neckerchief with collar, with the top button buttoned, and their slide pulled tight against their throats. This is not how its worn (check the literature). Again, who is teaching kids to do this? (note- in the heat of the jamboree, doing the above was STUPID) * when wearing a bolo tie with the collar, you again leave the top button unbutton, and should pull the bolo tie slide even with the uppermost buttoned button.

As another person noted, the Quartermaster Store is a good source. I have 2-3 different ones for different purposes. I also got the magnetic backings they sell, rather then use the push pins. Please note the proper wearing of name tags: * if you are NOT in the OA, the name tag goes ON the right pocket flap. * if you ARE in the OA, the name tag goes ABOVE the BSA strip above the right pocket. if you have interpreter strips, the name tag goes above them. (if you wear a Jamboree patch, be sure you leave enough room between the patch and the BSA strip to wear a name tag) Its NOT worn on the left side.

"Actually, I recall reading somewhere that there is no "Official" order of Wood Badge patrols. I think this concept of "Wood Badge order" is more tradition than anything. I also heard that patrol names are the decision of the course director. If there is anyone out there with the Official BSA stance on this, please let us know. Perhaps a Wood Badge Course Director... " Well, I'm not a CD, but I'll give this a try. AFAIK, the current set of WB patrols are official and have always been in that particular order, at least in the US. AFAIK, CDs can't change (or should not change) the patrol names. Now, as I understand it, things weren't always so. Currently, the way the 21CWB is run, there are these patrols in this order: Beaver - Bobwhite - Eagle - Fox - Owl - Bear - Buffalo - Antelope. Because of the minimum and maximum numbers for courses, that is it. You get anywere from 8 6-person patrols to 8 8-person patrols (MAYBE a few 9-person patrols). Now, with the older courses, it was different. With the old Boy Scout Leader WB, if you didn't get enough people, you might not have 8 patrols. You may only have up thru Bear, MAYBE Buffalo. (my course had up thru Buffalo) Antelope was VERY rare. People would gather to sign the song and get decent numbers for Beaver thru Bear, get fewer for Buffalo, and MAYBE get 2-3 (IF THAT!) for Antelope. And if you had someone with a different patrol... And if you needed more then 8 patrols, then courses would add additional patrols (rather then run 2 WB troops), which is where you get ones like Raven, etc. Some councils (or areas or regions) might have different traditions for what they might name the 9th patrol, etc. Or some might use a different name for #8, OR even drop other patrol names out it more 'spread out' the patrols that might exist in the area. (that is might do "Beaver - Bobwhite - Eagle - Fox - Bear - Buffalo - Antelope" one time, then "Beaver - Eagle - Fox - Owl - Bear - Buffalo - Antelope" another). [i've heard of this, but am uncertain if true] Maybe some of the older WBers can add/confirm/deny this. Now, I don't know what they might have done on the older WB courses. I DO know the older Explorer WB courses of the 50s had 4 patrols named for frontiersmen (Jim Bridger, Daniel Boone, Kit Carson, and William Clark to be exact). No idea what the Cub Scout Trainer WB or Varsity Scout WB courses did. "I do know that there have been other Wood Badge patrols in the US other than those that are standard now - and in other countries, I have heard of even more different patrol names. " That's what I've heard. So you might hear of Wolf or Curlew or some local bird/beast (elephant? etc). There apparently used to be an on-line WB Patrol Name Encyclopedia, but its gone. Hope this helps.

