Ekmiranda

Hi all, Well it seems that you are kind of stuck in between a rock and a hard place. (and his younger son was the grand winner in the entire Pack, and has won every year he's been in scouts, but that's another rant, and I digress). My problem with this is, he wasn't there. He was off at a merit badge college run by the Council. His parents registered his car for him (Mom is the committee chair, fwiw) in his absence. Mom is the CC and the younger Scout has won every year I have beeen in almost the same situation. In the rules it stated that if the Cub is not present the car may run but "Can not run as a Quilifying car" In the situation that I was in we had this younger scout win every year from Tiger all the way up to W II. It's a rough situation and should be addressed. Ithe car that I am talking about was not built at all by the child. It was very clear that the father did the entire car. Down to the paint and was modified above the rules. The problem was that these modifacations were not picked up or over looked by the judges. At that point the car can only be thrown out of the race by the CM and the CC. But they both have to agree. Everyone knew who was going to win and that the car was modified the said parent was also the one who was holding the track. In this case the CC and CM could not say anything as we are husband and wife. What I did do was let the parent know that he was caught and that the car should be disquilified and pointed out the modifacations. But for the sake of the Child's embarisment nothing was going to be done. Thankfully the UC was also present and watched what went on. Did nothing just watched. Later in the week I found out that the parent went to council and demanded that I be removed from my position and also removed from scouting as an unfit leader. He was also backed by the Assistant W II who is his best friend. Nothing was done to me and nothing was even said. The UC and COR sat with him and just paides him lip serveses. What I am getting at is weight your options and really think about it. You might think about just letting the cubs run in the race and have a completly different arena and time for the older scouts and parents. Always remember it is only about the Cubs.(P.S. I am sure you know that otherwise you would not be upset packs should have more pasionate leaders as you) YIS EKM

Thanks Folks, Its going to be a really tuff ride> I am meeting with the x-CM tonight and he is going to hand off what ever stuff he has. I will be sorting through everything over the next few days. My big concern is the awards as is the CC also. I am hoping that there have been some kind of record keeping here and not the throw it in the shoe box type thing.

Hello All, I have been involved in martial arts for several years and have brought my dojos Demo team down to my units pack night on many occasions with wonderful success. Many of the kids have signed up with the dojo and are well on their way to becoming great students. In any good run dojo no matter what form it is the mantra is always to walk away from a potential fight. And if you cant to just defend yourself and subdue your opponent to the point where you can walk away. The lessons that are learned and the philosophies that are taught are things that will never be learned in any other place except at a dojo. There should be no issues as long as the demo team is doing just that a demonstration. The line is crossed when the kids get involved in the demo and insurance issue will come into play if someone gets hurt. And the BSA umbrella policy will not hold up. As far as a tour permit my district requires a tour permit no matter where we go local or distant. And if they disapprove they will not approve the permit. The child in question should get the awards ASAP be it Cubs or Scouts period. If the CM disagrees he is wrong and it should be brought to his attention. There is no question about this; instant recognition is one of the first things a child looks for. Too often this instant gratification is completely over looked in the Childs life at home and in school we cannot and should not deny this as it states in the CM & SM hand books. I was in the same situation and came to the conclusion that the boy earned it he should get it end of the discussion. Although there are many CMS and SMs out there that feel different and parents alike this is one rule that should never ever be broken. YIS EKMiranda

Hi all, Well for those who know me know the situation my wife and I went through in the cub program. If you dont and are interested to find out look for the thread Asst. CM problems and I have resigned as CM. Anyway as you know I have decided to stay on as A S M in my sons troop. Things have been good and I am happy. As for the wife she has stepped down and finally got away from that sick pack. Things have gone very good a lot less stress in the house and my son has reached First class and has taken Den Chief Training and also, what I am most proud of has been nominated and approved for the OA. It seems however I just cant get away from the Cubs Scout program. The wife called up council to ask a few questions about our son and the DE asked if she would be interested in helping out with a Pack that is on the verge of folding because of the lack of support of leadership and leaders that are in place but are flying blind. So we talked and came to a conclusion that she should help in whatever capacity she could. We went to the parents meet to find out what was actually going on. It turns out that this is a much unorganized pack with 4 leaders a CM who is leaving this week and a CC who wants no part of it anymore. A total of 14 children, no recruitment in place there are finance issues and a bunch of other issues. I could go on but I am sure you all get the point. The DE, X-CC, and the X-CM the Bear leaders and the New UC, my wife and I were at the meeting. WOW this is a sad situation I was thinking and the boys they deserve so much more. At the end of the meeting the new UC and the DE asked us what we thought. As if they did not know HA! We are both back in the saddle again as CM & CC for a very distort CS pack with the goal to build this up and make it a prospering and functional pack again. Pray for us. What did Michael Corleone say in the Godfather part 3 Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in Y I S EKM

