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Excellent list. My wife had never gone camping until we went to a car camping event with our troop in Southern California several years ago. She really enjoyed herself. We even did a little backpacking earlier this spring. All the points in your list encompass things I have done to make her time outdoors more enjoyable. One might also add that the men really need to be sincere in welcoming female participation.

Female scouters also take woodbadge training, although I personally don't think of them as chicks. What would be wrong with unattached male and female scouters who share a set of values and an interest, meeting at Woodbadge, or any other scout activity for that matter? Who cares?

One further point about going "by the book" I have a great deal of respect for the BSA way of doing things. These programs, policies, etc. were not arrived at accidentally and are based on decades of experience. In life generally one always encounters expressions such as, "we've always done it that way..." While this by itself does not justify automatically doing it the way it was always done, the historic way of doing things usually has good reasons behind it. Old ways should be both respected and challenged. That way we learn from the past and validate the appropriateness of old solutions to what seem to be new problems, or change those solutions if warranted. The fact that Bob is a true believer in the BSA way of doing things should not put us off, but should put us on our toes to listen and reflect on what he has to say.

A good and scout-like thought.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Bob comes across as a "by the book" kind of guy, including Bob himself. He also comes across as something of a "know it all" as well. I think the combination of characteristics offends some people. He has offended me on at least one occasion, but that does not excuse the abuse that some people dish out on this forum. In fact Bob knows a great deal, and this too might offend some people. Nevertheless the reason people solicit Bob's opinion or advice is that his opinion is always well formed, and you can count on his knowing what BSA official sources have to say. This is very valuable. Too bad some people resent it. Keep up the input Bob. I always find it interesting and informative, even if I don't always agree with your slant on things.

You may want to contact the manufacturer. These tents are presumably beyond any warranty period. If they are getting used that often, it may be that they are worn out.

There are also appeal procedures in the advancement rules. If the boy now has the merit badges I think the council would be on thin ice to refuse the eagle.

How old are these tents? What type are they? What is the material of which they are made? Were they properly pitched>

OGE, I don't care what the motivation was for the DE's taking woodbadge. They deserve credit for being there. Good for you and your friends.

Maybe it just seemed like 30 miles.

Does anybody know if the Lincoln Trail is part of the Scout's designated "historic trails" today. Some council in Central Illinois sponsored this years ago. By hiking from New Salem Illinois to Springfield Illinois (about 30 miles) in one day a scout could earn a special award. My explorer post did this back in the mid fifties in July. Not quite the Bataan death march, but close. The idea was to retrace a route that Abraham Lincoln reputedly walked many times.

Let's lighten up here. I thought that Bob's last post was pretty clever. Frankly I didn't think he had it in him, I've gotten so use to his strongly stated opinions. There is a side to Bob we did not appreciate before.

sctmom, I have to agree with you that the problem is more likely with an overprotective attitude generally than with an attitude towards female scouters. This kind of behavior is something that I personally have never encountered. I would suggest a private conversation with the SM along the lines of "How will they learn if we do everything for them?"

Bob, You have a point about the responsibilities of volunteers towards the paid execs, but maybe there is more that the execs can do to alleviate this problem. I don't know what that may be, but it is not just a problem with volunteer attitudes. These attitudes had to come from some place.

I have to agree wih OGE that the perception by volunteers of the paid executives is luke warm at best. Fair or not, accurate or not, that is the perception. What can and should the paid execs do to change this situation?

Good luck to you and your family in your new troop. Make sure your son is re-invigorated to finish his eagle. You showed yourself to be the larger man.

As far as I am concerned women are both welcome and needed, particularly when the men are not holding up their end of the stick. I do think that many, if not most, women are put off by subtle signals that the men often don't realize they are sending. And of course there are often very unsubtle signals. Personally I try to treat the interested women volunteers no differently than I treat males. This is the only way to go. One does not want to come across as patronizing either.

Useful information

All the roundtables that I have participated in had a brief joint session dealing only with those things common to both cub and scout programs. These were very short and valuable, but the main emphasis is properly on the different programs in their own breakouts.

Congratulations on a weekend well planned and executed.

I can only say that the same mess kits, without the plastic cup, were in the catalogue when I was a scout in the early fifties. I had one and used it a lot. They were the only thing widely available at that time other than army mess kits. Today I advise against spending money for one.

Joining the consensus, this requirement cannot and should not be waived. Private lessons might be an answer to whatever the issues might be. This boy will gain more by passing the requirement than by sliding by. To say nothing of learning an important survival skill.

Here in California it's "Nick a tree -- go to jail."

I think your're getting close to the w word there.

I agree that we should continue to teach these skills, however such tools are probably best left behind on most outings in most areas. Perhaps Paul and his folks do have more opportunities and needs for these tools, but in California taking such tools would be carrying dead weight. Ironically, in our conservation work at Philmont, we were clearing some excess small trees. They gave us saws to work with.