eisely

Suspending or kicking a boy out of scouting is a unit level decision. If real physical harm with permanent injuries or death had resulted, and the unit did nothing, I might expect the council to intervene. Under the facts you describe it would be an unusually pusillanimous council that would comply with the parents' demands regarding the two perpetrators. Concerning the boy's transfer to another unit, I would say nothing to any other scoutmaster unless asked. I would simply provide the family with the transfer form to which they are entitled and wish them well. Unfortunately for their son, if the parents follow through with their threats and demands, they will only make things worse for their own son, not better. I would proceed with the apology route, even if the parents are unwilling to acknowledge the apology. How do the parents of the two perpetrators feel about all this?

Oh yes. I like Mike's solution too.

Dealing with this depends partly on the circumstances. On backpacking and canoe treks everyone I have gone with is too tired to stay up late. This makes it easier to roust people in the morning. On a bona fide trek you cannot simply let people sleep in because that affects the entire group. In a car camping situation where a camp site may be occupied for more than one night, enforcing lights out and quiet becomes more important. The SPL should be able and willing to do this. I like the idea of not feeding late risers breakfast.

No single adult leader should have the authority to make major commitments of funds. This is one of the purposes of the unit committee. As is often suggested in these threads, adults leaders can benefit from training. In this case I don't know if training would have made any difference to your cub master. Like any other organization, a cub pack needs some semblance of a budget to avoid these kinds of situations. This budgeting cannot be done by one individual, but is a committee function. Having a separate treasurer with a bank account also enhances money management. Were thse funds simply being held as cash?

This piece below is excerpted from some recent remakrs by Chris Matthews, an absolutely delightful commentator. The guy talks a mile every ten seconds, but he is very good and honest, which is much more than one can say about most self important talking heads and national news anchors these days. Anyway, this is what he had to say. ______________________ "The class thing is wonderful because of Trump getting one more story about him in the tabs, the stories are about firemen and their families in The New York Times which didn't spend a lot of time focusing on firemen before." "They did their first fireman story in history on September 11. And it's about the people of New York and therefore the country. New York's part of the country again. It's not elite now. It's changed for a while. The people who are being celebrated today are people who give more than they get. And for so long, we celebrated people who got more than they gave." "And our value system was upside down. And the 80s, 90s were not good that way. We were fat and happy, but we were celebrating the wrong people and we weren't appreciating the good. A teacher who works and I think they say a Jewish woman who is sixty years old, has been teaching all her life and she raised her own kids in the public schools in New York. And got them through the same schools that are now Hispanic and Pakistani and South Asian, whatever. And she's still fighting her way to school literally every day." "That woman was ignored in New York. She's a chump. Why is she doing that? Why is she working for fifty-five a year? What's the matter with her? That value system is gone. Now, we remember the people who survived New York the eyes of the firemen coming up the stairs while they were going down. And so, the heroes are the givers not the takers. And that's a good value system." ______________ While I strongly appreciate Matthews' insights into the change in America, the question that nags me is why did it take 5,000 murders for us to see what really matters? Have a great thanksgiving with your loved ones wherever you may be, and remember in your prayers those who serve.

Momscouter, There isn't a troop in the world that can't use more parental support. You are not alone on that aspect of it. You do need to insist on more help and ask directly. Define specific tasks or responsibilities and ask people to do it.

bigbeard I agree with jmcquillan that you seem to be on the right track. Assuming that the apology along the lines suggested is achieved, I doubt that any more punishment such as loss of position would be warranted or effective. Such additional punishments could drive the two offenders out of scouting altogether. I am not sure that I would offer my own resignation in your shoes. Far worse things have happened with less drastic consequences. I am more concerned about the legal action the parents are contemplating. This would be an act of vengeance with no real purpose other than making the parents feel better about themselves. What are these parents really trying to achieve? There has got to be a lot of unhappiness in that household over the school situation, and this may be what the shrinks call "acting out". Is one of the parents stronger on this than the other? Is it possible to have a rational conversation with one of the parents? Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and these parents may now be convinced that the troop leadership is awful, but if they intend to leave their son in your troop, such legal action is hardly consistent with that intention. A good attorney would advise them to forget a lawsuit. Where is the harm that cannot be remedied with the apology?

Even where the adult leadership in a scout troop may desire to do so, it is often difficult to get the scouts to cooperate in a joint Scout/Webelos activity of any kind. The unfortunate fact is that many boys of scout age look down on Webelos to bolster their own lack of emotional development. I would suggest approaching some of the troops in your area, particularly those troops your boys are likely to join, to see what they might be willing to do. Council or district policy is more often just an attitude, subject of course to bonafide policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting. In your situation, if you have a troop that is interested in doing something with you, I doubt that anybody is going to stand in the way.

