eisely

This is somewhat off point, but one has to be careful around hot springs too. Lethal bacteria often live in the pools formed by these springs. If one goes in the water, one should be careful to keep your head above the water at all times. As to the original question, I guess that I would cut Youngblood some slack on this. I think we should trust the judgment of those we put in positions of responsibility such as aquatics director.

It is certainly correct that many parents think denial is just a river in Africa. It is also true that many of the boys who are sent home from an activity, suspended, or even removed from scouting, are often those who need it most. This is where the elected youth leaders and the boys committing the transgressions can profit from the experience. From the original posts I got the impression that the SM was not backing up his SPL. Now that is a problem.

Hey BW, lighten up. I think Ed is just using an old expression. I don't think he literally sees crimes everywhere. I am reminded of a point made several years ago in the American Youth Soccer Assn., when I was still refereeing soccer. There are different types of fouls in soccer, some of which are quite dangerous. We were urged to use fouls that we had whistled as a teaching opportunity for the younger players to tell them the hazard, and suggest that they didn't really want to hurt the other players. The same kinds of situations arise in scouting all the time. Occasions for "discipline" are also teaching moments.

Again, we are not being careful with our words. Discipline has at least two meanings. The first definition is punishment. In my dictionary there is also another definition, "...controlled and orderly behavior resulting from training." This is the kind of discipline I have in mind when I say I think youth leadership has a role here. This applies to adherance to the duty roster, conduct on the trail, conduct on the water, conduct on the ropes, or conduct generally. I don't think BW means to say that youth leaders have no role here. Also, picking up on an example offered in another post, how do you handle a situation where a kid has made a mess in a latrine that everybody has to use? Leaving the mess creates a health and safety hazard. Having the other boys clean it up is clearly not fair. Having the kid who made the mess clean it up, after the 15 minute conversation that BW recommends, may be construed as punishment, but it can also be viewed as merely correcting a situation the scout created. Actually a good 15 minute conversation may result in the scout offering to clean it up, or at least acquiescing in the chore. Certainly the kind of conversation BW believes is appropriate, is in fact necessary, regardless of whatever other steps may be taken. Assigning the offending scout to latrine duty for the rest of the outing would be punishment, and would be inappropriate.

This has also been addressed in other threads. I guess I have a problem with the use of the word "punish." If by punishment we mean pushups, extra duties, or corporal punishment, then that is out of bounds. If we mean witholding rewards, such as access to treats, then I don't think that is prohibited. There is a difference between punishment and maintaining order and discipline to ensure that assigned duties are taken care of and safe practices are followed in various activities. If I understand BW correctly the only real recourse is suspension or removal from membership. That can be construed as punishment, but I don't think that BW would look at it that way. It is clear that either of these last two drastic steps are the responsibility of the committee working with the parents and the adult leadership of the troop. Maintaining discipline is primarily the responsibility of the youth leadership. That is part of what leadership is all about. Adults are there to help the youth leaders do their jobs and to ensure that nothing gets out of hand, such as tieing doors shut. Sending a youth home from an activity may also be construed as a form of punishment, but the times I have seen this happen it was usually because the conduct that brought this about was unsafe. There may be an element of punishment in the mind of the scout sent home, and in the minds of the parents, but it has to be presented as an action taken for safety reasons or because the scout was uncooperative.

The only reason I can think of for caring about information this old is for service star purposes. However, the original applications are scarcely the best source of information for this purpose.

I might sympathisize with your concerns, but focus on the positive. There are far worse things in life than red hair. This guy got his eagle!! Celebrate. Have fun.

Scouts shine as they clean shrine By Carlos Bongioanni, Stars and Stripes Pacific edition, Friday, February 21, 2003 Carlos Bongioanni / S&S Daniel Polaski, 13, and Naim Qazi inspect a historic shrine on Kadena. Polaski spearheaded an Eagle Scout project, involving 20 Boy Scouts who put in more than 70 man-hours to beautify the site. Carlos Bongioanni / S&S As part of an Eagle Scout project he planned and supervised, Daniel Polaski, 13, helps clear debris from a bridge and shrine site that had been overgrown with vegetation. KADENA AIR BASE, Okinawa Tucked away in a thicket of jungle, here, a historic shrine lay virtually inaccessible. Over the holiday weekend, a group of Boy Scouts liberated the shrine and a path and bridge that led to it from an overgrowth of foliage. It was a two-day job that Daniel Polaski, 13, spent more than 40 hours planning for his Eagle Scout project. During the execution of his plan, Polaski said he supervised about 20 Boy Scouts from Troop 102 who helped with the effort. The youth said he surveyed the site in January and determined he wanted to improve its appearance and add some safety railings along a bridge that spans a stream running adjacent to the shrine. He said he discussed it with officials at Kadenas 18th Civil Engineering Group Environmental Flight and got their blessing to proceed with the project. The base provided all the materials for the project at no cost to the scouts, said A. Naim Qazi, flight chief. Qazi explained that the base is responsible for restoring historical sites and so was able to donate the concrete, wooden stakes, pebbles and tools and equipment for the cleanup effort. This is a very good, positive thing theyve done to improve community relations, said Qazi, noting that local Okinawans come to the shrine site as a place of worship to offer prayers. When they come here, theyll know that were taking care of their historical and cultural sites. Army Lt. Col. Dennis Polaski said he was proud of his sons interest in the environment and the cultural relics belonging to the people of another society. The father is president of the local chapter of the Society of American Military Engineers, which regularly adopts cultural sites for restoration and maintenance. The elder Polaski said the Eagle Scout project helped his son develop good character traits and leadership skills. Qazi said the base officially would adopt the site during an annual Earth Week ceremony in April. From that time on, SAME members will take the responsibility of maintaining the site. The younger Polaski said it felt real good seeing the project near completion Saturday. In all, the Boy Scouts who participated contributed about 70 man-hours of work, he said. He now needs one more merit badge to make Eagle Scout.

