eisely

The most obvious difference is that LDS sponsored troops do bug out on Saturday nights from weekend events. That is their choice. I also share the perception that many adult leaders are appointed by the church elders. I went through basic leader training several years ago with a couple of younger LDS guys who had been appointed. They were not objecting, and were very sincere and enthusiastic about the training and the scouting program. Maybe this is more of a reflection of the level of enthusiasm that one observes in people of this faith generally. In the town I lived in in Southern California there was an active LDS troop and it was very common to go to merit badge counselors outside of one's own unit. Among the non LDS scouts, the LDS affiliated MB counselors had the reputation of being much more lenient.

Roster7's advice is sound. I also would suggest discussing this with your unit commissioner, if there is one. That person should attend your committee meetings as a disinterested outsider until this gets resolved. To offset the damage with your feeder pack, you need to set up some positive publicity in the pack about your activities. Good luck.

BP was a man ahead of his time in many ways, particularly in his understanding of boys. However, I am not sure of the point of this thread. From my perspective scouting strikes a decent balance between central control of standards in uniforming, safety rules, advancement, etc. and local autonomy at the council and unit level. What's the big deal? Having said all that, there is no question that scouting has become more paperwork driven.

In principle I have no problem with these background checks, although I agree they will be largely ineffectual. A few people will be screened out as a result of this, but serious pedophiles without records will not be screened out with this. I agree that scouts today are probably in greater danger from incompetent outdoor leaders than from pedophiles. If YP is followed, there is little risk of a boy being harmed by a pedophile, although the recent case I posted from Florida shows there is still a risk. I regret that anybody would be motivated to quit scouting over this and I urge you to rethink your position. According to our council's December newsletter there is a new version of the adult volunteer application coming out that specifically mentions these additional background checks. I remain concerned about what kind of databases will be used. We know there are lots of errors and superceded information in these databases. Merry Christmas everybody.

I don't know anything about girl scouting in Michigan, but you should contact your local historical societies and your state historical society. Often these organizations will have archives of local newspapers that can be mined for information. They can also help you structure your research. You should try to identify some of the prominent local leaders from that era who may still be alive and attempt to arrange interviews. I would do the interviews first if possible before doing any archival research, because the interviews will help you focus any archive research you may do.

Excellent.

There may not be any public writing on the subject, but it seems to me as a matter of general principle that any organization that creates and bestows an award has a basic legal right to revoke that award. We see this sort of thing in sports all the time. That may not be the best parallel, but it suggests that BSA would have the right to revoke this award. Having said that, I remain in the camp of those who say leave well enough alone as far as Mr. Lambert is concerned. I am too concerned about motivating my teenager to finish his eagle to waste any energy worrying about taking somebody else's eagle away from them.

