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Slava, I glanced at your web site. Nice Logo. Who is the guy on horseback in the middle of the fleur de li?

Now I'm really confused as to what these guys are doing. _______________________ Gay Boy Scout cast out in Philly Thu Jun 12, 8:04 PM ET Add Community - Planet Out to My Yahoo! Christopher Lisotta, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network SUMMARY: Just weeks after the local Philadelphia council of the Boy Scouts of America passed a resolution to add sexual orientation to its nondiscrimination policy, it expelled an 18-year-old scout for being openly gay. Just weeks after the local Philadelphia council of the Boy Scouts of America passed a resolution to add sexual orientation to its nondiscrimination policy, it expelled an 18-year-old scout for being openly gay. Gregory Lattera, a Life Scout (one level below Eagle Scout), received a letter from the Cradle of Liberty Boy Scouts of America (BSA) Council June 7. It said, "We have received information that has compelled us to revoke your registration. We therefore request that you sever any relationship you may have with the Boy Scouts of America." The letter said that Lattera, who has spoken publicly about being gay and being in the scouts, violated a "don't ask, don't tell" rule that prevents scouts from talking about their sexuality. "It broke my heart," Lattera said to the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network about receiving the letter. "It was something that was very upsetting to me." Lattera has been involved in the BSA for seven years, and for the past three summers has worked at a local BSA camp. In May, the Cradle of Liberty Council passed the nondiscrimination order under pressure from the United Way, a nonprofit organization that provides funding to BSA councils. The United Way has said that since the BSA discriminates against gays in terms of membership and employment, it can longer fund the council. According to Scott Cozza, founder of Scouting For All, a group that is trying to change the BSA's anti-gay policy, the move infuriated the BSA's national office in Irving, Texas, which has been adamant that local councils follow the national discrimination policy to the letter. "BSA National decides membership for people whose opinions oppose theirs," Cozza said to the Gay.Com/PlanetOut.com Network. William T. Dwyer III, the Cradle of Liberty Council's chief executive officer, said the decision to oust Lattera was purely a local one, which had nothing to do with BSA National. "He decided to hold a press conference to come out as a member of the gay community, and also a potential employee and past employee of the Boy Scouts," Dwyer said to Knight Ridder Newspapers about Lattera. "Our staff knew he was gay and never made a big deal about it. He decided to make a big deal about it. The 'don't ask, don't tell' policy is pretty clear." Center for Lesbian and Gay Civil Rights executive director Stacey Sobel, who is representing Lattera, argues the council has no written "don't ask, don't tell" policy, either in its bylaws or in the recent nondiscrimination clause. "They are not living up to their own values," Sobel said to Gay.com/PlanetOut.com. "It's very clear they are being dishonest here. This was not the intention of the policy they signed." In the meantime, Lattera said, he was now focused on finding a new summer job, since the BSA has rescinded its offer of employment at a BSA summer camp. "I'm going to keep trying, whether I'm 90 or on my deathbed, to get the Scouts to change their ways," Lattera said.

I misunderstood your original point. What you are getting at is sashes hung over a belt. I envisioned a sash worn over a shoulder and somehow tucked under a belt. Hence my question. Sashes belong over the shoulder. The right shoulder specifically.

I have to agree with the other posters who point out that parents have a right to be concerned about such things regardless of their own involvement or lack thereof as a volunteer supporting the unit. They also have an obligation to express their concerns to you or other responsible adult leaders (such as CC) directly. As both BW and the Man of Steele have pointed out, it would appear that she has violated no standards of membership, but the chartered organization is also entitled, indeed obligated, to make its own judgment. The point is also well taken about the apparent double standard regarding homosexuals. Good luck.

I don't have the time or opportunity to look at every thread on this forum, so this is the first time I have looked at this one. This is very disturbing. What is most disturbing is the apparent attitude of the other members of the committee. At this point you have little choice but to change units. Even if this abusive leader is removed from his position, as would seem justified, my guess is that the other adults and youth in the troop will always blame you and your son for the outcome. Hopefully your son will still see the value in scouting and come to understand that no human institution is perfect or always lives up to its own ideals. Such institutional failures are not by themselves grounds for abandoning the institution unless the situation crosses some further boundary I cannot define. Find another troop while there is still time.

Infantry soldiers are experts at lightening their loads. Soldiers make strong judgments early in campaigns about what they really need. Scouts of course are a bit different. Sounds like you are good to go.