A yell doesn't have to be based on any noises the critter might make. What would a buffalo (not a predator species) say? "Help me! Help me! I'm being eaten alive." As for Nickel, OGE is showing his depth of experience. When was the last time the mint issued a buffalo nickel?

MomScouter, To the extent that you are able get an active outdoor program going with as much camping as possible. If your scoutmaster doesn't want to buy into this, or is not able to buy into it, don't let him become an obstacle. Your position as committee chair is potentially a powerful one. Hang onto it.

Sounds like a good idea to me. Notwithstanding the current disrepute of the Red Cross, you ought to talk to the Red Cross, and other concerned agencies to avoid working at cross purposes and make it a truly large affair.

Night time experiences are different and rewarding. My most striking memory is of Havasu Falls in Arizona under a full moon in 1992. Safety is also an issue. A lot depends on trail conditions and knowledge of the area. Proper footwear and the buddy system are even more important. Make sure you know where you are going and have a plan in case someone gets separated from the group.

As OGE and Shemgren point out there is nothing in national policy preventing youth leaders from signing off on rank advancement requirements. It is a matter of local unit policy. If your unit has no policy you should take it up with the scoutmaster and committee chair. Everyone involved, including scouts, youth leaders, parents, and adult leadership, needs to understand the policy, whatever it may be. Having youth leaders directly involved in the advancement program of the unit is something that should be encouraged.

Responding to Brad Andrews' post, it is indeed possible for all youth on a ballot to be elected. When an election is held (after all eligibles have been identified and a ballot has been prepared) the following procedure applies: A quorum of at least 50% of "active" youth members must be present. This permits units to avoid being held to a quorum requirement that might be based on registered members who may have moved away, graduated, dropped out, or even suspended or removed from membership. Youth are instructed that they may vote for all, some, or none of the names on the ballot. They are instructed that they may vote for themselves. Youth are instructed that they may abstain from voting altogether To be elected a youth must receive 50% of the ballots cast (rounded up in the case of an odd number of ballots cast). Abstentions are not counted as ballots cast. No arbitrary limit on the number of youth elected is preset. All of the youth on the ballot could be elected, and elected by less than 25% of the registered membership. For example a unit with 50 registered youth members may be deemed to have only 40 active. On the day of the election 22 youth show up, enough for a quorum. Of these 22, 5 are new scouts who abstain because they don't know any of the people on the ballot very well. Only 17 ballots are cast. Of these 17, a youth need obtain only 9 votes to be elected. If after one round of balloting no youth is elected, the youth are asked to think more deeply about this and vote again. If, on the second ballot, no youth is elected, the election is over.

ditto for OGE's post

You are correct in that OA considers anyone under 21 to be a youth. It does seem strange for a person 18 or over functioning as an ASM to be considered a youth for this purpose. I doubt that those under 18 in the unit would look at it that way. One still has to meet the nights camping requirement currently, that is, within the preceding 24 months. For example, if you are 19, nights camping when 16 clearly do not count.

There is another thread that touches on this issue. Look for "Elected Troop Officers Problem ..." with a most recent posting in October. Many units have problems defining and setting expectations for "show scout spirit" and "position of leadership." Unless your unit has done a good job of setting and consistently enforcing standards in the past, you may have to grit your teeth for this. Do scouts in your unit sit on boards of review for other scouts? If so, how does your unit manage this?

I am not aware of an OA forum run in this manner. Some lodges run "members only" forums, although I don't know how you would gain access without being affiliated with the specific lodge in question.

A number of interesting points have now come up. I want to respond to two of these points. The science supporting the view that homosexualtiy is biologically determined is very poor. I have been looking into this and the science is very poor indeed. Concerning women as scout leaders, I have encountered occasional negative comments from some men about this more often than I have encountered comments on the gay issue. This is an unfortunate set of attitudes. The need is too great to turn away interested and qualified women volunteers just because they may be women. There was a situation in Southern California about ten years ago involving a troop that had no male leaders whatsoever. It was a small troop in a small town and there were a lot of single moms involved in the unit trying to do something positive for their sons. This was before council run camps had adequate facilities for females and the local council used the lack of facilities as an excuse to prevent this unit from going to summer camp. The women had to sue to get their sons to camp. One suspects there was more behind the attitude of the council than just the facilities question. Fortunately this is no longer an issue most places. sctmom also makes a point similar to this. Many boys grow up without fathers around or other responsible male adult role models in their lives. I have found it extremely flattering in the past when a single mom commented to me that she was so glad to have scouting as an option for her son so that he had an oppportunity to be around positive male role models.

andrews' most recent post needs an amendment re OA eligibility for adults. For many years the rule was no more than one adult per year per unit. Recently the OA has loosened this somewhat for larger units. If a unit has 50 or more youth members, the unit may nominate two adults provided all the other requirements mentioned by andrews are met.

sctmom, Your post actually raises several issues. Webelos camping with specific scout units does occur. I have also seen Webelos groups show up at a scout camporee and go through the events, but not stay overnight. Some districts organize annual events similar to camporee just for Webelos where the Webelos camp and compete in age and skill appropriate events. The district I was in in Southern California ran a joint scout and Webelos camporee. There were separate competitive events, but a single set of flag ceremonies and a single campfire. There is no general prohibition of which I am aware that would prevent Webelos from doing anything alongside a scout unit. It appears to be a matter of local policy and program availability. Organizing and executing a camporee type event for Webelos is probably a matter of interested volunteer resources.

