eisely

Hopefully the church secretary's demand was made out of ignorance. It is hard for me to imagine any church asking for background checks on its adult members. Background checks for leaders of youth groups such as scouts are one thing, but all the parents? This makes no sense. I can understand how the catholic church is up tight about youth activities in light of the scandals in some areas of the country, but this is a serious over reaction. Possibly the fevered brain of some lawyer somewhere came up with this idea.

The more I hear about how BSA goes about the occasional revocation of membership, the more disturbed I am. If BSA is so valuable and important to the youth of the community, and the adult volunteers who make the program work, then it would seem to me that anybody who is falsely accused and denied even the minimal information about the allegations would have a basis for litigation. I find it hard to imagine that any organization that promotes the ideals that scouting promotes would deal with people in what appears to be a very shabby manner.

Based on what you have written, you are right to be frustrated. Dealing with these issues is really the Committee Chair's job, but I also sense that there is more at stake here. I have never seen a troop where one individual handled all the outing arrangements. While there is no guidance from BSA on this division of labor, outing arrangements are really the responsibility of the adults who have agreed to assume responsibility for the outing, working through the boys as much as possible. It is too much to ask of one individual to do all that for all activities. Besides, as a trek leader, I wouldn't want somebody else doing this stuff for me. There is little or no excuse for the poor performance of the advancement coordinator. It is a big job, but that person must be prepared to step up to the plate when the surges arrive. Otherwise someone else has to do it. Advancement is one of the eight methods of scouting, but it loses impact and meaning when it is mishandled like this. If the volunteer situation is as bad as you imply, perhaps it is time for a "come to Jesus" meeting with the parents. That again is the committee chair's job. People have to be asked. Some will offer, but many will respond only when asked. Good luck.

Very good.

National Jamboree in Valley Forge in 1957. Went to the biggest outdoor mass I think I ever saw. More bishops and priests on that stage than I ever saw before or since. The night before departure, my patrol and I sneaked across the Pennsylvania Turnpike (stupid stunt) to the Howard Johnson's that was plainly visible from our camp site and calling to us all week. Canoeing on the Lake of the Ozarks. Went out for a solo paddle in the morning mist among the reeds. Almost jumped out of my skin when a heron took off with a loud squawk (sp?) a few feet away from me. Finishing the Lincoln Trail from New Salem to Springfield in July. Philmont with my sons. Watching my middle son hit the water to finish his last requirement for canoeing merit badge when the older scout with him tipped the canoe. Sunrise over the Berkeley hills earlier this spring on my vigil.

You should endeavor to make the boys as responsible for as much as they can handle. For example, if the boys want to trek in a fee area where a permit is required, some adult has to be involved. Ideally, a boy would be detailed to work with the adult to make the necessary contacts and reservations. Officials responsible for the site will want the name, address, etc of a responsible adult on the permit, and probably will need a credit card number. A boy cannot provide these things by himself. But there is no reason they cannot participate in the process. Similarly with everything else involved in putting a trek together. The more you allow, encourage, and even require them to do, the more they get out of the experience. It is called developing leadership.

I would still carry some "bad" carbs in snack bars for emergency situations. I have gotten weak from low blood sugar myself a couple of times on the trail and have seen at least two youth who did not eat proper breakfasts suffer the same. Having some easily digested quick carbs available on the trail is, IMHO, a necessary first aid item for leaders to have available, although I would not recommend relying on these as the primary food for the trek.

I thought that California had strange laws. I wonder how many other states have similar laws exempting non profits from civil liability in similar matters. When I first saw the headline I thought two scouts had died, but apparently these boys were not scouts participating in a scout sanctioned and operated event. Such deaths are tragic and usually avoidable, but $30 million sounds a little too opportunistic to generate much sympathy from me. Sure validates scout safety procedures. ______________________ Ruling: Church, Boy Scouts immune from suit Exception allows attorneys to go forward with case By Jessie Halladay Daily Press August 16, 2003 HAMPTON -- A Hampton judge ruled this week that a local church and the Boy Scouts of America are immune from a lawsuit filed by the parents of two boys who drowned at a James City County camp last September because they are charities. Circuit Court Judge Christopher Hutton ruled in a letter released Friday that both the Boy Scouts and the Iglesia Cristiana Camino a la Luz in Hampton qualify for charitable immunity. Groups that qualify for charitable immunity are exempt from lawsuits seeking damages. The fathers of 14-year-old Jordan Feliciano and 17-year-old Maximino Feliciano Jr. sued the church and the Boy Scouts for $30 million. The lawsuit accuses church leaders of not properly supervising the boys, who were cousins. The Boy Scouts are named in the lawsuit because they own Camp Chickahominy, where the boys drowned. Joseph Stellute, attorney for the Feliciano families, said they will appeal the decision to the Virginia Supreme Court. Despite the judge's ruling or the result of the appeal, Stellute said the lawsuit can still go forward because of an exception to the charitable immunity rule. That exception allows Stellute to continue his argument that the church was negligent by not providing a qualified lifeguard for the outing. Hutton's ruling comes after hearing arguments from the church and the Boy Scouts in July. In order to prove charitable immunity, the groups have to show that they are a nonprofit charity and that those suing benefited from their services. During the July hearing, Stellute argued that the boys did not benefit from the Boy Scouts, who merely provided the land for the church outing. As for the church, Stellute argued that they do not qualify as a charity because they do not follow their bylaws to the letter - making them not a legal church. In his ruling, Hutton disagreed - writing that the Felicianos benefited both from the Boy Scouts and the church, both viable charitable groups.

