eisely

It is true that many scouts achieve the rank of eagle and are never elected into OA. I would not venture a guess at a percentage. As one poster noted, some units do not bother to have elections for OA. This is unfortunate as it deprives youth of access to another level of activity in scouting, and the possibility of a genuine honor. Even where units have annual elections it is possible for a scout to become an eagle and never make it onto the ballot for OA if he does not meet the "nights camping" requirement.

I concur with those who object to the user name of the originator of this thread. They are much quicker that I was. I too agree with the sentiment expressed by the name, but this is not the place for that sort of thing. Please re-register with another more appropriate user name. I think you have much to offer the forum. Coming back to the subject at hand, the descriptions of tap out ceremonies provided by other posters are similar to the tap outs I experienced, as a tappee and overseer, as a scout. I think that a sharp blow to the chest is extremely inappropriate as the potential for real harm exists. What if the candidate is an adult or scout with a weaker heart? Anybody want to risk creating a situation where CPR becomes necessary? I think a ceremony where the names are read out is sufficient.

One of the reasons that OA, as a matter of national policy, no longer "taps out" is to reserve tapping for other occasions.

When I was a boy scout in Missouri we called it "tapping out" and it was done at summer camp. Our lodge ran ordeals at summer camp, and then later once a year in the fall after summer camp was over. In the two councils in which I have been a scouter in California as an adult, things are done differently. First of all, it is now a "calling out," not a "tapping out," for a variety of reasons. No physical contact between candidates and those doing the calling out is either permitted, expected, or necessary. Both lodges with which I have been affiliated as an adult do their calling out ceremonies at the chapter (district) level at camporees in the spring. The ordeal cycle begins in early summer preparing the camps for the season, and more than one opportunity for an ordeal is afforded to candidates. I think that this is the way most OA lodges operate today. Hazing is prohibited within scouting, and that also applies to OA. It is very easy for youth OA members to lapse into something that may be construed as hazing without proper adult supervision. In today's environment physical contact of any kind may be suspect, and thus is generally avoided.

Mike's suggestions are all very good. I am going to write them down myself. His initial response also reflects my reaction to your question. In my mind a "trail meal" is a meal eaten at mid day while on the trail. Breakfast and evening meals are meals taken in a camp site. What were you looking for?

I have not had to deal with this, although we did lose a dad in our troop a few years ago. That dad was a very active and fit man, and he died young. But I digress. You don't give any details. My approach to this situation would be tempered by considerations of the boy's family, and the extent of religious conviction exhibited by the boy and his family. If the boy was very active in the troop and the family desires it, some level of troop participation in the various rituals may be appropriate and appreciated by all, including the scout participants. In our case, we were not involved in the funeral mass, but the scouts were involved in the rosary earlier. Concerning dealing with your other scouts, there is no point in beating around the bush. You may wish to seek some outside professional assistance in this. If the boy was active and highly regarded in the troop, there will be more to deal with. You may wish to devote part of a meeting to discussion of the boy and his contributions. Good luck.

Having the facts right is critical in any disciplinary situation. One cannot rely on the tesitmony of other scouts, unless one is really comfortable in your understanding of their honesty and loyalties. If the behavior is observed first hand by you, as the adult leader, and does not involve your own kid, then you have to have the courage to act upon what you have observed.

I concur with Mike. Disdain and lack of mutual respect are not the scout way. The only occasion for a raised, but still respectful, voice is a situation of imminent danger where a scout is about to do something that may harm himself or others. This raises a different but related subject. How does one deal with a situation when the disdain comes from a senior boy whose parent is a prominent troop leader, and that parent is in denial about his son's conduct?

To add to Mike's list: 15. Completing and filing BSA tour permit application. 16. Obtaining permits, if required, from cognizant agencies where you will be going. 17. Identifying and obtaining permission of private land owners if you are going on private land. 18. Informing parents of medical permission requirements and making sure these are met on a timely basis. (I would advise getting annual Class III medical forms for everybody, including all adults, and then your are covered for everything.) 19. For backpacking, planning and conducting at least one training event carrying a load for those who have never backpacked before. 20. In order to do many of the things Mike mentioned you first need to get maps. Depending on where you are going, this can be easy or difficult, but you need maps to do the planning and then the execution. There is a lot of this that the boys can do. You may have to be with them when they make the phone calls, but it is a great way for these guys to start learning.

