eisely

You should ask the dad if he has any specific information that would disqualify the CC as a registered scouter. It doesn't sound as if this dad is willing to listen, but you have to try to point out that the boy's interest should come first regardless of the dad's feelings. The dad must see some value in scouting, otherwise they would not have affiliated with the troop. Try to emphasize that scouting is for boys, not adults. We are there to serve and teach, regardless of any personal grudges or feelings. Divorced couples have to deal with these kinds of things all the time. The dad needs to get over it. By the way, where is the mom in all this? You mentioned a divorce. Who is the custodial parent?

I certainly agree that the punishment described for the prank calls is too excessive. Aside from the question of compliance with BSA regulations on rank and merit badges, what is the point of such severe punishment? A five hundred word essay is a lot, and probably proportional to offense, as described in the post. Have these kids been turned off on scouting? Are they still part of the troop? I wonder.

Rooster, As I think is clear from my previous posts in this thread, I disagree with the judge. What I find more annoying is the willingness of federal judges to act as unelected mandarins and legislate from the bench. The federal judiciary is the single most important protector of our freedoms from our own government. It deserves respect. Silly rulings like this on a relatively trivial issue erode that respect. The judge should have left well enough alone. I have some time and am on something of a roll here, so bear with me... This war on terror is a legitimate and fundamental governmental function and responsibility. It is necessary. However, sticky issues have already arisen and the judiciary must be careful in dealing with these issues as they come up. I have no sympathy for the likes of John Walker Lindh (and in this case, his grandstanding lawyers), but there are some legitimate constitutional issues surrounding the nature of his interrogation while under military control and how that evidence is to be used. What about the guy (I forget the name - senior moment) being held in South Carolina? He too is a US citizen, and I don't understand the legality of his being held without being charged. I happen to agree that the people held in Guantanamo are being properly held, but what will we eventually do with them? I saw a piece in the paper this morning that a different federal judge in San Diego has ruled that the federal law enabling the executive branch to classify organizations as terrorist organizations can be challenged in federal court. If I understand this correctly, this means that Al Queda can sue in federal court to avoid treatment as a terrorist organization. If this law is not upheld, important tools in the war on terror will be lost. Do we want this to happen? These are the kinds of issues the judiciary needs to be thinking about. Have a happy and safe July 4. Remember why we observe this date. Freedom is not free.

I agree with FScouter. People have gone off the deep end on this thing. The phrase "under god" is not equivalent to the establishment of religion, regardless of what some may think. Removing the phrase is not the end of the world and will not cause god to turn against the USA. I am old enough to remember learning the pledge without the two words. I remember the change being introduced about the time that I was in seventh grade. It was no big deal then and it is not a big deal now.

The best way boys learn is by making these kinds of relatively harmless errors. I agree strongly with the other responders who believe that stronger adult intervention would be a mistake. Having said that, the problem appears to be getting chores done promptly in general. There are times when adult intervention during a serious expedition may be necessary if a particular boy or boys are unduly holding up the process. Excessive delay can create additional risks. But the best way to get these guys to get themselves organized is to let them make mistakes where the cost may be lost time for more fun type activities. Sometimes the best speed is boy speed, not adult speed.

All the responses are correct. You may also wish to discuss this with your District Advancement Chair or Council Advancement Chair.

This debate is about a relatively inconsequential phrase. I don't consider pledging allegiance to a flag akin to pledging allegiance to a king, and I take some offense at that idea. Historically, battle flags served a practical purpose in helping soldiers, and sailors at sea, identify friend from foe. You will recall that the colonists used many different flags before adopting the Betsy Ross flag. I also would point out that soldiers in the civil war took their flags, on both sides, very seriously. To be the color sergeant was a post of great honor and great danger. The flag went with the regimental commander and let both friend and foe know where the commander was located. Needless to say, flags, and the groups around them, were prominent targets. Think of the marines on Mt. Suribachi. A larger flag was needed so the ships would not fire on the mount. Only a few of the men who raised that flag survived the battle. Even in Viet Nam American soldiers often carried small flags into battle, although the practical purpose of a battle flag had lapsed. Men died for these pieces of cloth. All we ask school children to do today is honor a symbol of our country. What is wrong with that?

Mr. Newdow reminds me of the "picky eater" that Little Dove wrote about in another thread.

I never had a den chief to assist me when I was a Webelos den leader, but I did serve as a den chief as a scout. It was a great experience. It is also a good oppportunity for a boy who may be motivated towards teaching to find out if he likes working with younger kids. Not only will your son provide a valuable service, but he will learn and grow too. He should go for it.