The Man of Steele makes a very good point about media errors. When we post these kinds of articles we have to keep in mind that we are merely posting somebody else's version of the facts. Even in news media that I really respect, I always find errors when they are reporting about subjects that I feel that I really know a great deal about.

Clearly reasonable physical fitness is a minimum requirement for adults. After that, the question is, who can make this the most successful for the boys? Prior experience at Philmont is desirable in an adult leader, but should not be the dominant criterion. If I were making such a decision myself, I would tend to favor adults who were demonstrably capable leaders who had not been to Philmont before, just to allow more people to enjoy this rare experience. I was fortunate to go there twice, but I would defer in the future to someone who had not gone at all but was clearly eager and able to go

In re reading the original article, it states that the subject was discussed in the unit committee and that the committee approved including the non discrimination statement in the recharter application. This still leaves the youth out of the decision making process. One does wonder if at least some of the youth members aren't looking for a different home in scouting as we speak. I suspect if different leadership stepped forward and the CO was willing, the unit could be rechartered if it chose to comply.

This news item just popped up. For those not familiar with Northern California, Sebastopol is a town in Sonoma County, North of San Francisco. Among other things, Sebastopol declared itself a nuclear free zone many years ago, and if I understand correctly, as a matter of policy will not cooperate with federal agencies in the movement of nuclear materials. Not that it matters, since Sebastopol is not near any major route or military base. Just another symbolic gesture. _______________________ Sebastopol Scouts' charter pulled over anti-bias policy Boy Scouts of America says no leeway in ban against gays August 14, 2003 By GUY KOVNER THE PRESS DEMOCRAT A Sebastopol troop has lost its Boy Scouts of America charter for refusing to drop an anti-discrimination statement that Scouting officials say conflicts with the organization's national policy banning homosexuals. Bev Buswell, lead adviser to the 16-member Venture Crew 488, said her application for charter renewal was denied because it included a statement she wrote pledging the crew would not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation and other factors. Local and national Scouting officials say there is no leeway in adhering to the 93-year-old organization's membership standards. "The policies of the Boy Scouts of America are not pick and choose," said Ralph Voelker, who takes over Friday as executive of the Redwood Empire Boy Scout Council, covering Sonoma, Mendocino, Humboldt and Del Norte counties. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in June 2000 that the 3.3 million-youth-member Boy Scouts, as a private organization, has a right to ban gay members and leaders. On its Web site, the Boy Scouts of America states: "We believe an avowed homosexual is not a role model for the values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law." The Scout Oath, including a commitment to stay "physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight," often is cited as justification for prohibiting gay Scouts and leaders. Critics, including Buswell, say Scouting's opposition to homosexuality is dictated by conservative national leadership and by churches that sponsor more than half of Scout troops and packs. "I feel like they stole Scouting," she said. Involved in Scouting since age 16, Buswell said she was troubled by the ouster of gay Scout leaders and Scouting critics, including Dave Rice of Petaluma, a 59-year Scouting veteran removed as an assistant Scoutmaster in 1998. Buswell said she drafted her first anti-discrimination statement three years ago and included it in her charter renewal application in December, knowing it might prompt the crew's termination. "I actually felt it was my Scout duty," Buswell said. "I feel strongly that a terrible injustice is being done with this policy." Buswell said she told crew members about the statement, but did not ask for their opinions. "I've been pretty careful not to involve the youth," she said. Mariana Thorn, a former Crew 488 member, said she was dismayed by the fate of the group, which she said was "absolutely the highlight of my high school life." But Thorn, an Analy High School graduate and now a junior at UC Santa Cruz, said she agrees with Buswell's protest. "A gay person can be a perfectly good role model," she said. The anti-discrimination statement was approved by a parent committee that helps run Crew 488, said Merryl Mendelson of Sebastopol, the committee's chairwoman. Mendelson said Scouting was "very close-minded" about prohibiting homosexuals. "It needs to be open to everybody," she said. But Voelker said any Scout unit or regional council would risk loss of its charter by adopting an anti-discrimination statement, as Buswell proposed to the Redwood Empire Council. "We would no longer exist as an organization," he said. In June, Roy L. Williams, national Scout executive, issued a memo stating that no local council "is permitted to depart from BSA membership policies." Williams said he was "unaware of any council that is not in compliance." Buswell, 44, a Sebastopol real estate broker, said a meeting last month with a Scouting official failed to find common ground. "We agreed to differ," she said. Buswell, a veteran Scouting leader, said 65 teen-agers and 21 adult leaders had participated in Crew 488 since 1996. The crew, which engages in such high-adventure activities as backpacking, caving, whitewater rafting, surfing and snow camping, is now in limbo because it lost the insurance provided by the Boy Scouts. Buswell said she hopes to revive the crew through affiliation with the YMCA, Camp Fire, West County Community Services or some other organization. Venturing, a Boy Scouts of America youth development program for men and women ages 14 to 20, has 315,296 members, nearly 10 percent of Scouting's total youth membership. Buswell, a former Boy Scout troop leader, joined Crew 488 when her daughter, Alyssa, turned 14. "We turn it up a notch," she said, referring to the crew's involvement in rugged outdoor activities. "You learn survival and self-reliance," she said. Laurie Stoumen, a Sebastopol landscaper whose daughter was in Crew 488 two years ago, said she supports Buswell's stand. "I don't believe in discriminating against anybody," said Stoumen, whose deceased brother was gay. "The whole thing is very personal to me." To protest Crew 488's loss of charter, Buswell and others said they will stage a protest Aug. 21 in front of the Redwood Empire Council's office. She holds little hope of a resolution, but Buswell said that in training Scouts for citizenship merit badges she advocated "standing up for what you believe in." The current Scouting controversy is not the first in Sonoma County. Steven Cozza, 18, a Petaluma Eagle Scout and now a world-class junior bicyclist, launched a national protest against Scouting's ban on gays in December 1997. Cozza still attends rallies when his bicycle training schedule permits, and his petition asking Scouting to change the policy has more than 90,000 signatures, said his father, Scott Cozza. Scouting groups can maintain a no-discrimination policy only if they keep quiet about it, said Scott Cozza, who was ousted as a Petaluma assistant Scoutmaster in 1998. VENTURE CREW 488'S STATEMENT The Leaders of Venture Crew 488 hereby state that we will not discriminate in accepting membership applications from youth or adults on the basis of race, creed, gender, color, religion, marital status, sexual orientation, physical handicap, income, ancestry, or national origin. We will instead judge on the integrity and character of each applicant...