"It has been a tiny pet peeve of mine that before the 21st Century course, when people talked about Wood Badge they didn't seem to remember that there was also a Cub Scout course. " There wasn't a Cub Scout course. It was a Cub Scout Trainer course. Also, there was an Explorer course back in the 50s. And a Varsity Scout course in the 80s/90. the Explorer leaders out west felt left out, and created their own course. "You can wear Wood Badge beads on some Sea Scout uniforms anyway. " No, you can't. This is expressly forbidden in the Sea Scout Uniform policy stated in their manual. "Shooting the breeze with some of the good old boys in our Council, they seem unhappy that we are not spending enough time on teaching outdoor skills. Much as I hate to say it they may have a point. Of course they want to see the Boy Scout come back. I think that we might need to add another Boy Scout outdoor skills training, something like Powder Horn but for Troop leaders." Well, realize that Troop leaders CAN take Powder Horn. But I do understand the sentiement. "I am not for mandatory training and while I do think that training and training's go a long way to improve what we serve and how we serve the people we serve, it seems to me that everyone has a different reason for taking training. Some get shamed into attending, some go at it full speed ahead and want to get everything done ASAP. Some just want the recognition and some go for what might be termed all the right reasons. " Why do we do anything? "The Wood Badge course we have now is a good course on Leadership. I think that District and Council Training teams could do a better job with skill training and making people aware of other non-BSA training's that are out there. This might mean better lines of communication between the District Training Team and the R/T Commissioner Staff." Agree. Many council's have a University of Scouting program. This could be a great venue for such training. Nothing says you can bring in Red Cross First Aid training here, or those 'missing' scoutcraft skills, etc. And some RT people need to understand what RT is all about. I was at one recent RT and the guy running it seems to think RT is just a place to announce news and not a forum for supplemental training. You also have the excellent training at Philmont. Wonder how many people are missing out on this because they don't know about it (or some idiot didn't get them an invite)

"One problem in our District is that they have the OA meeting at the same time that Round Table is going on. Most of the adults in OA need to be at RT. It has been brought up about changing the OA meeting but the response is that they can't get people there other nights. Well if the adults you want to attend are at another meeting they can't come that night anyway. " This is done in many areas of the country, and isn't considered a problem. Its more important for the YOUTH to be at the Chapter meetings, then the adults. Many have them at the same time so that the adults going to RT can carpool the kids to the meeting. the need for the adults are usually in support the kids getting to lodge weekends and other events.

"Some of the other parts of Scouting have a "distinctive dress" policy which allows the members to choose their own style of uniform (or lack there of). " I guess you are speaking of Venturing. While this is true, the Venturing green uniform shirt is still fairly popular. Also, within Sea Scouting the use of the traditional naval-style uniform is still popular (and actually required for regional and national events).

Check out classb.com as a source for your unit's t-shirts, etc. Never used them myself, but know others who have. Might be ads from similiar companies in the back of Scouting. Also, don't overlook your local t-shirt company, especially if they've done shirts for other units.

""I have to say that the way Wood Badge was handled pre 21rstWB would have done any Good Ol' Boy network proud. Virtually never talked about except in in terms of what was done for the ticket and that you had to be invited to attend the next course and that it was only for "true scouters". So, if you werent invited, then you knew you werent a real scouter. With the 21rst Wood Badge, that attitude seemed to have changed. Yes, you still are invited, but you request an invitation and all qualified are taken. "" To a great extent, how some of this was done varied from council to council in the 'old days'. I took Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge back in 1988. Per the Admin Guide of the time (which I finally got a copy of), it was near impossible to get on staff (a council had to really work to justify 'allowing' someone new on staff), and past CD many times came back on staff, sometimes as a CD. And yes, you had to be 'invited' to be on the course. My council ran a course every 3 years. HOWEVER, when a course was coming up, they made it clear that 'yes, you need an invite', BUT, if you wanted an invite, you could ASK. So it wasn't impossible to get on a course. Now, things have changed. Most councils are running 1 OR MORE courses a year! They need to get people on board, so there is usually no problem getting on a course. Also, staff selection has changed. You now MUST have a percentage of new people on staff (this helped me finally get on a course). And as we've noted, the CD needs to 'move on' and allow new people the change to be a CD. We're lucky, actually. I've heard told that in England (no less) that they got rid of 3 & 4 bead necklaces! they did it to get rid of the WB 'old boy network' over there.

"You wrote, "Also, as to CDs coming back on staff. My understanding is that with 21CWB, Powder Horn, and NYLT, once you have been a CD, that's it." Do you have a reference for this information? " Someone answered this questions re: Wood Badge. This NOT in the WB Syllabus, but the separate WB Admin Guide, which is the source of information on ADMINISTRATING WB. That gives info on staff qualifications, need to have a percentage of newbies on staff, etc. The PH syllabus says the same thing about the PH CD. The NYLT syllabus (in the Admin Guide section) says the same thing about NYLT CD.

