EJCrimmins

Our council does course specific CSP's. I believe that practice started in 2007 for us. The only thing I've found odd with it is that our courses are done in a cluster with other councils so if you go out of council for your course you really don't get to wear the CSP outside the course. I have uniforms with both an 2007 and 2010 course CSP's since I attended and staffed when the course was in my home council.

Tacos are easy and generally popular. Precook and season the meat then all you need to do is rewarm it. When we've done this in the past the pack provides the meat and shells (assortment of hard and soft) and then all the families brought a couple of favorite toppings to share.

FWIW, the things on lanterns are called mantles, not manifolds. Sorry for the hijack.

Not sure what council you are in in SE Michigan but Camp Frontier (Pioneer Scout Reservation - gets called Camp Pioneer a lot) run by Erie Shores Council is a great camp. There are quite a few troops from Greak Sauk Trail Council that go to summer camp there. I don't have first hand experience with the provisional camper program, my son was too busy this summer to use his free SPL provisional week, but here is what I know. Provisional campers are handled it two ways, they either can join a troop there for their week, you can either set this up yourself or the camp can sometimes help to make the match, or there is normally a provisional troop during week 6 of camp. Not sure if it will remain week 6 this year since they are adding a week 7. I believe the adult leadership for the provisional troop are volunteers but I could be completely wrong on that. The fee to the camper is the meal plan A (dining hall) fee regardless of what the troop they are staying with is doing, so if you go with a plan C (troop plans & purchases menu) then you do have an additional cost of eating with the troop. If staying with a plan A or plan B (camp menu/troop cooks) troop it would just be the fee. If you want him to focus on a T-2-1 type program this is Troop run with camp providing some supplies and supplemental programming. So if this is the focus you want you would have to go with a troop willing to have him work with their new Scouts on this. If you aren't concerned with this in particular and more looking at fun and merit badges, there is plenty to be had of both, there are a ton of non MB activities offered throughout the week, multiple outpost programs, and just about every merit badge is available. If you want more info their website is www.psrweb.org

Although its not really important to the original question here is the AF usage of Hand Salute and Two: Hand Salute is a command used only in training. It is a two count movement. At the command Hand Salute count one is raising the hand to a salute then the second count is to immediately return to attention. It is just used to practice saluting, I doubt you would really ever see it outside of BMT/ROTC/et al and even then Present arms and order arms would probably be more practical. Ready, TWO: again, used only in training. In practicing a multiple count movement, i.e. facing movement, the informational command of BY THE NUMBERS can be used prior to giving the command of Right, FACE for example. The trainee(s) then do count one of the command, there is time for immediate corrections. At the command Ready, TWO the trainee(s) do the second count of the movement. You continue to do movements in this fashion until the command WITHOUT THE NUMBERS (I think thats the right command, without checking) is given. So for the majority of folks in the Air Force they are not going to remember either of these commands after initial entry training. I still wonder if Hand Salute was an Army command at one time in history, not saying in place of present arms but in addition to with a different purpose. Only reason for this is since AF heritage starts with the Air Corps (the Army) they are more likely to have commands in common with the Army at one time in history than with the USMC or Navy. I understand it is not currently. Saying Two in a Scouting context is supported by the Ceremonies for Dens and Packs as well is in several ceremonies in the Troop Resource Guide. Whatever the origin it certainly seems to be correct, not that I'm saying its mandatory, but its not incorrect.

FWIW, Ready is never an appropriate preparatory command for the AF as far as I can think of sitting here. The Air Force has both the commands Hand Salute and Present Arms / Order Arms, they both serve a seperate purpose. Also since all AF drill started as Army drill I would bet it used to be an Army command. But that really isn't all that important to the discussion. If someone dug out a drill and ceremonies manual for the US Army from 100 years ago and compared it to today they would be different. What we know to be correct in todays military has little bearing of saying Two as the second count of a Hand Salute. I don't think it is an intentional distancing from the military to have removed Ready or even being lazy, more likely that was correct at one time for someone in some context and it stuck with the Scouts. How long have Scouts been saying two as opposed to how long they've worried about being PC? I'm sure the two timelines don't match up. All military knowledge aside, we say two to drop our salute because bringing our hand up at the command Hand Salute or more often Scout Salute was one. Edit: Oops, just thought of two occasions, although still not terriably important to the conversation. Ready is used when doing commands by the numbers (a command used in training,) and in Ready Front.(This message has been edited by ejcrimmins)