Regarding the length of the sash, here is a suggestion. Get the long sash. Young boys will grow into them. You can take up some of the extra length at the top of the sash where it rests on the shoulder. Mak a loop in the fabric on the inside and stitch it across. Press it and chances are it will not be noticeable. Saves moving all those patches to a longer sash later on.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the Insignia Guide readily at hand. I do know that "temporary insignia" are allowed on the back of the sash. "Temporary insignia" are those things that go on the right breast pocket of the uniform, such as camp patches. The guide recognizes that boys accumulate these kinds of things and can wear them only one at a time on the pocket. I would rather see these things on the merit badge sash than worn improperly on other parts of the uniform. The question regarding the patches in question is whether they would fall under the general rubric of "temporary insignia." Frankly, I would just as soon see them on the sash as any place else, regardless of what anyone might say.

I would think that this patch could also be worn on the back of the merit badge sash along with other high adventure awards and miscellaneous "temporary insignia." Any objections to that idea?

Interesting thought. There are many ways of looking at this. Judging from the themes presented in art, music, film, advertising, and other media, I would have to say we are becoming more barbaric. Is it really necessary to include the F word in every other sentence and lyric to make a point? When so called "performance artists" smear themselves and religious images with feces is this a step forward? Our advertisiing is saturated with sex. One sees little girls dressed more like street walkers than little girls. Having children out of wedlock is socially acceptable. Even this week Katie Kouric interviewed some young actor on the Today Show whose girl friend is pregnant. When asked if the couple intended to marry, he blew off the idea, at the same time as he is looking forward to having a child. And this behaviour and attitude is treated as totally acceptable without regard for the consequences for the unborn child. As a people we are less god fearing. Religious conviction of any kind is held up to ridicule in entertainment and so called news coverage. Just a few random thoughts. I find it hard to be optimistic.

The Man of Steele has a point. It would appear that all the right things were done in terms of compliance with YP, yet this happened. Let's blame Hollywood!!! Where did the older kid get this idea anyway?