"You could always seek registration through your District. I would ask the District Chairman if I could be registered through the district, as part of the district camping committee. That should work out OK. " It might not. Many positions in Scouting you need to be 21 to hold. I know that in a troop you can be an ASM at 18, but must be 21 to be on the Troop Committee. Don't know about District/Council levels.

"Would it not serve the same purpose if there could be a special "preparation" training for those Wood Badgers who took the course prior to a 21st Century Wood Badge Course which provided all the new concepts, aims, and goals of the 21st Century Wood Badge Course. That prep-training could even go through the process of working a new ticket. " Actually, I had heard talk several years ago of a weekend 'WB refresher' course that would present the new WB concepts to those who had been thru the old WB and wanted to learn them without having to redo it (which wasn't allowed at the time) or be on staff just to learn the new stuff. I kept hearing that it was going to be a new National event coming out 'real soon now', then later was hearing that it WASN'T a new National event, but instead something that a local council had done (with National approval), but didn't hear more then that. Eventually I gave up on it when I finally got on staff myself. Also, at this time they were not allowing old WBers to participate on the new course. Since they dropped this restriction recently, I guess some felt the need for such a course had also gone away. Also, as to CDs coming back on staff. My understanding is that with 21CWB, Powder Horn, and NYLT, once you have been a CD, that's it. You 'move on' and allow others the chance. This is one of the big chances from the 'old WB' in which CDs would repeatedly be CDs, preventing others from getting a chance (along with the near impossibility of getting on staff). The idea with the 21CWB is you get new people on board as staff, and once you become CD, you step aside for newer people to be staffers and CDs. I won't claim to be an expert on WB staffing, but I haven't heard of any exceptions to allowing a CD to come back as a staffer. I think that what 'dancifox' says is reasonable, just don't know if policy allows for this.

You may be thinking about the 'college reserve' registration, which I think they got rid of. However, what most people need to understand is that per BSA, 'active' means 'registered'. So long as the troop keeps the boy as a registered member of the troop, that satisfies things. It only costs about $10 or so per year to be registered as an adult. That's what I did in college, and I kept active with my troop during the summer, no problem. They can also be registered with a Venturing Crew, and I have heard of 'paper crews' that exist in some councils for no other reason then for boys off in college.

Well, glad I got to staff a 21CWB course when I did. : I took Boy Scout Leader WB back in 1988. After years of asking, I finally got a chance to be on staff. In 2004 on a 21CWB. I knew the courses were different, and part of wanting to be on staff was to learn what was knew. I am also involved with leadership development training in other organizations, so I was also already familiar with many of the concepts being presented in 21CWB, so I didn't have the usually 'anti-21CWB' attitude that some WBers have. I made sure to learn how the course went. Our staff development work here was important. I worked to understand the new ticketing process. I'd like to think I did a good job on staff. I don't know if I'm too keen on this attitude of making WBers who haven't staffed a course by the end of next have to go thru it all again. But I would think that those who are activily involved in staffing would have already done so. I know that our council's most recent Course Director was on the previous course with me as a troop guide to met some of these new requirements.

As others have pointed out: GET TRAINING. The Adult Venturing training has a whole section on advancement. Get a copy of the Venturing Leader Manual (this book is for the youth officers, too!), Venturer Handbook/Ranger Guidebook, Quest Handbook and TRUST Handbook. Also get the Advancement Guidelines booklet. Unlike in Cub Scouts & Boy Scouts, "Advancement" is NOT a method of Venturing. This means that if your youth are not getting the Venturing Awards, it's NO BIG DEAL. You can get the Quality Unit for your Crew without having the kids 'advancing'. And your crew does NOT need to build its program around advancement. If they want to, that's THEIR (nor YOUR) choice. Venturing advancement falls into 2 groups: the "basic advancement awards" of Bronze (5 different ones), Gold, and Silver (Silver is considered the highest Venturing Award); and the "expert awards" of Ranger, Quest, and TRUST (which all build on specific Bronze Awards). You can only modify some of the Bronze Awards (yes for Arts & Hobbies, and I believe also Religious Life and Sports, but NO for Outdoor and Sea Scout). As the other poster noted, you still have to be sure the changed requirements are in the 'spirit' of the original. Its best to be sure your Venturers are aware of the awards and what need to do to earn them, just don't pressure them about it. Some leaders find that doing 'stealth advancement' works really good. After a few months of activity, point out to the Venturers all the things they have done, and what they need to do to complete the awards.