Dont give up hope dedicated leaders as you and your team are hard to find. I think the first thing you need to do is contact your Charter Organization Rep. and talk open a dialog. Next contact your Unit Commissioner. Both of these people are put in place to help the unit. Also Council should have records of the advancements. If not all you can do is try to get what the old CM has and hope for the best. Start a Training program and get everyone trained. YP first and then NLE, LS Than the rest can come as time goes on. Go on line and see what is offered I believe YP and NLE are offered on line. Try and get the parents Youth protection trained. Dont forget to draw on them. They can be of great resource when needed and if they are trained half the battle is over. Go to the Scout shop and pick up the leaders hand book. It is also on line as a fast reference. The Boys records should go to Council and they should have them on file. Both the registration forms and the scout shop should have any advancement forms on file. The Leaders hand book has everything you need to structure the leaders organization and pack and any info that you might need. I hope some of this helps. Dont get overwhelmed at times it will seem that you are taking a drink of water out of a fire hydrant but it wont last things will smooth out. Depend on your leaders and remember the most important thing is to delegate and not feel that you need to do everything. You will burn out.

Dear Gene, I know posting on the site opens things up to all different types of interpatations. People in general tend to read into things as I also do. Trust me on this when I tell you what I write is what I mean. There is nothing to read into. Please do not put words in my mouth as that is childish. If I wanted to say wife I would have typed it. Yes the CC is my wife and in the 4 years of running the pack we have never had a problem seperating the to. I we are adults and able to distinguish the two apart. EKMiranda

"I have read your most thread and then re-read it again, mentally replacing "CC" with "my wife". It was an entirely different article! There is a old Taoist saying "Once we strive for importance, we become unimportant" Food for thought." It seems that yes indeed you have read and re-read and replaced the verbage to which ever way you like. Thats OK you are intitled to your opioin. But the thing you have not be able to understand is that I am not and never will strive for importance or take credit for anything that I ever do in scouting.( you are talking about a power trip) I guess you have missed the point completly. A good leader never takes credit he gives it to all around him. I have and always will strive for only one thing in scouting and that is to make the program and the experiance for the boys as best as possible. The day that I ask for a pat on the back or say that I should get credit for that is the day that I will walk away completly. EKMiranda

Dear Friends, There is so much more that goes on behind the lines that the average den leader or parent does not know about. Which I am sure you will all agree on. I understand and agree with all that is being said here. The bigger the pack the more work needs to go into it. But even when the pack is a smaller unit the same work needs to be done but just not on such a grand scale. These issues and circumstances that I have gone through have been test for me and my purpose in scouting. The Cub program in my opinion is the most difficult program to run and the most important. I feel that the CM and the CC must set a program in place that is fun educational and must prepare the boys for the future and prepare them for the scouting program in the Boy Scouts that lies ahead of them. Reflecting back on the issues that have taken place and all the things that one thinks about and reads into, and looking deep into myself and what I want to do I have come to a conclusion. I feel I still have things to offer to the program and want to help and contribute to the growth of the boys. I will be staying on as the ASM in my sons Troop. It is a solid Troop and there are no ego trips and everyone knows their place. Also the fact that my son does not want me to leave the Troop is persuasive. He is 12 and enjoys the program and will be achieving the rank of Star this summer. I could not do anything that would hinder that. I would never be able to forgive myself. Yours In Scouting EKMiranda