Never content to leave well enough alone, troublemaker that I am, I offer the following clipping. Presumably Merlyn Leroy would want all such symbols abolished. Those obnoxious Christians again.... ___________________ Suit Claims NYC Schools Discriminate Against Christians By Jeff McKay CNSNews.com Correspondent December 11, 2002 (CNSNews.com) - During this holiday season, America's largest public school system is allowing the Menorah, a symbol of the Jewish faith; and the Star and Crescent, a symbol of Islam, to be displayed in its buildings. Nowhere in the New York City school buildings, however, will you find a Nativity scene, symbolic of the Christian faith. When Andrea Skoros, a mother of two public school students from Queens, complained to school officials, she says she was rebuffed. As a result, both the Catholic League and the Thomas More Law Center have sued on Skoros' behalf, alleging that the actions of the New York City Department of Education amounted to religious discrimination. The lawsuit is centered on a school policy set forth by the chancellor of New York City schools that prohibits the display of Nativity scenes in the city's schools during the Christmas season, but expressly permits and encourages these schools to display during certain religious holidays and seasonal observances the Jewish Menorah and the Islamic Star and Crescent. "That policy expressly allows the display of secular holiday symbol decorations such as Christmas trees, Menorahs and the Star and Crescent," according to William Donohue, the president of the Catholic League. "It is outrageous that New York City public school officials allow some religious symbols in the schools every December while banning others. Catholics are sick and tired of being discriminated against by bureaucrats who tell us we should be satisfied with a Christmas tree in the schools," Donohue added. Skoros' two elementary school children attend the Edith Bergtraum School and P.S. 184, both located in Queens, New York. At P.S. 184, attended by her youngest son, there are three Menorahs and a three-foot tall Christmas tree inside, near the building's entrance, according to the lawsuit. The U.S. Supreme Court, in past rulings, has labeled the Christmas tree a secular symbol and the Jewish Menorah a religious symbol, according to Richard Thompson, executive director and chief counsel for the Thomas More Law Center. So, if New York City public school officials allow Menorahs to be displayed in their buildings, they should allow a Christian equivalent, Thompson argues. "When you disallow the Nativity Scene by calling it religious and allow other symbols categorized as religious, then you are underlying the fact [that] it becomes a less favorable religion. Legally, this is an issue of parity," stated Thompson. The Thomas More Law Center says it has in evidence a memo sent to teachers in the New York City public schools approving of the display of symbols related to the African-American cultural holiday of Kwanzaa. The Menorah and the Star and Crescent were also listed as acceptable, according to the memo, but no symbols of Christianity were mentioned. "They (New York City Department of Education) say they are following the Constitution. We disagree," added Thompson. Calls to the office of the New York City school chancellor and to the principal of P.S. 184 were not returned. In legal papers filed by the Thomas More Law Center, the goal of the suit is not to erase religion from the public schools, but to ensure all religions, including Christianity, are represented equally. "We're looking for a declaration that the current policy is unconstitutional, and we request in our suit that an injunction is enforced against this policy," said Thompson. "All we have done is attacked a policy we feel is discriminatory," he added.

If your group has the time and money to do a little extra touring, good for you. Last summer we did not and we zipped in and out. We flew into Albuqurque (sp?)and took a charter bus direct to Philmont. Since we were four crews traveling as a council contingent, we enjoyed some economies, but I think it would have been impossible to gain a consensus on side trips, even if everybody was willing and desirous. The one thing we did was take a couple of hours in old town Albuqurque on the way home between our arrival there and our flight time. It is a good idea to arrive the day before your scheduled arrival. Philmont will put you up in tent city and feed you dinner that day and breakfast the next day for a nominal extra charge. This will give everybody's system another 24 hours to start acclimatizing to the altitude. Altitudes at Philmont, even the highest point, are not severe, but both times I have gone, somebody in the group experienced some problems with altitude sickness.

Why would anybody resist the idea of a boy finishing his eagle? Has he met all other requirements as well? It seems to me that a boy returning to the fold is cause for celebration, not what comes across as spiteful resentment.

Gosh...I wonder how they came to call the character "Rawhide Kid."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021203/168/2ssih.html

The days of corporate arm twisting on United Way are not over. These pressures wax and wane line anything else. The year your boss is chair of the local United Way, you will see arm twisting. Decades ago United Way used to fund a few majore charities. Gradually more and more charities qualified and considerable pressure was applied to accept almost anybody. This has the effect of diluting your contributions. Personally I gave up on United Way a long time ago, primarily because of the controversy over scouting. All my cash donations are either to the church or to BSA.

