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It will be several months before most of us would get to see it. Same happened with the new Guide to Advancement. A select group got to see it, but were not allow to show it to others before it was available on-line and then soon in print.

"A leader who doesn't earn the "natural" adjective is basically a guy with a title (or in BSA terms, a patch on his sleeve). One way or another he's been declared the leader, but does a terrible job actually providing any leadership. He's a de jure leader, not a de facto one (Beavah, did I spell them lawyerin' words right?). He's been granted some sort of official authority, but to the extent people follow him it's out of obligation rather than desire." Some people are leaders because they hold a position (or title or patch). Some people are leaders because of how they conduct themselves. These people MAY have an official position, but they lead thru their skills of leadership and NOT thru the position. Most people use the term "natural leader" for people who just somehow have the right attitude and skills naturally to be a leader. In my experience, these people are rare, but sometimes they emerge. Many people have the capacity to be a leader, but may need training and experience to bring out their abilities to be a leader. If you only focus on those who somehow already have these skills (ie, the so-called "natural leader"), you are short-changing the people who can (and should) be developed as a leader. And, yeah, there are some people who, regardless of how much training and experience you spend on them, they are poor leaders. But just because these people exist is no reason to pass over the none "natural leaders" who CAN be developed into leaders.

Back in the 40s and 50s they spoke of charter orgs having the 'whole scouting family': chartering a pack, troops, & post or ship. Recommended was having a single committee to oversee the whole thing. In other countries, (for instance the UK), they have the concept of a 'group': a pack, troop, etc under a single group, lead by a group scoutmaster, etc.

"MT: We're still trying to figure out the implications of this Venturing District. But it maps with "facts on the ground." Venturers aren't as geographically locked as Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts. They make tight associations with youth on the opposite ends of council (and area, region, nation, and world) and seek out activities in and provide service to districts other than their own. They have this proclivity to venture beyond district boundaries (go figure). We're just trying to tap that and make it work more smoothly for the unit leaders (who still are more than welcome to go to their local district roundtable if it suits them). " Also, with Venturing Crews & Sea Scout Ships, most district leadership doesn't know what to do with them, and there are usually too few in a district to run a decent district Venturing Roundtable. Also, there should be Venturing Officer Associations formed of the youth leadership in the crews to drive the program. Again, there are usually too few in a district to form these at that level, so you will see Council VOAs forming, which means you almost have a de facto council-wide 'venturing district'.

Its long been National policy that you are only allowed to be a member of ONE lodge. I've been involved with 2 councils, however, I am only a member of one lodge.

Scout Stuff wis the name of the book. Its about scout memorabilia, not BSA's on-line store. http://www.amazon.com/Boy-Scouts-America-Scout-Stuff/dp/0756688736/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326315356&sr=1-1

Have to agree. They didn't point out the 'other' high awards of scouting: Quartermaster, Ranger, Silver (both Explorer and Venturing). I was surprised by their selection of some insignia for the other programs.

Eagle92's excellent article is one I would agree with. First off, yeah, there are a LOT of arrowmen who have horrible outfit and poor knowledge. There ARE, however, many arrowmen who have great knowledge. Some (like me) are amateur historians/anthropologists and work hard to research things and share our knowledge. Several of us work with professionals in the field AND some of the local tribes, many of who respect us for the work we do. Many arrowmen are involved in historical re-enactments, many alongside 'real' native americans, and they don't have an issue with what we do and often appreciate the research work we do. AND I do know of several arrowmen who have gone off and become professional historians and anthropologists, and I think their interest was due to their exposure in scouting & the OA. One I know of is J. Anthony Paredes, who was a scout & arrowmen in Central Florida and who has done research on several southeastern tribe and whose work I believe helped the Poarch Creek Tribe get federal recognition. Jason Jackson is another arrowmen I know of from Florida who is now a anthropology professor. David Blackard is a another arrowmen who is a professional anthropologist and worked for many years for the Seminole Tribe of Florida. And there are several others like them out there.

"Interesting that when they are pushed on the issue they fall back on what as a defense---- that being selected for OA is an honor for adults. " Sigh. There are honors and then there are honors. Again, being selected for the OA is NOT like Silver Beaver, et al. An adults IS being honored by selection. But its NOT for what they have done (again and again, that is the purpose of honors like Silver Beaver et al), but because of what it is hoped they will bring to the Order and the youth in it. We do NOT want adults who will be 'sash and dash', who feel that getting in is the end of it, but will be willing to help the youth.