I am sorry this is so long but there have been ongoing issues I am writing this letter because of the lack of scouting honesty from the Leaders all the way up from the Tiger leader to the Webelos II leader. The Unit Commissioner and the Chartered Organization Representative can only go by the information that they are receiving. When I took this pack over as Cub Master I knew nothing about scouting and received no help from anyone. I fumbled my way through Blue & Gold and the first year. The second year was better and the third good and the forth is when things started to happen that spiraled down to me putting in my resignation. We had issues from the beginning with the pack as it was run like a good ole boys club when I took it over and I got a lot of resistants when I tried bring in new ideas and open it up to women. Our CC had died in the second year and my wife had partitioned to become the CC and was voted into the position by the CO Also In the beginning of the second year we lost our UC and went almost an entire year without one. If it was not for the persistence of me and the CC we would not have gotten one. The COR was of no help and as far as I knew was not perusing the issue. When I asked at Council what was going on I was told that there are other units that were in need of UCs and my unit was being run fine and there were no issues so there was no need to put a UC in at the moment. This response made me feel good to know that Council thought I was doing a good job. . I am a dedicated leader to the scouting program and am also an ASM to my sons troop and have attended W/B. My wife and I are respected in the Scouting community in our area. And at all times have had nothing but the best welfare of the boys in the forefront of our mind. I have always stated if at any point in time I felt or someone else felt I was not doing my job as CM to the best of my ability I would willingly step down and hand the pack over to another. In the middle of the 07 Scouting season I took on a new ACM. I and my wife and the COR thought he would be a good addition to the leadership. I was wrong this man proved to create more problems internally in the pack than he was worth. Not to go into a long drawn out story he was loud obnoxious and disrespective to leaders and Cub families. He would take it upon himself to make announcements and inform the pack of things that were not talked about and confirmed. He had also single handedly kill the popcorn sales for the pack in the year and that he was there. In June the COR came to a leaders meeting and after the meeting I walk the COR out and was told that he was not the right type of person for the job. Issues continued with the ACM to the point that the ACM walked out of a leaders meeting. CC and I wanted him removed from the pack. The Webelos I Leaders had come to us requesting that we keep this whole matter under wraps and settle it without going to the UC and the COR and that there be a committee meeting held to vote on what to do with this man. Not thinking that it would go the way that it did. It was stated at this meeting by the CC what the discussion and vote was to be about and that anything that was discussed at this meeting stay behind closed doors. All who were present at this meeting had agreed to that request. I was also present at this committee meeting. I had told committee members things that had happened that they were not aware of. The meeting went on for about 1 hour and the outcome was to make the recommendation to the COR to have ACM removed. The CC made the recommendation and a rough draft letter was sent to the CC from the COR Stating that the CO was removing him. This caused complete disharmony in the leadership of the pack and all the leaders looked at the CC and the CM as it was all our doing. Our Webelos I leaders is a good friend of the ACM and was completely unhappy with the outcome of the meeting and felt he needed to inform the leadership of the entire pack the outcome of the meeting and his interpretation of what went on. He had put the committee members in a bad situation and betrayed the trust that we had in him. He further went on to explain why he felt the decision should be reversed and questioned the decision of the CO and Council and the recommendation that was made and led all the leaders to believe that it was all a personal agenda of the CC and the CM to have this man removed. The CC responded with a response that was only directed to the people that were at the meeting and the UC and COR. That following week the UC called the CC and informed her that the UC and the COR wanted to have a meeting just to make sure we were all on the same page. We were also told that there have been two formal complaints made to council about the ACM and numerous unofficial ones made by parents of cubs and also hear say that was going around inner circles at council and that this last issue was the straw that broke the camels back.. At this same meeting we meaning the CC and CM were told that we have 100% backing of the CO and Council. In the same breath we were also told that we have been doing an excellent job and the CO wants us to continue in our positions. The COR also stated that the CO reviews the goings on of the pack on a monthly basis and if the CO felt that I was not doing my job or running the pack the way they wanted it I would have been asked to step down. This meeting had occurred on 20th of Jan. On January 21, 2007 I received an email from my Wolf leader stating that he had called a leaders meeting and this leaders meeting was to be a TEAM BUILDING meeting to resort the moral of the pack. This came as a surprise to me and the CC as we were not aware of anything of the sort it was not run by us at all and as far as the COR and the UC were concerned they were not asked either. The UC and the COR were concerned and inquired about this team building meeting. They were told by all that it was nothing but that a team building meeting. The CC also called up the wolf leader and when he was asked she was told the