Yes its two, not to. No Hand Salute is not just a "jarhead" thing, it is a command in the Marines repertoire but also in the Air Forces although different in execution. Not sure about the Navy. It probably was an Army command at one time, D&C like other things changes over the years and it is no longer one of their commands. It really isn't any branches thing; it is a Boy Scout thing (tradition) that does originate with military drill and ceremonies. Also I will say that I know a whole lot of vets that did little to no D&C after basic, so all veterans are by no means experts on drill. I'd lump myself in with that group from my active duty experience and it wasn't for 20 plus years of learning and teaching drill w/ CAP cadets I would stay mum on the subject, I still by no means would say I'm any kind of expert. Two comes from the number of movements to execute the command hand salute, not the preparatory command, command of execution. Every movement has a number of steps to execute; in the case of saluting regardless of the command used to get there, there is one step up and one step down. The Army counts say each command (yes for them present arms/order arms) has one step. The Air Force Hand Salute command has two steps while present arms and order arms are single steps, but their two steps are different from the Scouts. Yes today Scouts while supporting the military separates itself from the military. That wasn't always the way, think about how we started. Scouting for Boys was just a rewrite of the book BP wrote for military scouts. In BSA's early days some uniforms were military surplus, we had drum and bugle corps, and you can find more than one picture of early Scouts that looks like a perfect military formation. So yes while 'Two' started with the military, regardless of branch, it is our own tradition now.

Our Council is part of a cluster that rotates hosting Wood Badge courses. There are four councils on a three year rotation. Two years there is one course, the third the northernmost and southernmost councils host a course. All of the courses have staffers and participants from the other councils so we share in both resources and knowledge. My council hosted a course this year so the next course hosted by the council will be in 2013.

Based on your description I couldn't call this anything but Den camping. If you have BALOO trained leaders they should know this is not allowed. Agree with the rule on den camping or not or the rationale behind the decision, it's just the rule that we can't do it. If the Bears would like to organize a campout and invite the Tigers, Wolves, and Webelos Scouts with the blessing of the unit committee that would be a Pack Campout and okay. I'm not talking about a one of those invitations that has a disclaimer of we're inviting you because we have to so we can get a clear tour permit but you really shouldn't come, I mean a sincere invitation with all the planning that goes along with it. I really think the fact that there is any question at all and at least a perceived need to justify it speaks volumes and answers the question for you.

As others have stated get him his AoL Award presented at the very next pack meeting. Both Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting use immediate recognition and advancement is an individual process not one you stay lock stepped in with your den. The idea that everyone must earn an award at the same time is a PC manifestation to not make anyone "feel bad." When Cub Scout dens were based on age and not school year boys would earn things every month based on how long they had been in the den, of course the boy that just became a Webelos Scout wouldn't be earning his badge but the boy that had been there for months had completed all he needed to earn rank, he didn't wait for the new guy. The shift to school years gives us packs that hold all awards to the Blue & Gold or graduation, packs that die out in summer, and boys that get their rank just for filling a seat for the year without completing requirements, none of these are good for the program IMO. I understand your concern that your son is the leader's son and some might view some favoritism even if there is none. I think many leaders face this with their kids. I did until I realized this one simple fact about being a leaders kid; the leader's kid attends EVERYTHING. They never get the chance to say I don't want to do that tonight, they not only attend every den and pack activity and many (if not all) district and council activities but often have to occupy themselves through leaders meetings, roundtables, and many other activities they normally wouldn't have done. Of course they finished first, it wasn't favoritism, just that they participated more and often had much more expected of them to begin with. Recognize his hard work, any other boy that attended EVERYTHING could have accomplished the same thing. As far as crossing over to another Troop, don't even think twice about it. Your son is a member of a pack, that in no way gives a certain Troop dibs on him. A boy should join the unit that will be the best fit for him, doing otherwise just limits what he may receive from Scouting. I know this is a touchy subject with some but the pack you join as a first grader should in no way predetermine the rest of your Scouting career. A boy could even join a troop and if he decides there is something he doesn't like about that troop there is nothing stopping him from pulling up stakes and seeking out another troop. Whether he crosses over now, next month or next spring is a discussion and decision for you and him in concert with the Scoutmaster, no one else needs have a say.

