eisely

Our troop does not own tents, and it is unlikely we would ever own any. Not because we are impoverished, but because of lack of storage. My biggest problem with boys bringing their own tents is the uncertainty about the quality and condition of the equipment. Also, many families own larger family size tents that the boys want to use. The objective should be to get them into two man tents as quickly as possible. In this regard, troop ownership is probably a good idea if the troop can afford it and has a place to keep them.

Those who have been closely following the election results last week will be aware that Louisiana election law requires a runoff if no candidate gets 50% of the vote. The Republicans may yet pick up another Senate seat. Remember Jesse Helms and his amendment to the education bill regarding access to public facilities? It turns out that Senator Landrieu's votes on this may hurt her. Landrieu's opposition to the Boy Scouts may come back to haunt her. November 11, 2002: Sen. Mary Landrieu (D.-La.), forced by her poor November 5 showing into a December 7 runoff election, must now convince the people of Louisiana to send to Washington two senators who are members of the Senate minority (the state's other senator is Democrat John Breaux) rather than a member of the Bush team, state Elections Commissioner Suzanne Haik Terrell (R.). President Bush is wildly popular in the state, which he won by eight points (135,000 votes) in 2000. Landrieu is also facing a rebellion by Black political leaders in the state, who are refusing to actively support her campaign. Moreover, Landrieu is out of touch with her state on some key social issues. While she has been willing to vote against partial-birth abortion and to co-sponsor legislation against human cloning, she also voted against the Boy Scouts twice in June 2001--an issue Senator-elect Saxby Chambliss (R.-Ga.) used in his successful long-shot bid to knock off Sen. Max Cleland (D.-Ga.). Georgia Republican Chairman Ralph Reed--who engineered the Peach State upset--discussed the issue. The first vote was on an amendment proposed by Sen. Jesse Helms (R.-N.C) to cut off federal funds to schools that discriminate against the Boy Scouts because of their policy of not allowing homosexual scoutmasters. Landrieu, who did not comment in the debate, voted "no." The second vote was on an amendment by Sen. Barbara Boxer (D.-Calif.) that weakened the Helms amendment. Landrieu voted "yes," joining the vast majority of her party.

An interesting story. I had the impression that the Koreans were becoming more anti American, but then that comes from US media. Any truth to this?

Being in the artillery as I was is a relatively safe place to be. However the forward observers and their RTOs were every bit as exposed as the grunts in Viet Nam. The one guy that I knew fairly well who was killed in Viet Nam had volunteered for duty as an FO. During a firefight he was killed while trying to reach other Americans who had been hit by the enemy. Greater love hath no man than that he lay down his life for his brother. Those who are better read in scripture than me can give the proper citation for that.

Those in the media and opposition party who persist in labeling Bush as dumb should consider the following quote from Mark Steyn, a Canadian political commentator. "If Bush is too dumb to be president, how dumb do you have to be to be consistently outwitted by him?"

Yoshimi and Rzarecta need to get lives, respectively. Your genius former president still has much to answer for. As a veteran of the Viet Nam war, I am not dishonored by the fact that Bush did his time in the National Guard of Texas. He never lied about his service. Many people in the National Guard have served with distinction and made the ultimate sacrifice for their country. Clinton was a draft dodger and lied about it. Those were hard times and I have friends today who went to Canada and did other things to avoid military service in a war the country did not believe in. But they never misrepresented to themselves or others their reasons for doing what they did. By his own admission Clinton wanted to remain "politically viable." So it suited his purpose to pretend years later that he was not a draft dodger when in fact that was exactly what he did. Incidentally, student deferments from the non existent draft went away decades ago. Do you guys read the newspaper at all?

ditto to OGE

You got it right. While internal frame packs have much to offer, IMHO, it is an extravagence that most of us can do better without. Growing boys in particular should stick to external frame packs. Buying new boots every 18 months or so to accommodate growing feet is expensive enough. Why punish the budget with a new pack periodically just because the barely used internal frame pack no longer fits?

Under the circumstances you describe it would, IMHO, be appropriate to let all boys in the troop participate in the fund raising opportunity. To do otherwise could create serious divisions within the troop and set off out of control fund raising competitions.

Ewe said it.

What may or may not be true of sheep, does not automatically apply to humans. Homosexual behavior has been observed in various higher order animals, but it doesn't really prove anything one way or another. Interesting observations, but still not relevant to the debate regarding sexual orientation among humans. The advocates of gay rights maintain that homosexuality is not a choice, but somehow determined. The scientific evidence to support this view is very poor. For example there was a study involving sexual orientation among identical twins. The study found about 50% "concordance" with homosexuality. That is, if one of the twins was homosexual, there was a 50% chance the other was also homosexual. This, among other studies, was touted as proof that homosexuality was genetically determined. But wait a minute. Notwithstanding all the other flaws in this particular study, if homosexuality were genetically determined shouldn't the concordance among identical twins be 100%? This particular study result refutes the idea of genetic determination.