same thing. She also expressed her concern that a meeting be called to order without consulting her first. The COR and the UC felt that it was not needed for them to be at this meeting as it was billed as a team building meeting. On January 27th we arrived at the team building meeting. It was anything but that. It turned out to be a witch hunt and inquisition breaking the CC down and intimidate her to the point of stepping down. Everyone at this meeting had prepared accusations as to why the CC should not be in the position that she is in. The main agenda was to remove her and call for a vote of no confidence. The person leading this inquisition was Webelos I leader the same person who was UN happy with the decision that the committee made at the priory meeting. The leaders at the meeting were accusing the CC and the CM of having agendas of their own and not having the boys best interest at heart and being in collusion with each other. They also went as far as to bring other packs By-Laws and started to quote rules out of them. At one point they even brought the CC to tears because of their accusations. I wanted nothing more to do with this pack because of all the lies and deceit. After calming the CC down and going home I drafted a letter stating my resignation and sent it out to the UC, COR, and all the leaders. The leaders had contrived this head hunt and had lied to everyone of their intent. That night the CC got an email from the UC asking her to call. I was not privy to the conversation but I do know that the UC was appalled by what happened and told the CC that she had no idea of what happened and that she was told by Webelos leader himself that it was to be a team building meeting and nothing else. She also told the CC that the CM cant step down as the Pack needed a CM to re-Charter. I reluctantly signed the Charter. Only on behave of the boys did I do this I did not want the pack to dissolve. The next day January 28th I received an email from my COR stating that I call him ASAP at work. I did and I spoke with him and told him what had taking place at this so called Team Building meeting. I told him that they brought the CC to tears. He was also appalled and could not believe what I was telling him. In defense for the COR he told me that he had wished that I would have talked to him before submitting my resignation letter because it cannot be reversed. He did say to send out another email stating that the CO at this time would not accept my letter of resignation and that I am still CM. And to the next leaders meeting would be a continuation of the team building meeting would be held on February 6th at the church. That never happened. All issues would be discussed and closed at that point. Once again he reaffirmed the total support that the CO and Council would give us. . I found out later that an additional leaders meeting was held without the knowledge of the CC and the CM. I got home that night and called him and had a short conversation with him. He told me that he was going to set the law down and tell all the leaders that this is the way things are going to be and if they dont like it well... He also stated that all this rederic was coming from the X ACM and said that he is feeding these leaders false information and manipulating them to his advantage to set them all against us. He also told me that this man is a psychotic person and will stop at nothing. And as last time told me how important it was that I and the CC know that the CO has 250 Men strong standing behind us. And that this pack was here long before the leaders and it will be here long after the leaders. He told me that he has been in this position before and has handled it and that we could rebuild the pack. I got a phone call at about 6:30Friday the 1st of Feb. from the COR telling me that we need to have a meeting. We met in the morning at the dinner the meeting consisted of the COR, CC and CM. At this meeting things seemed to turn around completely. I was told that the CO now accepts my resignation and that I was not giving all the leaders any information. I was not fit for the position anymore and the biggest thing was that the leaders who so desperately wanted the CC to leave are now saying they have no issues with her and welcome her to stay on as CC. I was also told that the majority of the parents were displeased with the program and that they were going to bring their children elsewhere. A total in 22 children in all were ready to leave the pack. I was also told that council knew about this and nothing was ever said until now. The COR stated that he could not let this happen to the pack and that they were now going to step in and restructure the pack. As I have stated before that if need be I would do whatever needed to be done for the welfare of the boys. That has always been and still is my main concern. I am not upset that that the COR has now accepted my resignation. I did write it and I did submit it. The thing that is bothering me is the way in which things were done and the way it was handled. Not having to quote the Scout oath, motto and law, as we all know it by heart. There has been nothing but deceit back stabbing and lying going on here all the way from the Tiger leader all the way up to the COR and the UC. It went from one week ago the leaders wanting to have the CC head on a platter making her break down and cry to a meeting at a dinner telling the CM that the CO accepts his resignation and that the leaders welcome the CC to stay on. In short there is something very wrong here. All the things that have happened over the past week two weeks do not add up. How can these leaders still be left in the position that they are in and be held accountable to run a proper BSA program and be trusted to care for the welfare of the children when they all cannot show the respect trust and honesty to their up line? I do know full well that the CO has the final say about anything in the pack. I am now pondering the entire BSA structure and weather I want to be part of it on the Boy Scout level.