Fancy that. The media report was in error. Shocking - truly shocking. We wouldn't be talking about The New York Times would we?

I concur with The Man of Steele and BW. This raises an interesting question. Why is this an issue in your unit? Is a single individual actually performing all these roles? There have to be different names in these positions, but are they merely phantoms?

BW, Speaking of customization...this takes the thread off in a slightly different direction, but I think appropriately so. The boy scout Outdoor Leader Skills syllabus strives to introduce leaders to all the skills required for the rank of First Class. Thinking of some things that have come up on other threads, I think some degree of customization where local conditions vary is appropriate. For example, in the thread on Sheath Knives, it came out the the scouts on Guam use machetes for good and sound reasons. I would think adult leader training for scouters in that part of the world should logically cover machetes under "woods tools" while it is clearly irrelevant in my part of the world. I am sure that there are other areas where some degree of local customization would be appropriate. What say you?

It is my understanding that the black sash with the white arrow was the original sash. I think they were discontinued in the 40's. Under the general principle that one can wear older uniforms until they wear out, I suppose one could wear the older sash if that was what you received when you first inducted. There are probably members still alive who received that sash originally. If somebody is wearing a reproduction, or one that they bought on e-bay, then that is probably a uniform violation. I have also seen sashes with various insignia added, including a pictogram representation of the legend on the back. As BW says, these people may be abusing the uniform.

What was your favorite outing?

Man of Steele, Neither sash to be worn over the belt? Hadn't heard that one before. Strikes me as a little impractical. Please elaborate.

For whatever reason, local councils have in the past applied their own names to the same syllabi. Here in Mount Diablo Silverado Council, Scoutmaster Fundamentals used to be called "Bear Paw". Don't ask me where that came from. I have no idea.

If you copy the link below into your browser it will take you to a picture of a protest outside the recent national BSA meeting in Philadelphia. The man in the uniform is Scott Cozza, father of Eagle Scout Steve Cozza, the founder of "Scouting for All". I don't care if Mr. Cozza protests BSA policy but I don't think he should be wearing his uniform while doing so. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030529/168/4882i.html

I have had an LED headlamp for two years now. My only complaint about it is that it doesn't throw clear shadows. This makes going over rough terrain in the dark a little bit more dicey. But for food prep, reading, playing cards, and general camp work in the dark, they are outstanding.

Racists are made, not born. There is a song from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical "South Pacific." It is kind of a lament sung by Lt. Cable about his reluctance to get involved with a polynesian woman. The words, if I recall them correctly, run something like this... You have to be taught to be afraid Of people whose skin is a different shade, or people whose eyes are oddly made, You have to be carefully taught. You have to be taught year by year, It has to be drummed into your dear little ear... You get the drift.

Bob White's response cites the only place where permission slips are hinted at. They are not required, but using a formal written permission slip provides written confirmation of the parents intentions. I can think of a few nightmare scenarios. What if the parents had plans for a weekend and the scout just went on an outing that he wanted to attend without telling his parents what he was doing? Unlikely, but certainly possible. Suppose the parents call the cops? Unlikely but possible. A little piece of paper can go a long way towards avoiding such situations. Only a Class I medical form is required for non-strenuous events of less than 72 hours duration where medical assistance is readily available. I don't think any "consent to treat a minor" is contained in the Class I form, but I could be wrong about that. Suppose that I am right, and you have those in your possession on an outing where medical treatment is required and that is all you have. Few medical facilities are going to treat this scout without the parents' clear and unequivocal permission that a well drafted permission slip provides. Do you want to see treatment delayed while somebody tracks down the parents? There are many ways to deal with the permission slip problem. We use a form that even includes space for the scout to sign acknowledging that he is financially responsible for food and supplies purchased for the outing even if he ends up not going. Don't leave home without them, whatever they may look like!!

The district in which I currently reside runs a separate camporee type event called Webelos Woods. Since you boys were beyond this in age when we moved here, I have not personally seen what happens there. I understand that it complies with all Webelos camping policies and incorporates age appropriate competitive events.

Matua, Trail clearing? Camp site clearing? These are major no-no's here on the mainland. Perhaps on Guam there are no trails, or things just grow so fast that leave-no-trace is not an issue. Tell us more.

le V. You will notice that I referred to "ordinary camp chores." For real whitewater experiences and scuba diving people should have sheath knives and be properly trained in their use.