Like many, I am puzzled and disturbed by the eagle question regarding Mr. Lambert. Every place I have been, eagle boards are conducted at the district level, not the unit level. Do we know what really happened here? If his mom was scoutmaster at the time, and participated in the board of review at whatever level, that is a clear violation of the rules. There may yet be a ground for revoking the eagle rank, although, as I stated elsewhere, I would be reluctant to do that. Is there any more concrete information available on this aspect of the Lambert story?

OGE What message?

I have no objection to those religions that christians might consider pagan. At least these boys who may be hindus or buddhists (sp?) are involved in something, and that is all that BSA asks. While some may wish that BSA would go after this guy's eagle award, that strikes me as quite vindictive. I don't think any of us know enough about everything involved in this guy's eagle to conclude that it was fraudulently obtained. Personally I would hope that after Mr. Lambert has a few more years to mature and reflect, he might sincerely change his mind again, and honestly sign a new adult application that would be accepted. He seems to have a great deal to offer.

Here's the story from Seattle on Tuesday morning. Like they used to say in Chicago -- vote early and vote often ____________________ Scouts kick out avowed atheist; Kitsap County case drew nationwide attention By Marsha King Seattle Times staff reporter Darrell Lambert E-mail this article Print this article Search web archive The Boy Scouts at the center of an uproar over God kept their promise and revoked Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert's membership for being an atheist. "They just booted me out," said Lambert yesterday, sounding slightly surprised. The Port Orchard 19-year-old learned the news from the Chief Seattle Council of the Boy Scouts, the regional governing body, just minutes before appearing on national TV to explain yet again his reasoning about God. In a cellphone call, council Scout Executive Brad Farmer asked Lambert if he'd had enough time to confer with family and friends and if he'd had a change of heart. Yes, the assistant scoutmaster had given it enough thought. No, he hadn't changed his mind. He still doesn't believe in a supreme being. With that, Farmer told the young man, who's been a Scout since age 9 and earned nearly 40 merit badges, that his membership termination would be in the mail. He can appeal. The council has not answered Lambert's request to be allowed to keep attending troop meetings as an unregistered adult. He fears the troop's charter could be threatened if he attends against council wishes. Last night, at the troop's regular weekly meeting in Retsil, Lambert briefed some of the parents on the week's events. The troop has sent a letter, signed by most of the parents, to the Chief Seattle Council requesting Lambert's membership not be revoked and listing his accomplishments. But the troop does not plan to leave the Boy Scouts. The Chief Seattle Council faxed reporters a statement. In part, it read: "We regret that Mr. Lambert feels his beliefs must be compromised; that is never requested or desired by the BSA. The Boy Scouts of America is a shared values organization and we do not ask anyone to compromise their beliefs just to become a member. ... We only ask those who disagree with the Boy Scouts to show Scouting the same respect." For 92 years, the Scout oath has stated, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country," said the statement. Scouting is broadly ecumenical and also "exists as a voluntary association of like-minded persons," said the Council statement. But to allow some members to ignore one or more principles would be a disservice to the more than 43,000 members of Scouting in the Chief Seattle Council and the 5 million members nationwide who follow the Oath and Scout law, concluded the Council. In making his decision, Farmer "has been in touch all the way up through the regional and national office. This has not been done in a closet," said Karl Duff, chairman of the Seattle Council's Sinclair District, which includes Lambert's Port Orchard troop. "This is not creating anything out of whole cloth. This type of issue has already been to the U.S. Supreme Court." Farmer was not available for comment. Those who oppose the Scouts believe this decision will simply give ammunition to those opposed to Scouting's membership policies. "It's going to be a downward spiral for the Boy Scouts of America unless they change their ways," said Scott Cozza, president of Scouting for All, one such group. "They're going to end up as a very narrow, fundamentalist outdoor program for youth. If that's what they want, they should just be up front about it." Lambert plans to appeal the decision first to the regional office of the Boy Scouts in Tempe, Ariz., and "if regional doesn't listen, I'll go to national," in Irving, Texas. Beyond that, he hasn't decided what to do, though he's made calls to the American Civil Liberties Union. "It's disturbing ... so sad ... that people let them get away with that kind of stuff," said Lambert. He wonders why the Scouts don't make a big deal about enforcing other guidelines, about physical fitness, for example. In 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Boy Scouts' right as a private group to exclude certain leaders and members including gays and atheists. Since then the issue has continued to provoke strong emotional debate. Some Cub packs and Boy Scout troops have dropped membership. Many United Way branches around the country have come up with various ways to avoid contributing to traditional Scouting. Lambert's story first appeared in The Seattle Times last Tuesday and provoked response across the nation scores of e-mails to the newspaper as well as calls for interviews with Lambert and the Scouts from radio and TV stations. Lambert garnered praise for his courage in honestly stating his beliefs and criticism for not coming forth earlier. Lambert said he didn't come forth in his early days of scouting because, "Back then I didn't come out because I didn't have the guts to do it. And I didn't understand what I do now. I wish I would have." He said he has never pushed his beliefs on troop members. Lambert's atheism came to light in October at a leader-training session. Lambert said a district official told him then that he asks scouts whether they believe in God and, if they don't, he kicks them out. Lambert objected and proclaimed he was an atheist. The interchange was relayed up the line. The Chief Seattle Council maintains it is not its policy to confront members about their religious beliefs. But they must attest to a belief in a supreme being on the application to join.