I am writing this letter because of the lack of scouting honesty from the Leaders all the way up from the Tiger leader to the Webelos II leader. The Unit Commissioner and the Chartered Organization Representative can only go by the information that they are receiving. When I took this pack over as Cub Master I knew nothing about scouting and received no help from anyone. I fumbled my way through Blue & Gold and the first year. The second year was better and the third good and the forth is when things started to happen that spiraled down to me putting in my resignation. We had issues from the beginning with the pack as it was run like a good ole boys club when I took it over and I got a lot of resistants when I tried bring in new ideas and open it up to women. Our CC had died in the second year and my wife had partitioned to become the CC and was voted into the position by the CO Also In the beginning of the second year we lost our UC and went almost an entire year without one. If it was not for the persistence of me and the CC we would not have gotten one. The COR was of no help and as far as I knew was not perusing the issue. When I asked at Council what was going on I was told that there are other units that were in need of UCs and my unit was being run fine and there were no issues so there was no need to put a UC in at the moment. This response made me feel good to know that Council thought I was doing a good job. . I am a dedicated leader to the scouting program and am also an ASM to my sons troop and have attended W/B. My wife and I are respected in the Scouting community in our area. And at all times have had nothing but the best welfare of the boys in the forefront of our mind. I have always stated if at any point in time I felt or someone else felt I was not doing my job as CM to the best of my ability I would willingly step down and hand the pack over to another. In the middle of the 07 Scouting season I took on a new ACM. I and my wife and the COR thought he would be a good addition to the leadership. I was wrong this man proved to create more problems internally in the pack than he was worth. Not to go into a long drawn out story he was loud obnoxious and disrespective to leaders and Cub families. He would take it upon himself to make announcements and inform the pack of things that were not talked about and confirmed. He had also single handedly kill the popcorn sales for the pack in the year and that he was there. In June the COR came to a leaders meeting and after the meeting I walk the COR out and was told that he was not the right type of person for the job. Issues continued with the ACM to the point that the ACM walked out of a leaders meeting. CC and I wanted him removed from the pack. The Webelos I Leaders had come to us requesting that we keep this whole matter under wraps and settle it without going to the UC and the COR and that there be a committee meeting held to vote on what to do with this man. Not thinking that it would go the way that it did. It was stated at this meeting by the CC what the discussion and vote was to be about and that anything that was discussed at this meeting stay behind closed doors. All who were present at this meeting had agreed to that request. I was also present at this committee meeting. I had told committee members things that had happened that they were not aware of. The meeting went on for about 1 hour and the outcome was to make the recommendation to the COR to have ACM removed. The CC made the recommendation and a rough draft letter was sent to the CC from the COR Stating that the CO was removing him. This caused complete disharmony in the leadership of the pack and all the leaders looked at the CC and the CM as it was all our doing. Our Webelos I leaders is a good friend of the ACM and was completely unhappy with the outcome of the meeting and felt he needed to inform the leadership of the entire pack the outcome of the meeting and his interpretation of what went on. He had put the committee members in a bad situation and betrayed the trust that we had in him. He further went on to explain why he felt the decision should be reversed and questioned the decision of the CO and Council and the recommendation that was made and led all the leaders to believe that it was all a personal agenda of the CC and the CM to have this man removed. The CC responded with a response that was only directed to the people that were at the meeting and the UC and COR. That following week the UC called the CC and informed her that the UC and the COR wanted to have a meeting just to make sure we were all on the same page. We were also told that there have been two formal complaints made to council about the ACM and numerous unofficial ones made by parents of cubs and also hear say that was going around inner circles at council and that this last issue was the straw that broke the camels back.. At this same meeting we meaning the CC and CM were told that we have 100% backing of the CO and Council. In the same breath we were also told that we have been doing an excellent job and the CO wants us to continue in our positions. The COR also stated that the CO reviews the goings on of the pack on a monthly basis and if the CO felt that I was not doing my job or running the pack the way they wanted it I would have been asked to step down. This meeting had occurred on 20th of Jan. On January 21, 2007 I received an email from my Wolf leader stating that he had called a leaders meeting and this leaders meeting was to be a TEAM BUILDING meeting to resort the moral of the pack. This came as a surprise to me and the CC as we were not aware of anything of the sort it was not run by us at all and as far as the COR and the UC were concerned they were not asked either. The UC and the COR were concerned and inquired about this team building meeting. They were told by all that it was nothing but that a team building meeting. The CC also called up the wolf leader and when he was asked she was told the same thing. She also expressed her concern that a meeting be called to order without consulting her first. The COR and the UC felt that it was not needed for them to be at this meeting as it was billed as a team building meeting. On January 27th we arrived at the team building meeting. It was anything but that. It turned out to be a witch hunt and inquisition breaking the CC down and intimidate her to the point of stepping down. Everyone at this meeting had prepared accusations as to why the CC should not be in the position that she is in. The main agenda was to remove her and call for a vote of no confidence. The person leading this inquisition was Webelos I leader the same person who was UN happy with the decision that the committee made at the priory meeting. The leaders at the meeting were accusing the CC and the CM of having agendas of their own and not having the boys best interest at heart and being in collusion with each other. They also went as far as to bring other packs By-Laws and started to quote rules out of them. At one point they even brought the CC to tears because of their accusations. I wanted nothing more to do with this pack because of all the lies and deceit. After calming the CC down and going home I drafted a letter stating my resignation and sent it out to the UC, COR, and all the leaders. The leaders had contrived this head hunt and had lied to everyone of their intent. That night the CC got an email from the UC asking her to call. I was not privy to the conversation but I do know that the UC was appalled by what happened and told the CC that she had no idea of what happened and that she was told by Webelos leader himself that it was to be a team building meeting and nothing else. She also told the CC that the CM cant step down as the Pack needed a CM to re-Charter. I reluctantly signed the Charter. Only on behave of the boys did I do this I did not want the pack to dissolve. The next day January 28th I received an email from my COR stating that I call him ASAP at work. I did and I spoke with him and told him what had taking place at this so called Team Building meeting. I told him that they brought the CC to tears. He was also appalled and could not believe what I was telling him. In defense for the COR he told me that he had wished that I would have talked to him before submitting my resignation letter because it cannot be reversed. He did say to send out another email stating that the CO at this time would not accept my letter of resignation and that I am still CM. And to the next leaders meeting would be a continuation of the team building meeting would be held on February 6th at the church. That never happened. All issues would be discussed and closed at that point. Once again he reaffirmed the total support that the CO and Council would give us. . I found out later that an additional leaders meeting was held without the knowledge of the CC and the CM. I got home that night and called him and had a short conversation with him. He told me that he was going to set the law down and tell all the leaders that this is the way things are going to be and if they dont like it well... He also stated that all this rederic was coming from the X ACM and said that he is feeding these leaders false information and manipulating them to his advantage to set them all against us. He also told me that this man is a psychotic person and will stop at nothing. And as last time told me how important it was that I and the CC know that the CO has 250 Men strong standing behind us. And that this pack was here long before the leaders and it will be here long after the leaders. He told me that he has been in this position before and has handled it and that we could rebuild the pack. I got a phone call at about 6:30Friday the 1st of Feb. from the COR telling me that we need to have a meeting. We met in the morning at the dinner the meeting consisted of the COR, CC and CM. At this meeting things seemed to turn around completely. I was told that the CO now accepts my resignation and that I was not giving all the leaders any information. I was not fit for the position anymore and the biggest thing was that the leaders who so desperately wanted the CC to leave are now saying they have no issues with her and welcome her to stay on as CC. I was also told that the majority of the parents were displeased with the program and that they were going to bring their children elsewhere. A total in 22 children in all were ready to leave the pack. I was also told that council knew about this and nothing was ever said until now. The COR stated that he could not let this happen to the pack and that they were now going to step in and restructure the pack. As I have stated before that if need be I would do whatever needed to be done for the welfare of the boys. That has always been and still is my main concern. I am not upset that that the COR has now accepted my resignation. I did write it and I did submit it. The thing that is bothering me is the way in which things were done and the way it was handled. Not having to quote the Scout oath, motto and law, as we all know it by heart. There has been nothing but deceit back stabbing and lying going on here all the way from the Tiger leader all the way up to the COR and the UC. It went from one week ago the leaders wanting to have the CC head on a platter making her break down and cry to a meeting at a dinner telling the CM that the CO accepts his resignation and that the leaders welcome the CC to stay on. In short there is something very wrong here. All the things that have happened over the past week two weeks do not add up. How can these leaders still be left in the position that they are in and be held accountable to run a proper BSA program and be trusted to care for the welfare of the children when they all cannot show the respect trust and honesty to their up line? I do know full well that the CO has the final say about anything in the pack. I am now pondering the entire BSA structure and weather I want to be part of it on the Boy Scout level.