"Interesting point. Presumably female Scout Executives and District Executives are eligible for OA membership. And female adult Scout leaders. Just no female youth members. " Interesting point? Not really. To be eligible as a youth to join the OA (ie under 21) you must have First Class. This bars all female venturers. There is no problem with adult female scouters being selected. This was a chance that occurred about 20 years or so ago, when National opened the last 6 adult positions to females, and all the lodges in my area have many female arrowmen, many of whom are Vigil. Heck, my lodge has a female adviser and she's been doing a great job IMO. She was just tapped out for Vigil. As to this ongoing 'discussion', I will say that what SR540 is saying is how I view things as well. The reason for youth and adults to be in the Order are different. Adults need to understand it. Being selected as an adult should NOT be confused with getting Silver Beaver or the like. Most of us do a LOT more then drive kids to event, but what we do is support the youth in their program. Which is why we are advisers.

I thought troopmaster including Venturing stuff. But have no experience with it.

Bummer. Am a Toastmaster and was gearing up to give speeches such that I could earn the knot.

"What a shame! For thirty years I felt honored to have been nominated for OA as an adult. Now I discover that was a mistake and rather than feeling honored I should have been told my function was to be a driver and grunt laborer. " SP- you seem hellbent on finding some way to get upset about the Order. Rather then trying to come up with some explanation, I think it might be a good idea to go back to basics. Here is what the current "Guide for Officers and Advisors", an official publication of the Order says about adult selection into the order. QUOTE- Recommendations of the adult selection committee... will be candidates for induction, provided the following conditions are fulfilled: * Selection of the adult is based on the ability to perform the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and positions. * The individual will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order. * The adult leader's membership will provide a positive example for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge. END QUOTE QUOTE Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition. Selection should take place only when the adult's position in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. END QUOTE this may be found on page 21 under Membership Requirements. Instead of making any comments, I would just suggest you read this and think about it.

"Scouting is all about cheerful service." While this is true, there are some who don't get it. And sadly for some people you need to be a bit blunt about it. "But telling adults that you aren't wanted except as a car driver and grunt laborer is demeaning and entirely the wrong attitude, in my opinion. " You're entitled to your opinion. But the issue, IMO, isn't the attitude but maybe the expression of it. The thing is, as adults in the Order, our job is to advise and SUPPORT the youth in THEIR PROGRAM. Note that. Advise and support the youth. More so then Boy Scouting (certainly more so then Cubs), the OA is a YOUTH RUN program. And sadly there are some adults who don't get it. Let's be honest, we all know of the troops who are 'boy led' in name only, who are really adult led. Most lodges I would hope would try to be diplomatic about it, but sometimes we have to be blunt. Sometimes we have to have 'adult meetings' with all of the adults to ensure that everyone gets the message (especially important after an Ordeal when we have a new group of adults who join). Most get it. But you always have the few, especially the new adults who had never been in the OA as a youth who don't get it. So we try to explain it. And sometimes it get to the point where we have to say the above to them. Frankly, I don't think most old time adults get offended by that attitude. Often times because most of us understand our role in the OA, and we're usually among the first to pull aside an adult who doesn't get it and help explain things to them.

"> "Frankly, I'd consider this ample good reason for a troop to drop OA. You're handing adults a broom and a dustpan and asking them to smile. "I am decidedly unimpressed whenever I hear someone repeating this line. " SP- wrong attitude. The point of this is that Adults are NOT nominated to the OA as an award or recognition, which is something that happens too many times. We have awards and recognitions for adults (DAM, Silver critters, etc etc.). OA Membership is NOT. As adults, we are there to help the OA and the youth to succeed. Most of the active and dedicated adults in the OA are among of the more hardworking and dedicated adults, and who do this cheerfully and without an expectation of recognition or honors. THAT is the kind of adults we want. NOT the ones who want another patch on their uniform or a notch on their belt or the like.

Have to echo what SR540Beaver. there is no requirement for 2-deep leaders from the troops for OA events in my section to my knowledge.

Eagle92 hit all the points I would have made. Especially #1 and 2.