kwc57, Your question about he composition of eagle boards probably has been answered in other threads. From my experience eagle boards are generally run at the district level, not the unit level. In the Conejo District of the Ventura County Council, where we used to live, eagle boards always included at least one adult representative from the candidate's unit and that person was not the scoutmaster. In Aklan District here in Mt. Diablo Silverado Council, district level eagle boards have nobody from the unit. So there don't seem to be any firm guidelines, except I assume that the candidate's scoutmaster is always excluded. There may be some parts of the country that are so thinly populated that eagle boards may be conducted locally, but I doubt it. Certainly in the case of this scout it should have been possible to put together a board of disinterested persons. Perhaps Bob White or others may be more able to shed light on national policies, if any, in this matter.

Carrying the discussion a bit further, parents should NOT being signing their sons' books when the boys are in boy scouts. There is no rule preventing this if the SM has authorized it, but in general we want to wean the boys away from parental signatures. There are some things that parents have to sign, and if a parent is a merit badge counselor, or active leader, they may end up signing off their sons on some things. But the idea is to get boys used to the idea of approaching other adults and their youth leaders for these things.

Darrell Lambert was a guest on Riley's "The Factor" this evening. He was reasonably articulate. Also uniformed in full regalia. If I heard him correctly he also believes that exclusion of homosexuals from membership is wrong.

I don't recall seeing the chartered organization that sponsors Lambert's unit identified anywhere. I wonder if it is a church or affiliated with a church. Mr. Lambert probably has much to offer. But he has set himself apart by his own choice. So he has to accept the consequences of that choice. Question for Bob White: In other threads, if I recall correctly, you stated that the COR has the authority to remove members, both youth and adult, from scouting. In this thread you seem to downplay the role of the CO, and hence the COR, in this regard and assert that only BSA can remove members. I am confused. Please clarify.

This should be viewed as an opportunity to learn more about foods and methods of preparation. The two vegetarian boys should be able to provide a variety of recipes from their parents than can be adapted to camping.

Mr. Lambert's statements and behaviour are inconsistent, and that constitutes a level of deception or dishonesty that is not worthy. But then, who among us is always consistent all the time? A little hypocrisy goes a long way in maintaining civil relations. Having said that, BSA is correct in enforcing its policies. Too bad that this young man will be turned away. Who knows where he might come out in his beliefs in a few years?