Its always great how much misinformation goes around about training. Currently there are three distinct outdoor training syllabuses for Cub Scouters or Boy Scouters from National, Im not clear on what exists for Venturing leaders currently. The three courses are Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO), Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OLSWL, although councils across the country use about a half dozen or more different acronyms all for the same course, OWLS, WOLF, etc), and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (IOLS, I've seen some councils that use different names for this as well or even take the syllabus and add significantly to it making the course almost as long as Wood Badge.) BALOO is required for Pack Camping. There are some councils that require it for Webelos Camping as well although this is not a national standard and doesn't make much sense in my opinion. As already stated if following the syllabus it is a combination of planning, policy and program. The only outdoor cooking is the foil packs. OLSWL isn't currently required for Webelos Den Camping but is encouraged, some councils may require it which would make a whole lot more sense than requiring BALOO. The only thing it is required for is to earn the Webelos Den Leader Award. There isn't a national provision to have IOLS be a substitute for this course, while it might be a local practice it also wouldn't be the first time that a DE was just wrong. In content it is however very similar to the IOLS course, there are differences, for example in woods tools a OLSWL covers pocketknife, camp saw, and earning the whittling chip. For IOLS it is expanded including axe use and the totin' chip replaces whittling chip. OLSWL also has a large Webelos program focus including the outdoor activity badges of Outdoorsman, Naturalist, and Forester. IOLS focuses on a leader (SM or ASM) being able to teach others how to do all the T-2-1 outdoor skills (or at least not make fools of themselves while they let their scouts teach their other scouts.) If a council is currently running OLSWL and IOLS concurrently, great, they are not being rebels, the current syllabuses are designed to run the course separate or together with separate breakout sessions based on which course you are taking. But you don't get credit for both courses just the one you completed. All that said, yes there are changes on the horizon. First, BALOO isn't going anywhere, at least not that has been announced. OLSWL and IOLS as they currently are will go away in their current form in favor of an single outdoor course covering Webelos Leaders, Boy Scout Leaders, and Venturing Advisors, not sure if it also includes Varsity since we don't have it locally I don't pay attention to it. This was supposed to happen sometime this year then National announced it wasn't happening until next year. Some training folks have mixed feelings on collapsing OLSWL and IOLS into each other but in the long run I like the idea, it seems so many places weren't offering OLSWL anyway, those that took it would then have to take another course that was about 75% the same in a year or two if they followed their scouts to a Troop as an ASM or SM. Volunteers time is valuable on so many levels, I believe folks should get as much training as they can but at the same time districts, councils, BSA ... shouldn't waste their time rehashing the same things over and over just to check a box and get another card.

We've always done our own roundup, Fall and Spring. The DE has attended some of the School nights but his part in them for the most part has been being introduced, he waves, thats about it then he takes the paperwork to council at the end, if hes not there we take it or drop it at his house. He's done a bit more in the boy talks hes attended but thats because he is very high energy and does a good job getting the boys excited but then he still doesn't come to all of those and only once, due to illness, has ever actually just done one for us. When I first started with Scouts I thought this was what all packs did, I was amazed when I went to another pack to help out the DE with a roundup and I did the packs roundup for them. No one knows your pack better then your leaders, you are the best ones to do your roundup in my opinion. First key to success if you are allowed to do them where you live is boy talks. Schedule with the school early to get into the schools you normally recruit from a few days before your school night signups. Don't just recruit from the first graders, speak to all that are eligible, 1st through 5th. Keep it short and sweet with the boys, they don't care about the details, just the fun stuff. And thats what gets them excited and gets them wanting to talk their parents into taking them somewhere in the evening. Make sure there is a flyer getting into the parents' hands at least several days before the signup, but don't make it a week ahead, you want them to have a bit of notice so it isn't tonight but don't want to give them time to forget, especially at the beginning of the year when they are being flooded with info. Will the school let you have announcements made the day of the signups? Will they let you put up posters? Can you put up yard signs around town? Make an announcement in the paper? The roundup night. We figure the boys are already excited or they wouldn't be there, this is your time to talk to the parents. While people are showing up, we have displays around the room, pinewood cars, raingutter boats, trophies, patches, slideshows from previous years events running, and a SIGN IN SHEET just in case we don't tear all the unit copies off the applications or they don't transfer well. Everyone gets a packet of papers when they come in, our packet includes a youth membership application, our pack annual calendar, a front and back sheet we prepared that includes the; aims of scouting, some specifics about our CO, where to get uniforms, our registration cost (we charge $20 no matter when you join to keep it simple, we will be adjusting this to 25 for the fee increase,) the contact info for the Cubmaster and a spot to write the Den leaders info we give them; the BSA sheet on Character Connections (this is what we consider our major selling point to the parents to get their commitment,) and the leader responsibilities sheet (lets them know who does what and sets expectations if they choose to volunteer.) Tiger parents also receive a sheet on Tigers explaining the expectations of parent participation in this program. We always have adult applications on hand. We have never driven anyone away with a few sheets of paper. After brief introductions we dismiss the boys and siblings to go have fun if they like, we run games, outdoors if possible with them while their parents do paperwork and ask questions. Our presentation is pretty brief to the parents, we focus on the benefits of the program and touch on parent responsibilities, the fact it is a family program not baby sitting, what they can expect from our program (we're very active) and open up to questions. We guide them through the paperwork, let them know their first den meeting (with in a week,) the contact info of their den leaders, talk to the Tiger parents if no Tiger leader has come forward from last Spring or existing families. Afterwards we get all contact info to the respective den leaders, they follow up with the new families sometime prior to the next den meeting to welcome them and field anymore questions. Certainly not saying this is the only way but it has worked well for us.

