eisely

Here we go again....

There is no good answer for this sort of thing. You did what you could. You will have to accept that. Life is full of disappointments. It is too bad that scouting had to deliver a disappointment like this to your son. He should rest easy that he did the right thing. He did save a little girl's life. Somehow I think that the failure of the girl's parents to follow through on this will matter a great deal less on your son's final scoreboard than the action itself. Maybe that thought helps.

It is naive to think that numbers don't matter. For those of us operating at the unit level, it may seem sinister, but I like the idea of DEs out there promoting the program and being measured to at least some degree on their success. It is a sad comment, however, when any organization, be it a business, a scout council, a church, a school, or whatever, becomes totally numbers driven. Non profit organizations are more susceptible to this than ordinary businesses, IMHO. There was big scandal in the late 60s or early 70s in scouting in the Chicago area when people were falsifying numbers and pumping them up just to meet quotas. Sounds kinda like Enron, only we expect more of scouting.

Try this www.pages.towson/edu/romans/philmont/philmont_fire

It was bound to happen after a prolonged drought. There is a serious fire burning in Northern Philmont as I write this post. Philmont has issued a release saying that it plans to accomodate everybody this summer, but that some itineraries will be changed. If your itinerary included territory North of Route 64 you will be affected. A nice person has created a web site to track this situation. Go to www.towson.edu/romans/philmont/philmont_fire Hope that works. Pray for rain (without lightning). Happy trails anyway.

One thing that parents can be encouraged to do is to write their son a letter before the boy goes to camp. That way he gets a letter early in the session.

Salra, Where do you live? You are not far from me. Send me a private message.

This is a tough one. My inclination would be to call the parents and not the police. If the action is likely to result in further harm of a serious nature, I might call the police. For example, a scuffle does not deserve a call to the police. If some boy loses it and grabs something to use as a weapon, such as a pocket knife, and actually connects with the knife, this has moved beyond a scuffle.

Don't give up on scouting - give up on that troop. Most of the people in scouting, adult and youth, do a better job of living up to the ideals of scouting than these folks.

I like it. Sounds like fun. I trust that no actual snipes were hurt by this exercise. We wouldn't want PETA coming down on us again.

It is my understanding that it is national OA policy that the ordeal must be done "within council." That is, the lodge responsible for the election must provide the ordeal and one cannot do one's ordeal in a summer camp or other event outside of one's own council. I have seen this done and it creates no end of problems. Your lodge advisor may be willing to go along with the idea of doing the ordeal at a different council's camp, but he (she) is not required to bless the arrangement. You should call the lodge advisor immediately. There is no harm in trying, but the answer will probably be that the boys must do their ordeals "in council."

I don't think everybody is as far apart as it may seem. Everybody agrees that maintaining discipline about such things as knives, fires, safety afloat, etc. is a use of the word discipline that is separate from the idea of punishment. In my mind, separating boys for whatever reason and calling timeout is not punishment. Depriving a scout of scout privileges could be construed as a form of punishment but seems to me to be wholly consistent with G2SS. In other threads the issue of suspending a boy from scouting or revoking membership altogether was discussed. Losing membership permanently could be a form of punishment and this is an action that should not be within the sole authority of any adult. None of these actions legitimizes corporal punishment, verbal abuse, putting a kid on bread and water or anything that might be considered true punishment. I don't think that a scoutmaster has to consult with parents before confiscating a knife or exiling a scout to his tent for period of time.

I read an article in Canoe & Kayak magazine that made a point that eluded me earlier. This has to do with fish hooks and lures. If you are going in an area where there is a lot of fishing, you need to be wary of abandoned hooks as a special hazard. This applies to swimming and canoe handling. It is also an argument for ensuring that people have appropriate footwear. In this regard it should be noted that footwear manufacturers now produce specialized footwear for kayaking and canoeing. These are actual shoes that can be taken into the water that drain quickly They are expensive and probably would not be a good buy for youth with rapidly growing feet. Bon Voyage

It seems to me that the word discipline needs to be explored here. If discipline refers narrowly to punishments, then that is the proper purview of the adult leadership, although I can see that youth leadership involvement is appropriate. If discipline refers more broadly to such things as maintaining order and monitoring behavior then clearly there is much for youth leadership to do. For example, I would encourage the youth leadership to intervene in rough housing that may result in injury or is inappropriate for the circumstances. That is more like "maintaining discipline" and has nothing to do with punishments.

A very good point from Its Trail Day. There ought to be a merit badge for collecting oral history. Everybody has a story to tell and younger and future generations can benefit greatly from having that kind of record. Although emails are routinely deleted, correspondence through email has revived letter writing generally.

With some reluctance I have to come down on the side of treating singing to get one's possessions back as a mild form of hazing and probably best done away with. In another thread on a similar vein I raised the questions, as has Rooster7, as to whether or not skits cross a line. Many campfire skits derive their humor at the expense of someone. Should we abolish these skits as well? The one way that I counsel my sons, who seem to greatly enjoy verbally jabbing at one another, is that if it is not funny to the recipient of the jab, then it is not funny at all and should not be done. Everybody has to enjoy the joke for it to be acceptable. In the question of the singing to get things returned, we can't get totally into the mind of every boy and, in this uncertainty, should avoid such humor altogether.