Little Dove, In following this thread, I don't recall any mention of the boy's father. Is there a father around, and if so, where is he in all this?

Well said Mike. Isn't it interesting how many of the problems aired in this forum are parental, not youth, problems? It seems to me that over half of the problems people bring up either originate with parents or are exacerbated by parents.

Wow. I think I've seen a stronger consensus on this topic than any single thing that has been discussed on this forum.

The troll is back. Take a good look at the coins in your pocket, or purse as the case may be. Ever notice the "in god we trust" stamped into the metal? I found it on the penney, nickel, and dime. Scandalous.

The problem is less with the food than with a boy who wants the attention and a mom is looking for an excuse to give the attention. I too was a picky eater, and it was going to scout camp that changed that for me. I ate what was served or went hungry. My mom would never have catered to me the way this mom does, thank god. It seems to me that no committee action is required. Either a direct conversation with the mom, or the exercise of having her flll complex orders for everybody should be sufficient. She needs to recognize the damage she is doing to her own son.

This ruling is so risible that I predict the full 9th Circuit Court will reverse. If the judiciary of this country feels that it does not get the respect it deserves, or worries about being "politicized," it need look no further than this silly ruling to understand why the judiciary suffers in the public eye. At moments like these I look for a secret phrase in the preamble to the consitution regarding the purpose of the federal government. I think the founders meant to say, "...form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare (and provide entertainment) do ordain and establish etc etc..."

I was fortunate enough to come home in the same condition in which I departed, and with nothing more than the standard campaign medals. In times of war everybody takes risks, but one needs to know that the risks serve a real purpose. Our political and military leadership in the 60s did not themselves believe in what they asked us to do, hence the bitterness and drug problems in the military of the 70s. It is interesting to reflect on the difference between North Viet Nam and Iraq as military foes. Iraq had far more military potential in the Gulf War than did the North Viet Namese. The difference in their performance was, in my mind, the difference in the attitudes of their soldiers. The North Viet Namese soldiers always knew why they were fighting. The Iraqi soldiers were never convinced by their leaders that the sacrifices they were asked to make mattered.

Glad something is going right in the fire fighting arena.

I recently had cause to reflect on this issue when I taught the ax use portion of the new Outdoor Leaders Skills class. When I was a scout, we used a hatchet, also referred to as a hand axe, all the time. We also occasionally used a regular axe. Times have changed. There is little use for these tools anymore. I told my class that, in fourteen years as an adult leader, I have used a hatchet only once on an outing. That was on a canoe expedition where we had the opportunity to build a campfire and needed to make some larger dead wood into smaller dead wood. I also told my class that the safest thing to do with an axe is leave it at home. The only time our scouts now use any kind of axe is to make kindling for the fire building competition at camporee. We should still teach scouts how to use these tools. In my mind, axe safety is right there with firearm safety. Some scouts may never shoot a gun other than at a rifle range at scout camp, but they learn to respect firearms and how to use them safely.

Clinton did indeed give a whole new meaning to the idea of multi tasking.

I still occasionally encounter hostility to women in scouting. Some people just don't get it.

Did you check the regional office?

I think you are right. My impression is that most commissioner staffs are spread much more thinly than the target ratio. One result is that districts will take almost anybody on as a commissioner. There have been some commissioners that I have seen who, although good hearted and well intended, probably did more harm than good by creating the impression that a need was being filled.

Aside from the specifics that triggered this thread, this is a subject that deserves more information. I confess to ignorance about the specific responsibilities of the COR versus the committee. It also seems to me that a council could act upon its own authority to remove an adult member. I don't know this for a fact, but given the legal relationships between councils and COs, I can't see that a council in its charter to a CO would cede all such authority. Does this make sense?

I was hoping that Mike, or someone else more technologically proficient than I, would come up with the right link. The link cited by Mike is the correct one. According to the news at this hour on June 10, some suburbs of Denver are being evacuated because of an approaching fire. I guess things are pretty bad in that part of the country. Everybody going to Philmont this summer had best pay attention to what is going on, and discuss with your crew what to do in case of a fire in the back country.

As has been noted, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the CC going on outings, or supporting troop activities in other ways. I know of no prohibition against a CC being a merit badge counselor for example. As has also been noted, there is probably some benefit for the CC to have some direct contact with the scouts. I guess that I have been fortunate to be affiliated with units that generally had adequate adult volunteer support. One always hopes for, and tries to encourage, more. The kind of appeal to a congregation that scoutmaster424 describes is unlikely to work however. The kind of approach described by Bob White in other threads of a more personalized one on one approach will yield better results. It may seem to be more time consuming, but it isn't really, when measured against the results obtained.