We do not have anything to do with the money the checks need a double sig. and I am one and the Treasurer is the other. My wife is not on the account.

Scouting is a uniformed organization and as such I feel that a full uniform should be worn at all times by leaders. How can you get a child to wear his uniform if his leader will not?

Well folks we have an outcome. I will try my best to explain. The CC called a committee meeting and I was also there as our by-laws allow. The topic was what to do with the ACM.The meeting went on for about 1 1/2 hours the outcome was to make the recamendation to the COR to remove him. The CC called and told the COR what the out come was and he would take over from there. But he and the UC wanted to have a meeting with the CC and CM to all be on the same page. At this meeting we meaning the CC and CM found out that this was the straw that broke the camels back. There have been 2 formal complaints made by parents to district council and numerous other complaints that were not formally made about this man. He has gone to the scout shop in our area and made demands and gotten loud with the sales people. There have been other things which the COR felt it was not important for him to disclose for the boy and parents sake. So he is no longer a registered leader in the pack or area. Now we are in the process of doing damage control as he is still a parent and is spreading rumors to leaders and throughtout the pack. This person is a minipulative spightful person and I have heard will stop at nothing to take over the pack. His Name is RED FLAGGED and they know full well all about him. I want to thank all of you for your continueing input and advice you are all great people and Scouters thanks again. On another note my wife and I have had concerns about what all of you have said about H/W team as CC & CM and have spoken with our UC and COR. They seem to feel that we are doing a great job and have been told that if one of us were to try and step down the COR would not accept our resignation. Go Figure?We were told by them both that they are behind us 100% Thanks again for all you have done YIS EKMiranda

Trust me I know that Thats why I am trying to have him removed and the only one who can do that is the COR or DE

Beavah, Just for clarifacation ( This is the CM responding ) Thanks for the check. I understand the issues and understand the husband and wife issies also. The pack had these issues before I came on board. Both my wife and I have a very close relationship with the UC and COR and this team was blessed by the COR and the organization itself. The UC came on board afterwards. We are a couple that is able to seperate the Husband / Wife issues and when Scouting is concerned we talk as CC and CM. We find that we get more accomplished that way. And only one of us is on the Account which needs a double signiture on the checks. With all due respect Beavah I did work with the ACM for about a month or so as an active parent and all things seemed OK. Cystal balls are hard to come by in this day and age . LOL My pack is of a medium size with 40 boys and adout 13 total leaders in all. Are leader/comm. meetings size about 7-10 people a month. Issue sounds like someone who doesn't want to collaborate and just wants to take charge. That can be a resource if put in da right position in the right kind of unit, or a pain in the a** if unchecked. You comment is true; in talking to a Leader last night I found out that the ACM wants the CM position and also is power hungry. He stated to her that He will not except another position. he will either leave or take the CM position or stay where he is regardless of what he is told. I am in no way worried about the status of my CM position or the fact of what was said. Just want to let you know that you pinned the tail on the donkey. LOL P.S. CC spoke with the UC and meeting is being set up between all parties (CC, CM, ACM, UC, COR ) EKM