I had a sheath knife when I was a scout. When I became an adult volunteer many years later I was told that sheath knives are forbidden, but that is just another urban legend. G2SS mentions but does not prohibit sheath knives. Having said all that, sheath knives should be discouraged. There is nothing in the way of ordinary camp chores that a folding knife cannot do as well as a sheath knife. And with a folding knife you can get other useful tools. Why carry the extra weight of a larger single purpose tool? It is my understanding that under California law, any blade longer than two inches is considered a weapon. The hijackers on 9/11 used blades far shorter than that to do their dirty work. Why buy into extra risk with sheath knives?

KS Congrats to you and your son. OA is a significant honor. I hope that it works out for you at your new duty station. Hawaii...tough duty. Are you going to have a new moniker...Hawaii Scouter? Maybe Air Force Scouter? 92_SPL The Order of the Arrow is the officially recognized national honor society withing the Boy Scouts of America. There are numerous local honor societies, but OA is the only national honor society. Membership really is a three step process: 1. Determination of eligibility 2. Election by peers at the unit level 3. Completion of an Ordeal To be eligible for election youth must be at least First Class, approved by their unit leader, and have completed 15 nights of camping in the 24 months preceding election under "the auspices and standards of the Boy Scouts of America." Of these 15 nights, 6 must be consecutive nights in a long term camp, and the remainder must come from short term camping events. This can become quite a record keeping headache at the local unit level, but it has to be done if the unit is to have its boys considered for OA. Elections are to be conducted by an election team of OA members. Ideally at least two of these should be from another unit. The election procedure itself is fairly involved and I don't want to get into it here. Suffice it to say that the voters are all the youth members of the unit. The OA members are not in the business of picking new members. Each unit is entitled to have one election annually if they have any youth who meet the eligibility requirement. Once elected, a youth is considered a "candidate". Candidates become members by participating in an "ordeal" which usually takes place over a weekend. Some ordeals are conducted at summer camps in some councils. Candidates have twelve months to complete their ordeal, ortherwise their candidacy expires. Candidates who do not complete an ordeal can be re-elected by their unit in a subsequent election if they then meet the eligibility requirement. It is the prospect of his candidacy lapsing that KS was referring to in his original post. Adult scouters are also eligible for OA. Adults have to meet the same "nights camping" requirement, but do not have to meet the rank requirement. Eligible adults are nominated by their unit committee. Once approved by the OA adult advisor hierarchy (for lack of a better word) adult nominees become candidates. Adult candidates go through the same ordeal as the youth to become members. Adult candidates also have twelve months to complete an ordeal. Concerning "preparing for the surprise", if you are a candidate you will receive communications from the OA lodge (lodges correspond to councils) about what to bring to your ordeal. More than that I will not say.

I agree with the insight that swimming per se is not much help in a serious situation. That is why we wear PFDs. That said, I think the requirement is still sound, if only for the confidence it instills. Boys will want to get into the water during periods when the camp is set up, and all the work is done, and there is no reason that they shouldn't, given all the rules being followed. I also have found it possible and desirable to have boys work on and usually complete canoeing merit badge on these trips. There are some requirements for that badge that require the boys to go into the water, and BSA swimmer is a minimum pre requisite. One still wonders why parents would want to put their son into what they perceive as a very dangerous situation. If the boy really can swim or at least has met the BSA swimmer test, he should do fine. If the parents are so afraid of the prospect then they should no allow their son to go.

Ozemu, Typically canoes used for expeditions here in the states are no longer than 17 feet. They are designed for two paddlers. I have put four paddlers, with no gear in such a canoe for the fun of it, but fooling around, or racing, is not the same thing as executing a multi day expedition. Three paddlers makes the canoe almost uncontrollable. It is far better to have two paddlers and one passenger, with everybody taking turns as a paddler. I don't think the eight inches of freeboard is spelled out anywhere in a rule book but it if even moderate wave action on a lake, or anything approaching white water is anticipated, less than eight becomes unsafe. I don't know the conditions under which the canoes you have seen are operating. Racing under controlled ideal conditions requires very little freeboard. Maybe that is what your talking about.

It is my understanding the BSA was one of the founding organizations of the national United Way. United Way has a generally good track record for fund raising efficiency. That is to say, the percentage of revenues devoted to fund raising is quite low compared to many, if not most, other charities. Employers have always enthusiastically backed United Way because it made it possible for them to turn away other independent charities seeking the privilege of payroll deduction. This is one of the sources of efficiency for everybody's benefit. It is too bad that the positive gains of the United Way concept are being disregarded in the interest of political agendas.