Yarrow raises an interesting point with regard to large units. It probably is more difficult for a boy to get elected in a larger unit because he is probably not as well known outside his own patrol. In response to OGE, the lodge in Mt. Diablo Silverado Council (Ut in Selica) runs five ordeals each year in support of five council run camping facilities. Some chapters have dance teams that perform on request at various events. The lodge also compiled on a CD a guide to places to go camping. An initial free distribution was made to all unit leaders in the council and it is also sold through the local council scout service center. The lodge also has other annual events.

Tachion, It is possible for an adult volunteer to be elected by a unit committee. It is a fairly involved process. It is also possible for adult volunteers at the district or council level to be nominated in a separate process. It happens with great regularity.

I was on staff for a multi district "Outdoor Leader Skills" (OLS) training event two weekends back. Having now seen the trainee responses for both that course, and the indoor leader position training segment, I would rate the outdoor training a huge success. This was my first time as a trainer for adults, and I found it very rewarding. Those who had been instructors in the past were more critical. Everybody involved, trainers and trainees alike, were disatisfied with the indoor segment taught earlier. We tried to stick to the OLS syllabus, but found the syllabus wanting in many ways. First of all, there is nowhere near enough time in one weekend to cover all the subject material. It was advertised as a course in "Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills" and that would be the best way to characterize it. In the staff discussion immediately afterward we were concerned about the amibiguity in the objectives of the course. Is it a course just to teach skills to adults, or is it a course in how to teach skills to scouts. We were most successful in those elements of the course where we could make it a hands on experience, from safe stove operation to orienteering. We found the new scout leaders to be most engaged as students when we could relate the specific skill to a teaching technique for training scouts. I would have to say this. I found it much better than "Scoutmaster Fundamentals" that I went through about ten years ago. Never made it to wood badge, so I can't comment on that.

Apparently there was a civilized discussion last week in Kansas City on this issue. I can understand the reluctance of the local council to participate, particularly if the forum seems stacked, but I wonder if the issue would not be better served by showing up. ______________ Forum addresses issue of Boy Scouts policy on gays By JAMES HART - The Kansas City Star Date: 11/08/01 22:40 For generations, the Boy Scouts of America has molded youngsters with its high ideals, its emphasis on honor and loyalty. But during a forum Thursday, several people said they believe barring gays from the group -- a practice enforced by the Scouts' national board and supported by a recent Supreme Court ruling -- betrays that ethic and promotes discrimination. About 30 persons attended the forum, held Thursday at the Central United Methodist Church, sponsored by Kansas City Harmony and the National Conference for Community and Justice. The local Boy Scouts council declined an invitation to the meeting. In a statement, the Heart of America Council said it is willing to discuss its policies with individuals, but the forum Thursday "is not conducive to a fair discussion of this topic." "While we do not expect everyone to agree with our leadership standards," the statement read, "we do expect others to respect them and to keep the politics of the day from interfering with the delivery of the Scouting program for youth in our communities." Many troops across the United States are sponsored by religious organizations, and Thursday night's panel included representatives from Catholic, Jewish and Protestant backgrounds. "We are people with open hearts, open minds and open doors to anyone," said Diane Nunnelee, pastor at Central United Methodist. "That includes homosexuals." The choices in the debate can be tough, she said. She supports the good things that Boy Scouts can do for young men, but she hates discrimination. Working from the inside, by starting a dialogue, might be the best way to cause change, she said. Kenneth S. Greene, a representative from the Catholic diocese of Kansas City and St. Joseph, said the church supports the right of private organizations to set standards for their membership, a right affirmed by the Supreme Court. The Catholic church believes homosexuals have the same human rights that anyone else does, Greene said. But the church also reserves the right to prevent homosexuals who have sex from serving in leadership roles. The audience brainstormed ways to get the national organization to change its policy. Some suggested pressuring donors to stop giving money to the group. Others thought diversity training might help Boy Scout leaders and staff members. But even if the national organization welcomed homosexuals, denominations that sponsor troops -- especially conservative ones -- might abandon Scouting, said Ed Henderson, a former scoutmaster. "It would kill the Boy Scouts of America as we know it," Henderson said. He suggested letting local troops decide whether homosexuals could be members and serve as leaders.