"I have not found anything that prohibits the wear of Wood Badge beads with a bolo tie. I have never worn the two together so I tried it an looked in the mirror and found that at least in my opinion it looks a bit strange. So I don't think I will wear the two together. " Ditto. For years as a youth and adult, I wore bolo ties rather then neckerchiefs with my uniform. Once I got my beads, I stopped wearing bolo ties and pretty much exclusively wear my WB beads along with my lodge beads & vigil triangle.

My experience down here is that if the troop does not have a mandated neckerchief (many down here don't), they don't care if a scout or scouter wears a neckerchief or bolo tie of their choice (btw, bolos are in no way restricted to adults). There are plenty of commerative neckerchiefs and bolos one can wear (high adventure, OA events, etc). That said, after seeing how many kids (and adults) wore their neckerchiefs and bolo slides at Jamboree, many need to learn that you do NOT button the top button of your shirt when wearing a bolo tie or neckerchief. The collar is worn open with both of them. One only buttons the top button if wearing a tie. This practice by many was a big mistake with the heat problems we had.

All- the following I received from the Chapter President of the APO Chapter I advise. feel free to pass along the information to other scouters. ===== Hi APO Brothers I am here in Hattiesburg, Mississippi volunteering with the American Red Cross. The local Boy Scouts council has been gracious enough to let us use some of their office space to process paperwork and such - and they need our help! The local boy scouts have suffered LOTS of damage from Hurricane Katrina, therefore The Pine Burr Area Council has created a Hurricane Katrina T-Shirt - for a total cost of 11.50 a shirt - and the money is being raised to help local scouting units rebuild the scouting equipment that was damaged by Hurricane Katrina. The shirt will be as follows: FRONT --- I survived (( picture of storm)) Katrina May God Be With All Victims BACK --- "..To HElp Other People At All Times..." - Excerpt from the Boy Scout Oath Pine Burr Area Council, Boy Scouts of America The Tshirts are $11.50 each, are available in sizes Youth Small, Youth Medium, Youth Large, Adult Small, Adult Medium, Adult Large, Adult X Large, Adult XX Large, and Adult XXX Large Orders are due by October 15th, 2005 You can send a check or money order - made payable to Boy Scouts of America - to Pine Burr Area Council 1318 Hardy Street Hattiesburg, MS 39401 or use your mastercard or via and fax the order to 601-582-5629 or call Nicholle @ 601-582-2326 for a phone order when submitting a T-shirt request please send your name, address, email, phone, # of shirts and sizes, and payment method If you guys have any questions about the Tshirts - call Nichole @ 601-582-2326 as I have limited email availability and little to no cell phone service! Just thought I would forward this information along to my APO brothers since we are founded on the principles of Boy SCouting, and these scouts REALLY need our help - and I know some of you guys collect different scouting items :-) Lots of Love, Kandi Osman aka "Sugar" 2005 - 2006 Alpha Delta Tau Chapter President

Once you are a Arrowman, you are always an Arrowman. However, I have never heard of a request like this. Typically, its the members of the OA ceremonial team who call out (we no longer use the term 'tap out') the candidates. I have never heard of those not on the team being involved in this OTHER then to 'mark' for the team the person to call out, usually by holding their sash over them.