This is a story out of St. Louis Missouri. No boy scouts or scout leaders are involved as far as I know. Nevertheless, the story feeds the suspicions of people like me when it comes to admitting any openly gay adult to scouting. _______________ ST. LOUIS COUNTY Second man is charged with having sex with boy Rolf F. Rathmann, president of a prominent group advocating tolerance for gays and lesbians, was charged with eight felonies Thursday accusing him of sexual contact with an underage boy he met on the Internet. Rathmann, 37, heads Pride St. Louis, which sponsors the annual Pride Festival. He was named in St. Louis County Circuit Court on eight counts of second-degree statutory sodomy. On Wednesday, authorities charged William T. Sandefur, 50, an executive news producer for KSDK (Channel 5), with three counts of first-degree statutory sodomy involving the same victim. Different charges apply because the victim was 13 when he allegedly had sex with Sandefur, and 14 when he allegedly had sex with Rathmann, officials explained. Bail for each man was set at $200,000. Prosecutors said charges against one or more other men who met with the teen may follow. Officials said the victim appeared to have instigated sexual liaisons with the two suspects using an Internet chat room. "A crime was committed regardless of the conduct or intentions of the victim," said St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch. "The theory is that adults are supposed to know better." McCulloch added, "This case in unusual because we have multiple defendants and one victim. Generally, these cases have multiple victims with one suspect." Ken Lanning, a former behavioral profiler with the FBI and national expert on crimes against children, said Thursday, "When people think about sex cases involving children, they picture a creepy predator preying on a sweet little angel. But what people don't realize is that the child very often agrees to sex or even initiates contact with the offender." He noted, "No one keeps these statistics, but the fact that boys are out there hustling for sex is certainly not something that is new or has never happened before." Lanning emphasized, "It doesn't change the fact that there was a crime." The boy's parents called police several weeks ago when they became suspicious about his behavior. He had accepted several unusual phone calls, prosecutors said. Authorities said they had found no connection between the suspects except their relationship with the victim. The teen has cooperated with investigators. "Obviously, this is a troubled youth," McCulloch said. "And he clearly has some conflicts." Police said Rathmann, a flight attendant who lives in the 3800 block of Virginia Avenue, met the juvenile on several occasions at Bluebird Park in Ellisville from June to October this year. Sandefur, of the 3300 block of Watson Road, met the boy in a bathroom of what authorities described only as a high school football stadium in west St. Louis County. Prosecutors said they would offer support for the victim and his family and had no plans to seek any kind of charges against him. Jeremy Kohler of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

Every time I see a story about this kind of situation, or about a scout getting hurt at an event, there are always unanswered questions. The reporters and editors are writing news stories and under the best of circumstances have to be brief. In my opening comment I was implicitly inferring that YP was not followed, but we really do not know.

Interesting and surprising.

nldscout, Are you sure your trailers are registered to the unit?

I really wasn't looking at the number of posts. Although others have passed me in number of posts, I do claim the distinction of being the first "senior member" of the forum (I think).

I had always understood that the troop is not a legal entity, and therefore cannot own anything. However, not owning and not controlling the use of property are not the same thing. This business about funds reverting to the council is a new one on me. If the chartered organization is supposed to own everything, one would think that the funds, upon dissolution, would revert to the CO. Be all that as it may, it seems to me that the two committees ought to talk to one another about this. Leaving it up to the CO to decide who gets to use what is a good way to turn the CO off on scouting and lose everything.