You should also consider the Meramec and Current Rivers in Missouri

What an amazing attitude. Who do these people think they are? Parental participation and attendance has to be managed and ground rules established, but this is wrong. I would continue looking at other troops.

It isn't white water, but how about the Wisconsin River or the Kankakee River? Again, not white water, but the Upper Missouri is nice.

Given that OA goes back to 1916, chances are that few or no other honor societies predate OA. Here is a link to a website somebody created about scouting honor societies. You will probably find this very informative. http://usscouts.org/usscouts/honorsociety/honorscout.html

I have not researched this, but the facts introduced from the record by ML are consistent with my understanding of the case. For what it is worth, I never heard of any photograph of Dale in his uniform with pink tabs or anything like that. I think you are dealing with an urban legend.

BW's point about insurance coverage is very important. Under the circumstances I would not rely on anything this Webelos leader said about any conversation he may have had on this subject. I am not saying he would lie, but we really don't know how he posed the questions. Further, a lot people at the council level get confused on these issues.

One can be sympathetic with this mom's concern about two different meetings, sets of events, etc, but the Webelos leader probably should not have allowed the younger brother to tag along in the first place. It should also be noted that non member youth can participate in scout outings if they are considering joining. While there is no minimum age limitation on this of which I am aware, common sense suggests that such youth should be eligible to join, or eligible very soon, to be invited to participate in scout outings. We routinely create events where we invite second year Webelos to participate as a recruitment device. These are all age appropriate and appropriate to the capabilities of younger boys as we see them. But it would be mistake for everybody to subvert the clear rules and allow this mom to force the younger brother into something he is not ready for.

As the previous posts state, a scout is not registered until he is in the council data base. This is something that needs frequent follow up to ensure that it happens. In my experience the best person to handle this is the advancement coordinator on the unit committee. After the SM has a conference with the new scout and signs the application form, he should immediately get this to the advancement person who then gets it to the council. The advancement person has more frequent interaction with the council on paperwork matters and is in the best position to know if a boy has not been properly picked up in the system. This way the advancement person is also automatically informed when a new boy has joined.

Having Nathan call the district guy is a very smart move. It puts Nathan in charge and ensures that everybody is on the same page.

BW, Thanks for coming in to the dialogue on this. Is there anything in the language cited above that would prevent the council/district from adopting a procedure whereby the scout solicits letters? It seems to me the "designee" could be anybody. Further the council has the latitude to "determine the method or methods to be use..." Your thoughts?

It seems to me that getting letters of recommendation is not adding a requirement. It is just taking the next step in "asking". The idea of providing a form is useful, that way the letters are consistent in the types of information they are providing.

In two different districts in two different councils where we have lived and participated in scouting, the district advancement committee put the burden of getting the letters on the eagle candidate. Procedures varied but generally the scout provided the names to district people, the district provided the point of contact or addressee for the letters, and the scout requested the letters. I am not familiar with any particular form used for this purpose. Frankly it makes sense for the scout to do this. Chasing recommendations for every eagle candidate would be a chore in itself. This way the person with the most at stake assumes the burden. It still requires coordination and follow up. The scout should talk regularly to the district eagle coordinator, if there is such a person, to make sure the scout understands what is expected and that the paper is flowing on schedule.

I am less concerned about the lag in telling you about the incident than the manner in which the information was conveyed to you. I don't think SMs and ASMs are necessarily obligated to run up to a parent every time a kid makes a mistake. IMHO that could create an unfortunate impression on the scouts and the parents. However, if anybody is going to inform a parent when a kid makes a mistake, it should be handled confidentially. The committee shouldn't even get involved in such matters unless the adult leadership is proposing something drastic such as suspension or removal from membership.

It is good that you enjoy your involvement at the district level. I am sure you are making a strong contribution there. It sounds like your troop is in a certain amount of trouble. There have been disagreements among adults from time to time in every unit I have been involved with, but they are generally resolved on the basis of mutual respect and courtesy. Your troop sounds like an exception to me.

My offhand reaction is that 5 or 6 fundraisers for a troop in a year is an unusually large number of fundraisers. We do two car washes each year and that is all. We subsidize summer camp out of this and do other things, but all our outings are supposed to be self supporting. We pay all fees for adult training and underwrite a couple of large outings each year, but that is it.

Everybody I know who has ever done a training course at Philmont has loved the experience. However, I don't think I can get my permission slip signed by the boss.

An interesting thread. I have to admit that my experience at the district level is limited. My general impression after fourteen years as an adult volunteer is that there are serious disconnects between what happens at the unit level and what happens at the district level, and the weakness of the commissioner program is both a symptom of and a contributory factor to that disconnect. A few simple thoughts: I like BW's idea of making roundtable primarily a responsibility of the training staff. I would like to see more information about commissioners and what they can do for a unit introduced into the new leader training. Commissioners should also be urged to attend that training, if only to drop in to meet the new adults over a break time in the training and help them feel welcome. As a new leader, if you do not know that commissioners exist, and their names, how are you to know how to use their assistance? I don't know if the kind of overhaul that BW is suggesting is necessary. There ought to be fixes short of that kind of thing that people could identify and implement.