I agree and that is all I am trying to say. It is not even so much as an ownership as pride in having a good pack as apose to a great pack. But as in all things there is a fine line that always needs to be watched. We make statements of ownership in all that we do. My car who owns it the bank really does My house the bank. These are all phrases that are made each day and not to be take to heart.

technically, the ACMs and DLs do not attend Pack committee meetings...because they are not members of the Committee. The CM attends as their representative, but technically he is not on the committee, either. The CM and CC both report to the COR, equally. At least that's the way it was last time I was trained. In my way of thinking the CM is analogous to the SPL and the DLs are the patrol leaders. Program should be planned by that group and presented to the committee for approval. Then the committee goes to work to finance it, recruit new members, monitor and process advancements, etc. That could be part of the problem...too many people at the Committee meetings mucking up the works." They are committee/ leader meetings not just committee meetings please re read the original post EKMiranda (or whoever) - This is not YOUR Pack!! (Although this is an ongoing problem with husband/wife, CM/CC, pairs) you consistently refer to it as YOURS) This Pack BELONGS to your Charter Org (weather they acknowledge this or not) Get over yourself and learn to work with other people! First off my wife used the account to post the question (Big deal Try to think out of the box broaden your mind) If you have looked at past posts you would have been able to figure that out. Secondly the H/W team has worked for the past 4-5 years thirdly peoples personalities dont always show their true colors right away yes me as the CM did choose him and did recommend him. But as the old saying goes you cant judge a book by its cover. And P.S. I know the Pack is not mine I know who owns it. After honing it and becoming so close to the boys and the leaders you at times come to think of it as yours. If more people or should I say leaders had the passion my wife and I for this pack there might be less problem with packs And as for the dealing with people I do on a daily basis and also in Cubs and Scouts so before you make statements that you know nothing about you might want to hold your tongue. Every situation is different as are peoples personalities. I know this is your opinion and everyone has a right to it but as we tell our 12 year old son if you have nothing nice or constructive to say it is best to not say anything at all.

Because last time I checked Gold Winger, Cub Scouts is a volunteer organization... ?

I am the Pack Committee Chairman, my husband is the Cubmaster. His Assistant Cubmaster has misconstrued information and made announcements without our consent. Our Leader's Meeting have gone from being meetings to becoming a loud, seemingly as times, free for alls. However, we do get things done BUT it makes the meetings tense. There was a time where we (CC and CM) were dealing with a family member's death and the Assistant Cubmaster stepped in and ran things for which we are unendlingly reminded. He also cannot take criticism well and finds ways to "prove" his point - not yelling but in a loud voice. During the last den meeting (our dens all meet on the same day/same place), the Assistant Cubmaster announced that we would be using "new" Pinewood Derby scoring system that had not yet been finalized. The Cubmaster nor any of the leaders approached him that night because we did not think it professional nor the proper place to do so. During subsequent Leader's Meeting, although none of the leaders really wanted to go with that system, I as CC said we would so that we would not appear to be "flying by the seat of our pants" (the Assistant Cubmaster's words). When we asked him why he made the announcement, he stuck to his guns stating that all the rules were finalized and it was a go, however, when all the leaders who were present were polled, none of them thought the rules were finalized. Yet he continued to say that they were..... All the above is echoed to varying degrees by the Den Leaders. Sorry for the long story. As CC, I feel that 1. I cannot "fire" him; 2. I need to institute meeting rules, a modified version of Robert's Rules of Order; 3. Speak with the Assistant Cubmaster and lay our cards out on the table and tell him he needs to tone himself down; 4. tell him no announcements may be made without the explicit consent of CC and/or CM. With these 'safety stops' in place I feel that he can be reigned in and continue to be a contributing member of the Pack. My husband, the CM, just wants his out of the Pack. All opinions and comments are greatly welcomed. Thank you

Thank you for all your continuing advice, and keep it coming. The thing that I do not understand is this is a Cub Pack. The CO has not supplied anything except for the number and two flags. Everything else that I as Cub Master have acquired has been purchased with pack funds that the boys have raised through fund raising. Or things that parents have donated. Any and all camping equipment that we have is mine personally so that is no problem. Our meeting place is not part of the CO and they did not set it up. I maybe blind to all this but what can they take if I was to take this road. The only thing that they do is sign the charter when it comes time to. I would like to think that I am well versed in scouting matters but this is new territory. The way things are sounding, is that I should just leave well enough alone. I just want what is best for the kids. When I went to Wood Badge and came back the pack exploded. I can only imagine what would happen if other leaders did the same thing. Maybe I am dreaming. When asked by the CO the Pack does do functions for them. We are active when they want us to do something. But other than that we do not even know that they exist. EKM

Let me clear a few things up that I should have stated earlier. The leaders that are in question are as follow 1) CC who is my wife and in this for the long haul as I am. 2) ACM his son is a Tiger and is going to be around for at least 4 more years 3) Webelos I leader who has committed to me that she is going to stay with the Pack for at least a few more years as Committee. And the leaders also offered to pay half of the training.