Remember the Titans City Slickers (pay attention to Billy Crystal's character, what he learned from Curly, and how he affected the others afterwards) Dead Poet's Society

"Well, I, too, just completed my Ordeal (with my son, who also got called out at camp) - the pre-Ordeal and Ordeal ceremonies all included face-paint, loin-cloths with leggings (no boxers in sight) and, in general, beautiful regalia which made every effort to be authentic along with wonderful drum work. Both ceremonial teams did a great job. " OA National made a policy change several years ago forbidding the use of face-paint and wigs in OA ceremonies and dance team performances. You will not see this at NOAC (nor should you at Sectional events) "Question - I thought that OA was based on the Lenni Lenape (Delaware) tradition? That Vigil names are from that language? I gather the interest has expanded based on the geographical location of the OA lodge? " The OA was based on Delaware tradition, as that was the local tribe for the original lodge. A Lenni Lenape dictionary is given in the OA Handbook and many Lodges use it to get Vigil names (but its not required). However, the OA encourages that Lodge adopt the traditional and culture of their local tribes. You don't want OA Lodge around the country wearing generic plains indians stuff. Thus, most Lodges spend a lot of time and effort creating ceremonial outfits based on local tribal clothing AND using local languages for Vigil names. My home lodge has for years used the Seminole language for Vigil names. Other lodges do the same. "Also, having spent time in South and Central America - they cringe when we call ourselves "Americans" as if we have an exclusive right to it (as you do in one of your questions, Akaluga). Once you start down the PC road... " Too bad. "America" is part of the name of our country, thus, we are Americans. They need to get over that. USAians just doesn't work. "Yankee" doesn't work because *I'm* from the South.

"Wear it on one's spoof shirt? " Yes. Don't laugh. I someone at NOAC that had a scout uniform of nothing but spoof patches on it (spoof knots, csp, office patches, etc). Didn't know if I should laugh or puke.

"In order to stay "current" on your YPT training, you must take it every two years." The only problem is that I have yet to see this in writing. All the other certification training that expires, this is clearly shown on your training card. Red Cross CPR training expires after a year. That is clearly stated on the cards you get. Red Cross First Aid training & American Heart Association CPR training expires after 2 years. Again, its on your cert cards. Other BSA certification training (Safety Afloat, Safe Swim Defense, etc) that has expirations this is stated on the card. With YPT, you get the generic training card and no info on expiration. This is a pain. Thankfully, with the on-line YPT, this is easy to get re-certified. But I really wish they'd create a YPT card that clearly says this. Why is that so hard??

"Ours are held in october-November. When I was SPL, I had to contact the elections team and make an appointment. I don't believe it is the election team's responsibility to come to you." That may be how it works in your council/lodge. In most of the lodges I've worked with, that doesn't work. You have new troops that know nothing about the OA and wouldn't know who or how to contact for an election (OA election, what's that??), or troops that are 'out of touch' with the OA for various reasons (few if any youth involved, few if any adults involved, or adults who don't care about the OA). THUS, the Chapter Election Committee is charged with making the effort to contact each troop in their Chapter. If its found that they've missed some, I would think both the chapter and lodge leadership would see this as a problem and deal with it. Heck, some lodges have an issue that some troops don't want them to come do elections (we're stealing their boys...), so leaving it up to the troops to contact the lodge isn't the way to go. However, I do have to agree with some of the previous posters. The lodges I work with don't do elections all year round. they have one formal Ordeal (usually summer or early Fall), so elections are held in spring. Any other ordeals are 'make up' Ordeals for a handful of people conducted at a subsequent lodge event for those few people who for some reason missed the first ordeal. But as they say, 'your mileage may vary'.

"YPT has not changed for years, so what does "be up to date" mean?" Probably means that you have taken it recently (last year or two). If you attend National events like Jamboree or NOAC, you will be told that you must have taken YPT recently. Despite the fact that I've seen nothing in print, it seems that National expectes one to retake it. Since you can now take the generic adult YPT and the Venturing adult YPT on-line, its no longer a big deal to retake it.

Not quite sure of the reason for this question. Wood Badge beading ceremonies are public events. They are typically held at scouting events in front of other scouters, many not Wood Badgers. They are not restricted. Part of the reason for this is to let others know about WB and that completion of the ticket by that scouter.