Sounds like he's doing the right thing. As long as his Scoutmaster signs a blue card and there is a registered merit badge counselor for him to work with he is good. There aren't any stated age restrictions on merit badges that I know of, I dont know even near the requirements for every badge so I may be missing something, but I know for sure Archery does not. That said a Scoutmaster may counsel a youth that it might be better to wait on a specific merit badge until he matures more, finishes a bunch or partials, tries something else, whatever reason he sees in the boy that might make him more successful, but that does not seem to be an issue here. Shooting sports does not need to be done in camp; that is a Cub Scout restriction. Yes he can use a compound bow, so can Cub Scouts. If he were shooting at a Scout camp he would not be able to take his own bow, he would have to use what they had, at least thats the case around here, not sure if that is national policy or not. What type of equipment he uses and how he completes the requirements is really between him and his counselor. He will need a buddy or be accompanied by someone to take the badge, for the protection of both the boy and the counselor. If for some reason there isn't a counselor local, maybe the troop/district/your son could talk one of the staff at the proshop and see if this is something they would be willing to register for. Folks with no other scouting connection are sometimes willing to register for merit badges if they are passionate about their job or hobby as it gives them a chance to share it with others. What you're likely running into is some local interpretations of rules. Some Boy Scout camps apply an age restriction to certain merit badges to give the scouts a better chance to be successful and to make the classes a bit smoother for the staff to handle. This is often the case with shooting sports but more so with rifle and shot gun. But this restriction applies to taking the badge at camp, not at all. In the end what your son needs to do is speak with his Scoutmaster, he/she is the one that keeps the list of counselors and signs the blue card for him to begin working on the badge.

Almost forgot our other standard breakfast: Mountain man breakfast - hash brown potatoes, eggs, and chopped up sausage all mixed up together. Cheese and onions if you like. Some of the boys prefer the ingredients separate. If you really want heart burn, add leftover chili from the night before.

For our pack campouts we only camp Saturday AM to Sunday AM so we are only dealing with three meals. There have at times been suggestions to drop Sunday Breakfast, but many of us really enjoy it so we continue. Our standard lunch is hot dogs and hamburgers w/ assorted chips, fruits & veggies. For dinners we've done several things: Spaghetti dinners - speghetti and sauce, garlic bread, salad. Pack has done all the shopping for this, it has either been prepped and then reheated prior to the campout or actually brought in shortly before the meal then kept warm. (We've been getting away from this over time as for a long time it was all that was done.) Tacos - Pack purchased required amount of ground beef (a lot) and spices and they were prepped prior to the campout by one person. Pack provided hard and soft shells and I believe a few bags of chips. Each family is asked to bring favorite toppings to share, you get quite a variety. This was a really fun and good meal. Chili - Each den is responsible for two batches of chili to share. Every family brings chili toppings to share. Pack provided salad. Great variety doing it this way. Have also done it with the pack providing a huge amount of chili, fed the masses but not as much fun. Assorted soups and stews - have done them with the pack, an individual, or a bit of everyone providing the ingredients. Does anyone remember the book Stone Soup? Our breakfasts are normally pancakes, sausage, and fruit. We had the boys make their own butter while pancakes were cooking before, have to do that again, its been a few years and its a fun and tasty learning experience. One campout a year (our district family campout)we do pudgie pies (pie irons) during our cracker barrel time.