Hi Guys, This is really a Three-part question. I am having a problem with the C/O. In the past and up to the present my C/O has not been an active C/O. The straw that is breaking the camels back is the fact that I have asked for funds to pay for three leaders to attend Wood Badge. The C/O flat out said no based on the fact of commitment of my leaders. My Leaders commitment far exceeds any commitment that the C/O has shown in the past or present. The C/O does not have a presence at any Leader meetings, does not come to any pack nights and basically has no idea how the pack is run. They know nothing about my leadership. The Pack is running well therefore they are not getting any feedback of bad issues. The questions are 1) How active and committed should the C/O be in the Packs working 2) How does one go about looking for and changing your C/O 3) Am I wrong in asking for the C/O for funds to pay for Wood Badge. Lifer EKM

PackCC, All are good answers, I would first talk to the parents on the side who are leading the Tiger Den and explain to them that someone needs to take up the roll as the soon to be W/L and A/W/L you will most likely find two parents who will take over, they are doing it any way. You as the new CC have final say as to the money and also have all the right to know where the money stands at any point. You should have an account that needs to have a double signature on the checks. And you should always have 4 people on the signature card at the bank. The way I have it set up is (CM and ACM, Awards Committee Chair and Treasurer) all should be trust worthy people. Never have a single-family husband and wife solely in charge of the money it can get dicey. What you should do is like Beavah said bring the COR and your UC into the picture and ask for help that is what they are there for. If that does not work go to the DE. There is a chain of command that should be followed. All the rules and Regs are stamped out for you in the handbook dont try to invent the wheel when it has already been done. Help is only a phone call away. As far as letting this leader go I would step in and run the den with the other parents and explain to this leader that it is not working out and she needs to step down before you start to loose parents and kids. One of the jobs as a CC is to make sure that things are running smooth and if you need to you are to step in and run things till a leader is found. It sounds like there is trouble at the homestead with this family and it is being brought into the pack. Be more concerned with finding Den Leaders than with finding an ACM the Pack can run without one for a period of time. But if you dont have Den leaders it could drag you CM and the pack down. I am very up front and do not beat around the bush with anyone when it comes to the safety and the caring of all my kids in my Pack and thankfully so are all of my Leaders. If there is a problem in anyone of my dens or Pack it is brought out and dealt with ASAP. And if a leader needs to step down they are asked to directly and there is no beating around it. We are all dealing with children here and that needs to always be in our minds first and foremost. The one time that you hesitate could be the one time that you will regret for the rest of your life. I am sorry to put it that way but that is the plain truth of it. As I said I do not beat around the bush. Say what needs to be said and follow through with it, people will see that this is what Leaders do and you will be setting and example. You will be more respected for it in the long run. Lifer EKM

Welcome to the force Bugs, In my opinion leader/committee meetings are really one and the same. First let me state that I am the CM going on 5 years and my wife is the CC going on 3 years. This works out better than most would expect because the CM and the CC should work in concert with each other and have a good understanding of each other also. We do not have any children in the Pack. Our son is in BS. Our L/C meetings are some what structured; basically we start with the agenda for the next pack night. We run though the entire pack night. I tell everyone what I would like to be done from start to finish. At this point I open the P/N agenda up for discussion and it is tweaked out to the way we all see fit. Once that is done we move on to finances. The treasurer updates us as to the monies and we discuss fundraising. We are also at the same time talking about what the money is going to be spent on, any trips that have been planned or future fundraising. All dues and monies are handed out or in and all receipts are also handed in. Once this is completed the treasurer can leave is she would like. All this usually takes about an hour or so. We than have our old news and new news the old stuff is relatively short the new stuff takes a lot longer. This could include anything from someone not being able to make a meeting to an out of control child and anything in between. Sometimes a leader will want to run something by the rest of the leaders or myself, but this rarely happens. We also have coffee and cake put out at the beginning of the meeting for anyone who wants. At this time we all do something that is not usually done. We have our **** ing time meaning if someone has a problem with another leader or is not comfortable with something now is the time to air it out. This works great for us for a couple of reasons 1) we all have alpha personalities 2) we are all aggressive and passionate about the scouting program and 3) we all know that this is solely for the boys and nothing else. My wife and I have two rules that are always up held at our meetings 1) When you come to the meeting you leave your ego outside. 2) All arguments are settled and no one leaves the meeting mad at another person. If these rules are followed we never have any problems. I am not saying that this is the way things are to be run but they work for us. Enjoy your ride it will be a fulfilling one that you will not regret. I know that my wife and I have not. EKM

ScoutNut, You should know, just like everything else in life you just make it happen. I am lucky to have parents who are starting to see the bigger picture here. My leaders are very stead fast about the comittment to the Scouting program. Once the parents and the kids see the benifits of their hard work it makes things that much more simple. EKM