Group Comes to Defense of Boy Scouts Fund drive is set up after United Way chapter ends support over organization's gay ban. By Massie Ritsch, Times Staff Writer A group of Ventura County politicians, community leaders and executives has launched a fund-raising drive to protest United Way's decision to stop supporting the Boy Scouts because of their policy against homosexuals. Now in its third week, the independent campaign has raised more than $30,000, which its organizers will match dollar for dollar, leader Carlos Ortega said. That already surpasses what the Boy Scouts' Ventura County Council stands to lose when the county's United Way chapter cuts off its funding next summer. The Friends of Ventura County Scouts have committed $100,000 to match donations to the local council. "Wherever your community happens to be, the Scouts are there," said Ortega, explaining why he and more than 80 others launched the Friends group to honor the Boy Scouts and protest United Way's "unwarranted and unfair" action. "At some point you have to stand up for the people who've been doing the grunt work in society and say, 'You know what, these are good guys,' " Ortega said. His group's prominent backers include several Ventura County politicians, all Republicans: Rep. Elton Gallegly, Assembly members Tony Strickland and Keith Richman, Sheriff Bob Brooks and Dist. Atty. Greg Totten. Christian broadcasting mogul Edward Atsinger and singer Pat Boone also support the "Tribute to Scouts." United Way of Ventura County decided in 2001 to broaden its antidiscrimination policy, denying funding to any organization that discriminates based on sexual preference. The action followed a Supreme Court decision in 2000 that upheld the Boy Scouts of America's policy, excluding openly gay men and boys from their ranks. Although the court's decision directly affected only New Jersey, where a gay troop leader first brought a lawsuit, the case rippled throughout the United States. Some schools and cities barred Scout troops from meeting in their buildings. Many churches and synagogues also debated their sponsorships. Some donors pulled their money from the Boy Scouts, while others contributed in support of the organization's right to pick its members. Director Steven Spielberg, an Eagle Scout, resigned from the organization's national advisory board. Each of United Way's 1,400 chapters operates autonomously, and Ventura County's chapter is among roughly 55 that have taken formal stances against groups that discriminate on race, religion, sexual preference and other criteria, according to the national organization. In Los Angeles County, United Way stopped supporting local Boy Scout troops in recent years but funds "Learning for Life," an in-school ethics program that is affiliated with Scouting but does not exclude gay leaders, a United Way spokeswoman said Tuesday. United Way and Boy Scouts officials in Orange, Riverside and San Bernardino counties said local troops will not lose United Way funding. Ventura County's United Way "is dealing with donor dollars and we have a fiduciary responsibility to our donors to make sure that our agencies do not discriminate for any reason," board Chairman Samuel L. Vernallis said. United Way offered to fund Ventura County's "Learning for Life" program, but the Scouting council declined the offer. Vernallis said he would donate to the Friends of Ventura County Scouts himself if they had not exploited United Way's stance in recent newspaper ads to stoke their donations. He fears the campaign will hinder United Way's fund-raising. "If they are successful in hurting the United Way campaign, all they're doing is hurting individual clients of our agencies," Vernallis said. One of United Way's largest individual contributors in the county, health insurance executive Denny Weinberg, has withdrawn his support and is giving instead to the Boy Scouts. "I don't want to see United Way stray from its mission and try to set policy for other agencies," Weinberg said. In the current funding cycle, which ends June 30, the Boy Scouts' Ventura County council will continue to receive money from United Way in two ways: $28,716 from the county chapter's Community Care Fund, which distributes donors' contributions to more than 50 agencies; and $21,698 from donors who name the Boy Scouts as the sole recipient of their gift. After June, United Way will no longer fund Boy Scouts through its community fund. "We're disappointed with [united Way's policy], but we respect their right as a private organization to establish their values and live by their values just as we expect the right to establish our values and live by our values," said Dave Graska, the Scouting council's executive director. Losing that money removes only 2% of the Scouts' $1.5-million annual budget, a shortfall the organization could make up without the independent fund-raising campaign, Graska said. * Times staff writers Eric Malnic and Stanley Allison contributed to this story.