This article comes from Bremerton, Washington. I gather that this young man is over eighteen and registered as an adult. Interestingly, his eagle board passed him even though he said to the board that he was an atheist. This one has not headed for court yet and the article does not mention litigation. I presume that BSA would win in court. Interesting. _________________________________- In Darrell Lambert's world, "Capture the Flag" is the ultimate entertainment. A meal cooked over an open fire is gourmet cuisine. And there's no higher honor than the Eagle. But there's no god. And that's unacceptable to the Boy Scouts, an organization he loves and calls "the best place in the world for kids." The 19-year-old Port Orchard resident, an atheist and a leader in Port Orchard's Troop 1531, has been given a week by the Boy Scout's regional governing executive to declare belief in a supreme being and comply with Scout policy, or quit being a Scout leader. "We've asked him to search his heart, to confer with family members to give this great thought before any decision is made," said Brad Farmer, council Scout executive of Chief Seattle Council, Boy Scouts of America. "If he says he's an avowed atheist, he does not meet the standards of membership of our traditional programs and as such cannot participate. We would return his registration fee to him and wish him the best." Lambert can give them his answer: No. If he professed belief in a supreme being, it would be a lie. "I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?" he said. At a meeting of his troop Monday at the chapel of the Washington Veterans Home in Retsil, about a dozen moms and dads agreed to support Lambert, even if it meant risking their troop's association with the Boy Scouts of America. "He's willing to take care of our boys, our country, our land. What more could we ask?" said Tina Nau of Port Orchard. "I don't see where religious beliefs come into play." But, said Mark Hunter, a spokesman for Chief Seattle Council, "We recognize as a faith-based organization that to be the best kind of citizen we need to recognize a higher being." The controversy started about three weeks ago when it came out at a leadership training seminar at Camp Parsons on the Olympic Peninsula that Lambert was an atheist. In a casual conversation and again in an official meeting of the seminar, Lambert argued with a Scout leader from a different troop about whether Boy Scouts who don't profess belief in a supreme being should be expelled. Lambert argued that Scouting should be open to any boy, regardless. The other leader, who could not be reached for comment, said nonbelief is a violation of the Scout law and the Scout oath. In the oath, Scouts promise "to do my duty to God and my country." The law says "a Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." When Lambert says the oath, he omits the part about a god. Lambert knows the oath and the law well. He surprised his mom, Trish, nine years ago by asking to join Scouts. "Darrell was a real loner. He was real intelligent and learned things real quick, but he liked to be alone, and this was a group we're talking about," his mom said. "I kept thinking he would quit." At first, Darrell didn't join in, but with encouragement from his den leaders and Scoutmasters, he joined, and shined, in the activities. "It was like watching a soaring eagle, all of a sudden he was in leadership positions and guiding other boys. It helped him a lot," said Trish Lambert, who has been Troop 1531's scoutmaster for three years. The South Kitsap High School graduate with broad shoulders and a blond buzz cut worked his way to Eagle Scout last year, earning 37 merit badges and holding every leadership position in Troop 1531. Even if his position as a Scout leader is revoked, Lambert cannot lose his rank as Eagle Scout. Lambert said over the years, Scouts gave him something to do nearly every night of the week, with camping trips most weekends. "It kept me out of trouble. In high school, when my friends were out partying and getting into trouble, I was out chasing Scouts around in the woods, playing Capture the Flag," he said. When the opportunity arose this fall to become a leader in Troop 1531, Lambert registered, "glossing over" the "declaration of religious principle" section on the form. Lambert wasn't worried; he informed the Scout leaders who sat on his Eagle Scout review board that he did not believe in a supreme being. The eight leaders approved Lambert's Eagle award anyway. "It wasn't an issue," said Evie Mercer, who sat on the review board and is the mother of a 15-year-old boy in Troop 1531. In fact, because none of the adults asked about his nonbelief, Lambert brought it up during the board. "That to me said a lot about him," said Mercer. So when an official from Farmer's office contacted Lambert on Oct. 21 about his nonbelief, the Scout was surprised. Farmer and Lambert have had several conversations over the past week. On Monday, Farmer told Lambert he had a week to think about whether he had a belief in a supreme being. "We give great latitude to our members as adult leaders as to what they profess as belief," said Farmer. "It can be through a church or religion or greatly unstructured. Mother Nature would be acceptable." If Lambert does not profess a belief, his leader registration fee ($7) will be refunded and his registration revoked. There is an appeals process, but Farmer said he wasn't sure of its details. He also didn't know if any other Scouts had been dismissed for nonbelief. "I just don't know. We don't keep records of that," he said. Scott Cozza, an organizer of Scouting For All, a California-based organization advocating for gay and atheist Scouts, said he gets hundreds of phone calls each year from Scouts who have been expelled. About 60 percent are from gay Scouts; 40 percent from atheists. Lambert has enlisted Cozza's help in his fight. At the meeting Monday, the parents in Troop 1531 told Lambert that they would write a letter of protest to Farmer, too. "Jacob is right on the edge of his Eagle, and I don't know how that would affect him," said Joanne Warren, whose 16-year-old son counts Lambert as his mentor. "But I'm sure if he had to make the choice, Darrell or Eagle Scout, he would choose you Darrell, hands down." Published in The Sun: 10/29/2002

Filter up or filter down?

Not wishing to seem too harsh, but the idea of BSA going to online chartering is very scary. I have seen too many snafus with simple paper based systems in BSA to have any confidence in the ability of BSA at any level to do this. I am not a systems expert, but if the baby can't crawl, it can't be expected to walk.

Hopefully your son will find his niche. It may not be boy scouts. While most of the participants in this forum probably believe that scouting offers much more than other youth programs, there are still opportunities for young people to mature and enjoy themselves other than scouting. Your observations about boorish adult behavior and poor leadership, and how boys respond to parental participation are interesting. I too have had similar experiences or observed similar behavior in other boys. It is difficult for a parent to realize the impact their mere presence may have. I think you are doing the right thing in pushing your son to be less dependent. Good luck.