Rooster7 is probably right about the ability of a chartered organization to set membership limitations related to the faith of the sponsoring religious organization involved. Most LDS sponsored troops that I have seen provide all their own leadership and do not limit youth membership to members of their own faith. However, any non LDS youth who might join such a unit should expect heavy proselytizing. (Not that that would be wrong) Likewise units sponsored by orthodox synagogues are going to keep kosher on the trail and are more likely to plan their calendars around the complete jewish calendar. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. I have seen two troops affiliated in some way with Roman Catholic parishes whose scoutmasters were jewish men themselves affiliated with reform jewish temples. I think the amount of involvement in troop matters and activities by the sponsoring organzation, particularly a church of some kind, can be anticipated in the overall outlook of the particular organization or sect involved. If the sect has a lot of rules and actively proselytizes, then you will likely find few youth or adults members who are not already part of that faith. One of the major duties of the professional staff of the council is to establish and maintain relationships with chartered organizations that sponsor units. You would be well advised, Andrews, to identify the district executive responsible for the area where your troop will operate and put that executive in contact with your pastor. The DE is in the best position to explain to the pastor the expectations of BSA of the chartered organization and to answer any questions your pastor may have. Getting your DE involved early on is a good way to put yourself on the radar screen of the district staff structure and gain better access to the resources your new district can make available to you. You are not alone in your endeavors. Reach out early to your district staff and ask them for help. They love to receive phone calls from people like you.

You should not feel guilty about rationing your time. Rooster7's suggestions are sound. In any event, your personal schedule for making your move may not hold up and you need to retain some flexibility. Once you have moved and the troop is launched there will be time for some weekend outings during the summer to get things started. If it really is to be an inner city troop, any boys you may recruit should be started with simple outings to get them comfortable with the whole business before they are thrown into an ordinary summer camp. Many of these boys need to see the pure fun part first. Good luck.

Hey look at OGE! He too is posting twice now. How do you do that?

An interesting question. I too have seen a variety of specialized hats created by patrols, troops, and districts, so it would seem to be an acceptable practice. My initial response was based on the simple notion that the red beret is simply an outdated part of the uniform no longer officially considered to be part of the uniform. Over the years I have seen a variety of older uniform parts in use. BSA is generous in its policy in this regard, allowing older uniform parts to be worn until outgrown or worn out. Since hats are optional, red berets may still be acceptable. Never owned a red beret as a scout myself. That came in later. My opinion when the red beret was introduced was that BSA was trying to "modernize" its look a bit and make itself more marketable to urban youth. There were a lot of people touting berets as some kind of statement at that time, from the Black Panthers to the US Special Forces to Che Guevarra. If you own one, go ahead and wear it with pleasure and fond memories.

With difficulty.

It sounds like it has been a learning experience for everybody. As long as all the boys in the troop got the right message, it sounds like you are doing well.

Don't think so.

To both sctmom and EagleWB: Well said.

Hey Mike, I am going into new territory here, but I think the area on the shirt above the right pocket is reserved for jamboree patches. Concerning the merit badge sash, it is all a matter of taste. What is the point of these patches if one has no place to wear them? I would rather see them on a merit badge sash than plastered all over shirts inappropriately. When I was a scout at the national OA gathering at Lawrence Kansas so many years ago, I remember seeing one scouter who had so many patches he had them on his trouser legs!! He really looked ridiculous. I like the idea of using the empty space on a sash because it gratifies the natural desire to display a patch and does so in a less obnoxious way. At least everybody would be consistent.

I am "venturing" into an an area where I am less sure of myself. If the event in question is coed camping, then I think the rules for a coed event require coed leadership, with both adults over 21. As I understood the original question, 13EagleT430 was asking about two deep coed leadership for a non-camping event. I would assume that two deep leadership would still be required. If it is a non-camping event, logic would suggest that two adult leaders of the same gender may be OK. Hopefully there is somebody out there with real knowledge to share.

Not wishing to throw cold water on what could be a very good idea, but you really ought to check with your local council about this before you get too deeply involved. There are guidelines for fund raising, and I am not an expert on these guidelines. But scouting generally wants to avoid appearing to endorse specific commercial activities. Such a coupon book could be construed as out of bounds. Just a thought. Good luck.

Rooster7's posts almost always appear twice. It is a mystery to everybody, including Rooster7. Repetition of an idea is a valid rhetorical device. Concerning wearing temporary insignia on a merit badge sash, I believe this is addressed in the Insignia Guide to which I referred earlier.