For youth protection to work, parents need to know about it. This will be an interesting story to follow. This story is pasted in from a gay publication called Planet Out. Associated Press is also carrying the story. __________ Boy Scout leader accused of molestation Mon Dec 2, 7:10 PM ET Add Community - Planet Out to My Yahoo! Christopher Lisotta, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network SUMMARY: A Boy Scout leader in Brevard County, Fla., has been charged with molesting three pre-teens from his Titusville troop. A Boy Scout leader in Brevard County, Fla., has been charged with molesting three pre-teens from his Titusville troop. Robert King, 50, is being held on $75,000 bail after the Titusville Police picked him up on Sunday for exposing himself and showing the boys gay pornography. King, who is married, invited at least five boys to his home on Friday, telling them they were going to build a Christmas float. That evening one of the boy's parents contacted police about King. According to Titusville police spokesman John Lau, King admitted to authorities he exposed himself to the boys and showed them pornography. King was arrested on Saturday and appeared in court on Sunday, where he was charged with lewd and lascivious molestation and exposure of sexual organs. While the exposure charge is a misdemeanor, the molestation charge is a first-degree felony in Florida, and has a maximum sentence of 30 years and up to a $10,000 fine. Besides the criminal case, the Central Boy Scouts Council, which serves Brevard County, is also launching its own investigation of the case. Just days before King's arrest, Boy Scouts of America (BSA) spokesman Gregg Shields announced the group will require all new adult volunteers to undergo a criminal background check. "We have as our highest goal to protect the children involved in Boy Scouting," Shields said to the Associated Press. "To date, it's been difficult to do such a background check because all of the data is not in one spot." Potential volunteers would be prohibited from working with the BSA if the checks turn up convictions for sex crimes, crimes of violence or drug offenses. The new program would not have made a difference in the King incident, since it is not scheduled to include checks for current volunteers. But Shields noted before the incident in Brevard County that background checks could be required of all volunteers currently working with the BSA. Brevard County officials have not released information about King's prior record. The Boy Scouts, which bans both atheists and gay men from working or volunteering with the organization, has stuck to its position despite protests from outside groups and protestors within the organization. "The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices," the organization said in a February 2002 statement. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you'd like to know more, you can find stories related to Boy Scout leader accused of molestation.

One thing that makes me a bit uneasy about this is the lack of details as to what is in the databases that BSA will rely on. Is this a database of convictions only? Does it include arrest records? In some states, a mere allegation, even if proven totally false and made with malice, of any form of child abuse will put you into the government's database forever. Is this the kind of information that will be used? Clearly BSA has to allow people to see the adverse information and respond to it. There is too much erroneous information out there. Nevertheless this is still a good and important thing to do.

Same to you. Drive safely.

Here's some real news. ______________- Boy Scouts to Require Background Checks By IRA DREYFUSS Associated Press Writer November 27, 2002, 10:32 AM EST WASHINGTON -- The Boy Scouts of America will require criminal background checks of new adult volunteers beginning next year, it announced Wednesday. "New volunteers to the Boy Scouts will have to submit for criminal background checks as of this spring," spokesman Gregg Shields said. The checks will be based on new application forms in which the applicant gives permission for the checks to be done, he said. The forms must be filled out by adult volunteers for scouting's varied arms, including Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Explorer. Those who do not get clearance won't be allowed to join, Shields said. The organization's national executive council engaged ChoicePoint, a background-checking division of the consumer data management corporation Equifax, to handle the job, which scouting will call VolunteerSelect, Shields said. ChoicePoint will review national and state government databases, he said. The requirement will take effect April 1, allowing time for the new forms to be distributed and for the policy change to be explained to all of scouting's volunteers, Shields said. `We have as our highest goal to protect the children involved in Boy Scouting," Shields said. "To date, it's been difficult to do such a background check because all of the data is not in one spot." Membership will be prohibited if the checks turn up convictions for sex crimes, crimes of violence, or drug offenses. Findings in the background checks will be divulged only to the chief executive of a regional scouting council, who would tell local-level scouting officials only that an applicant does not meet the standard, Shields said. Those who are rejected will be given the opportunity to review and challenge any adverse information. The spokesman says the backgrounds of current adult volunteers are not being checked. But he says that might be required in years to come. There are 1.2 million adult volunteers in scouting, but the number of new volunteers varies from year to year, Shields said. Other youth organizations, such as Little League, already require background checks of adult volunteers. The background checks will supplement existing requirements for youth protection, which are conducted on regional and local levels, Shields said. Copyright 2002, The Associated Press

Many scout units at all levels will have families participating who have financial hardships, assuming this is the case. Depending on the financial condition of the unit and the bonafide needs of the families involved, many will provide "camperships" and other forms of financial aid. I am not aware of any official rules or guidelines for this. It is up to the committee if it feels that this is appropriate. Several years ago we had a boy in our troop who came from what would be considered a "dysfunctional" family that wouldn't pay anything. The troop was one of the few outlets this boy had. He was a good kid, and we continued to recharter him as long as he continued to show up.