I have a published copy of the "Insignia Guide". (it may be the last one) It shows 2 different sleeve placements for the Centennial uniform (ie the one with the sleeve pocket) and the ODL and I guess the new uniform (ie the ones WITHOUT the sleeve pocket). This is important, as the placement of the office patches, trained strip, and commissioner arrowhead will change depending on whether or not the uniform as a sleeve pocket or not.

"Does anyone know of a skeptical analysis of Leadership Development theory that links concepts like "innovation," "thinking outside the box," and "group development" theory with magical thinking and the recent 7.7 trillion dollar bailout?" Well, of course not. The bailout has ZILCH to do with those concepts. It had more to do with poor economic ideas and political thinking. Also, what IS "leadership development theory"??? Does it exist or are you just making it up? There are various concepts about leadership development. Some are complementary, some are not. There is no one end all be all in leadership development thinking.

"But after the ordeal, there's not much for the OA members other than to say they are in the OA or to help administer OA." Really? Yeah, for most lodges, ordeals can be their biggest events, but its not their own event. Keep in mind Lodges are told NOT to have too many events. But most good lodges will have about 4 weekend events a year. You will have ordeal, service events at camp (before and/or after summer camp), work/fellowship events in the fall and spring, and usually a banquet. The Lodges are encouraged now to do more service work in the community. There is the One Day of Service in the Fall, many lodges may still be doing 'scoutreach' events aimed at disadvantaged youth. There may be other service work done by chapters. There are the annual Sectional Conclave/Conferences, which can be big events. (varies from section to section). And you have the National events. Not just NOAC, but the national events in between (Jamboree service work, the recent ArrowCorp and SummitCorp work. My section had its own version call 4-Core that was fairly successful).

How can the venturing uniform go "back to the scout uniform", when it never WAS the scout uniform??? Sounds like an unfounded rumor to me. Heard NOTHING about this on any on-line forum. I think we would have. Venturing uniform still available from Scoutstuff. Have the Scout Shop people back up this claim with something official and in writing.

well, its too late to complain. Sometime after this was announced, we finally got 'the rest of the story'. Apparently this came from the National Committee. They gave an ultimatum to the National Youth Cabinet: either the VLA Awards become youth-only, or they go away entirely. Well, I'd rather have them youth-only then totally gone, but I think the National Committee was wrong on this. As I've said before, there are many dedicated adults in venturing who, because they don't have high enough positions, will be more or less automatically overlooked for other adult awards like the DAM or Silver criters. For instance, a hard working and dedicated assistant advisor (be their crew, council, area or region) would have been a shoo-in for a VLA, but would be totally overlooked for a Silver critter.

"If the CD or staff are involved there will be no ceremony." Well, don't know how its done in your council, but in mine, the ceremony isn't necessarily done by the CD & staff. In my council, it goes like this: The scribe for the course is informed you have completed the course, thus getting the records updated and releasing the beads, woggle, necker. Arrangements are then made with the participant regarding the ceremony (as I noted, when and where). Usually the guide is the point person for this. And wood badgers are lined up to put it on. Ideally your troop guide should be involved (its a nice touch). Other available wood badgers are found to do the ceremony (its not a big one), and this may or may not include the CD and their staff. I know for the patrol members I guided that I was involved and 1 or 2 other wood badges, but not our CD. It was no big deal. I've seen ceremonies for 1 person to a couple of dozen. Biggest was the many we beaded after our WB reunion. Might even have been 2-3 dozen for that one.

"So let me get this straight. You plan your own ceremony??????? " Not sure what you mean by "plan your own ceremony". The Wood Badge people will plan and carry out the ceremony. You, the candidate, does not do this. What is usually done is they ASK you WHEN & WHERE you would like the ceremony to be done. Most people want the ceremony done at a time and place that is most meaningful to them. One patrol I knew worked to all get their tickets done, and the ceremony was held for the whole group at a Camporee (at a location that anyone could come to, but no so as it interjected into the program). Many will get theirs after our annual Wood Badge Breakfast. I know of people who have them at Troop Court of Honors, Roundtables, and similar events.

Oh, please. Your childish hatred of leadership skills is silly. Anyone can use leadership skills, from the patrol leader up to the CEO. Such skills are not limited to those in the business/corporate environment. We know a LOT more about leadership then in B-P's time. I doubt the IOC issue was with "leadership skills". I won't be surprised if the problem was a bunch of business types trying to apply business management concepts (which, btw, leadership and leadership development is NOT part of) in a non-profit group. That is usually a recipe for disaster.