To respond to the original question a bit more at length... As OGE pointed out there are many levels of policy within scouting, just as in any other large organization. It is perhaps useful to understand the legal structure of scouting. The national organization is a federally chartered non profit corporation, whose charter was granted directly by congress. This is itself unusual since there are very few federally chartered corporations. The national BSA corporation is a self governing body controlled by a self perpetuating board of directors, whose members are selected in accordance with the by laws of the corporation. This is not like a business corporation where the board of directors is elected by the shareholders. There are no shareholders of BSA. This board of directors is the group that sets national policy. One can communicate with them, and perhaps even show up at a meeting where the board may run an open forum, but ultimately the board decides. There is a similar structure at the council level. Councils are non profit corporations organized under the laws of the state in which they operate. Councils are also "chartered" by the national BSA corporation to operate a scouting program and call it part of BSA. The councils also have their self perpetuating boards of directors and they decide policy at the council level. Concerning the gay issue, some councils have publicly adopted policies somewhat at variance with the national policy, but apparently not far enough off the ranch to get the council into trouble with national. Influencing policy at the council level, as OGE said, would be done in much the same way. Hope that helps. By the way, I am one of those who strongly supports the BSA policy on homosexuals.

Apparently, as of Halloween 2001, the Helms amendment is still alive and well according to the article below. The amendment about the boy scouts has survived the House Senate conference. School prayer and access to schools for military recruiters have become larger more controversial issues. One suspects that the attacks on 9/11 have much to do with this change in attitude. ____________ Congress cuts deal on school prayer Wednesday, October 31, 2001 House and Senate negotiators trying to get a compromise education bill to President Bush this year approved a provision that would take federal funds from school districts that unlawfully restrict student prayer. If passed as part of the overall bill, it would mark the first time that Congress has tied federal funds to compliance with Education Department prayer guidelines. The House-Senate conference committee, which is reconciling differences between bills passed by the two chambers, also approved a measure requiring schools to give the same access to the Boy Scouts as to other groups, and another measure requiring that schools give military recruiters the same access as college and business recruiters. Lawmakers last month approved letting churches and other religious groups compete for federal after-school programs. On Tuesday, they approved an agreement allowing religious organizations to teach safety and drug-abuse prevention programs. Negotiators said they hoped to send the huge education bill to Bush by the end of the year - possibly by next month - before Congress begins its year-end break. "My sense is that we're going to be here until Thanksgiving," said Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., who chairs the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee. The First Amendment allows informal prayer by students "when not engaged in school activities or instruction." Students have the right to pray individually or in groups, read the Bible or other scriptures, say grace before meals or pray before tests. School districts can impose rules on the prayers, but can't prohibit, discourage or encourage them. According to the Education Department guidelines, students may also speak to others about religious topics and distribute religious literature, but schools may stop students who are using religion to harass others or who are compelling students to listen as a captive audience. Religious groups must be allowed the same access to schools as other groups. Public schools may not provide religious instruction, but may teach about religion, including the Bible or other scripture, the history of religion, comparative religion, the Bible as literature and the role of religion in the history of the United States, for example. Schools also may teach students about religious influences on art, music and literature, and they may teach about religious holidays, but may not observe them. On Monday, the Supreme Court turned away a challenge to Virginia's mandatory minute of silence in schools, meaning it remains in force for Virginia's 1 million public school students. The justices prohibited organized prayer during class hours in the 1960s, and classroom display of the Ten Commandments in 1980. In the past decade the court has banned clergy-led prayer at high school graduation ceremonies and student-led prayer at football games. Among the issues that remain in the bill are how much money schools will get from the federal government and how lawmakers will define "failing schools," which would be given more money in exchange for a promise of better student performance. The final bill still must be approved by both the House and Senate.

I like Rooster7's suggestion to use common sense. In my mind there are two separate hikes called for. That is the way we do them in our troop. There are many ambiguities in scouting rules and policies. Some of that is intentional. Some of it is not. Adding more written rules isn't always a good answer. In a previous thread on a different subject I advocated a written policy on a specific subject matter of unit management. But sometimes it seems that the more that is written, the more there is to argue about. Take the bible and the Internal Revenue Code as examples. Keep it simple.

As a general principle patches for special events or activities, including summer camp, are referred to as "temporary insignia" and there is only one place to wear them on a uniform shirt. That place is the right breast pocket and this is true for cub scouts, boy scouts, and (I believe) all others. For cub scouts the best bet, as suggested, is a patch vest. For boy scouts, the best place is the back side of the merit badge sash. Adults also use jackets to put these on. Strictly speaking, excess patches are not to be worn on the wool "shirt jac" that many of us own. Only one large patch, such as for OA, a jamboree, a fifty miler, or some such is to be worn in the back center of such an item. There is a published "insignia guide" that has all the rules. It should be available at your scout service center.