I too am concerned about what is taught and how it is taught. History is terribly important and so is critical thinking. What concerns me is the ideological lens that is being used these days to view the history of our country. History, like many subjects in high school and college, is taught in many schools to make people feel good without real thought. One could argue that the same was true about more traditional approaches to teaching history, but today's approach excludes a lot of relevant information, and downgrades the historical achievements of American society to emphasize the negative achievements. For example, while it is true that many of the founding fathers were slave owners, and slavery was protected in the original constitution, slavery was finally abolished as a result of a long and bloody conflict. Contemporary teaching seems to promote the idea of victimhood without showing what has been accomplished. The ideas and information contained in a body of historical information or belief begins with a common understanding of what happened and then moves to an understanding of how and why things happened. Everybody has an ideological viewpoint in interpreting history, but a fair and honest teacher will acknowledge that. To anyone who doubts the importance of a common historical understanding I commend a book I recently read entitled "Lenin's Tomb: The Last Days of the Soviet Empire" by David Remnick. Remnick is a journalist by trade, but an unusually capable and insightful journalist. He spent several years in the Moscow bureau of the Washington Post during the Gorbachev years through the revolution of August 1991. It is interesting that some of the most controversial dissidents from the communist line during that period emphasized developing factual historical knowledge of how the communist party came to power and maintained itself in power. It is clear from Remnik's book that much of Soviet society was, and probably still is, in a state of collective denial about the evils done by Stalin in particular. It was only when Gorbachev cracked open the archives just a bit that the truth started coming out, with the consequences we see today. Read on and keep an open mind.

Based on my experience in 1995, I would make the following observations. 1. Although it rains daily somewhere, if not everywhere, in the reservation, these rains are usually showers, not soaking rains. While rain gear is essential, everybody that I have ever talked to who took a rain suit found it not to be worthwhile. 2. In some areas there are more trails on the ground than appear on the map. It is easy to take a wrong turn. Check your map at every junction. While compasses are useful and necessary for orienting the map, the most useful navigation instrument we had was an altimeter in one of the other adult's watch. If you know what trail you are on and know the elevation, it is pretty easy to pick out your location, even in heavily forested areas where you can't see landmarks. 3. Avoid accepting breakfast packs that require a lot of preparation and cleanup, e.g. pancakes. You might want these for a layover, but you need to plan to hit the trail early each day. Avoiding a lengthy breakfast cleanup helps. This way you hike during the cooler part of the day and ensure hitting your destination in time to participate in the activities that await you. 4. Don't take along a lot of extra clothing. You will need pack capacity for food. 5. Keep up the physical training until departure. Advise your boys to avoid activities that may result in an injury. My son was scrubbed last June because he had an emergency appendectomy, so things do happen to keep people from going. Some such things the boys can control, and some, such as appendicitis, they can't. Happy Trails to you!

Bob White is correct about the current LNT teaching. According to some of the LNT literature I looked at, it is now believed that human waste decays faster closer to the surface of the earth than buried deeper. The idea of a cat hole is that everybody digs their own when needed, rather than create a single latrine. There may still be circumstances where a common latrine may still be a more practical solution. In canyon country you may not have space for everybody to do their own thing.

Way to go. First aid is probably one of the most boring subjects we teach in scouting, because we so rarely have to use the skills. Good for your son.

The information that I am looking at in the 2002 Itinerary Guide does not specify a minimum height. The narrative does say, "Every Philmont trek involves hiking with a 35-50 lb backpack between 6,500 and 12,500 feet elevations. Philmont recommends that participants carry a pack weighing no more than 25%-30% of their body weight." As I noted above, this does not provide much carrying capacity for anyone under 120 lbs. The adult leader who led our council contingent two years ago led a coed crew. One of the girls weighed only 90 lbs. She was not able to carry much more than her own personal gear. While that group cheerfully shouldered the extra burden for this one person, if you have four out of a crew of twelve this small, you have a problem.

The reality is that in most units calendar planning is more of an adult exercise than it ought to be. In our troop we are trying to directly involve the boys more. The point about adults having to juggle calendars is well taken. The calendar is also governed by other calendars such as school, religious holidays, and other observances. Also the seasonality of different types of activities has an obvious impact. Often the boys don't think about these things too well and need guidance. The boys also simply don't have as much direct experience of different types of activities and locations to provide a lot of creative input. The approach to make suggestions and provide options works well.

SouthPoleScout makes a valid point about rescue equipment. Hmmm...is this grounds for litigation under the Americans with Disabilities Act? Concerning the 60 pound eleven year old, there is a "recommended range" although the shortest height in Philmont's scale is 5'0". The issue for small and skinny people on a Philmont crew is their ability to carry their share of crew gear and food given the maximum limitation for them on backpack weight.

MomScouter, A person 6' tall is allowed to weigh no more than 239 lbs according the Philmont 2002 Itinerary Guide. Assuming your son is still growing, a person 6'7" tall or taller is allowed 295 lbs. At 6'5" the allowance is 274 lbs. This could be a problem for your son. Everybody understands what Philmont is trying to do with these restrictions, but I would think that a very athletic teenager would be cut a little more slack. If and when that day arrives, you need to contact Philmont directly. I think the main concern is to keep people who are obviously not fit and might be at risk off the trail. I have lost 20lbs since the first of the year to qualify for my trek this summer.

I agree with everyone else who says you should stay on until your planned departure in October. You did the smart thing in canceling the trip, but a less smart thing in letting the CC over ride you. This troop committee, yourself, and other involved adults need to have a serious conversation about the authority of the scoutmaster in such matters. Mike Long's suggestion to have the PLC discuss it is very sound. Much is learned by all in such discussions. Other adults should not be part of that discussion. It is always a disappointment to cancel a trip, but safety is the paramount consideration. A troop I was with in Southern California several years ago planned a weekend of backpacking in what is now Joshua Tree National Park. They drove almost four hours to get there Friday evening, got up on Saturday morning, looked at the sky, consulted with the ranger about the local forecast and returned home that morning. That weekend the area was hit with an unseasonal early major storm. Other non scout hikers had to be rescued. Right call, but a disappointment nevertheless. My name will never appear on a tour permit where I do not have the clear authority to make such decisions.