People in a venture crew, both youth and adult, who may have been inducted in OA in a different setting would, IMHO, be absolutely entitled to wear their sash, and other OA insignia, consistent with the Insignia Guide. Since sashes are generally worn only at OA events, the issue would seem to be moot for venture crew folks.

I could probably look this up myself, but does anyone know if there are special procedures in G2SS for using black powder? We sometimes used a salute gun at our camp when I was a scout. It was smaller than the piece that is described in the story and fired blank shot gun cartridges. Blanks can injure. Never fire a blank cartridge towards someone and make sure the target area is clear of people just like for using real bullets.

Boy Scout Allegedly Raped At Summer Camp Wed Aug 6,12:23 PM ET Add Local - KMBC TheKansasCityChannel.com to My Yahoo! Authorities are investigating the alleged rape of a 12-year-old Boy Scout at a summer camp. Parents of the victim and said leaders at the H-Roe Bartle Camp failed to respond properly to the incident. The boy's family returned to Osceola, Mo., where the camp is located, to file the first report on the incident Tuesday, KMBC's Bev Chapman reported. The victim was at the camp for the first time when he was allegedly assaulted by a 14-year-old boy who was sharing his tent. A member of the victim's family said the boy was traumatized by the event. "He left the tent and proceeded to run and scream, which woke the leader up and several of the other adults," the family member said. "He's ashamed to look at his mother more than anything, because it makes his mother cry." Mike Johnson, a Boy Scout spokesman, said the Scouts are shocked by the allegations, and are doing what they can to assist with the investigation. "We are cooperating with authorities. Our primary concern is for the victim and the victim's family," Johnson said. "We take it very seriously to help the adult leaders, parents and scouts to know what to do in this situation." But family members disagree. They say the Scouts "didn't respond in the way they should have." A spokesman for the St. Clair County Sheriff's Office said the camp didn't notify authorities until after the boys involved were sent home. The victim saw a counselor after the incident, but was sent back to his tent to spend the night alone, KMBC's Bev Chapman reported. The next morning, the boy was allowed to go swimming, which further complicated an investigation that is proving difficult for the child. "He had to get shots to prevent venereal disease. He had his blood tested for AIDS," the boy's family member said. A Boy Scouts representative said there was some confusion because the victim first downplayed the nature of the incident. It wasn't until he spoke with a chaplain that the boy admitted being raped. Some 6,500 boys attend the camp each year. The victim's family hopes going public with their ordeal will encourage other parents to talk to their children about the incident, Chapman reported.

You need to be fully aware of the load capacity of the canoes you will be using. This will govern how much stuff you take along. I look at a short downstream trip like this as glorified car camping, unless there are a lot of rapids. A good tripping canoe probably can carry 1000 lb of people and cargo safely. You do need to limit what people take nevertheless. For a two day trip on the Wisconsin River, I would think you could generally dispense with dehydrated food altogether and really challenge your cooking skills. You can probably even take along an ice chest. You still need to plan for early starts in the morning. Most foul weather and wind occurs later in the day, so I would avoid fancy breakfasts, but make up for it with real food for the evening meal.

Should read "over the gay issue."

This is the first public mention I have ever seen about national threatening to revoke the charter of a local council of the gay issue. I don't know how much truth there is to this report, but for what it is worth, here it is. _________________________________ United Way Charity Suspends Scout Grants Over Gays Fri Aug 1, 1:50 PM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo! PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A Philadelphia-based United Way charity suspended funding to the nation's third-largest Boy Scout council after the group capitulated to a national Scout ban against homosexuals, officials said on Friday. The United Way of Southeastern Pennsylvania canceled the second half of an annual $400,862 grant to the Boy Scouts' Cradle of Liberty Council, saying the Scout group did not comply with the charity's policy of not discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation. The grant represents over 6 percent of the council's budget. In June 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled that the Boy Scouts of America could bar homosexuals as troop leaders. The Boy Scouts of America National Council claimed the ruling as a victory, saying "an avowed homosexual" was not a proper role model for youth. The Cradle of Liberty Council, which serves 87,000 youths in Philadelphia and its Pennsylvania suburbs, defied national leaders in May by adopting its own nondiscrimination policy toward gays. But the group later rescinded the policy and agreed to oust an openly gay scout after the Irving, Texas-based national council threatened to revoke its charter. The United Way, which also suspended a grant to a smaller suburban Boy Scout group near Philadelphia this week, said the money would be reinstated in both cases if the Scout councils complied with its nondiscrimination policy. Local and national Boy Scouts officials were not immediately available for comment. But the charity's move was not the only headache confronting Scout leaders in Philadelphia. The Boy Scouts' ban on gays has already prompted the Pew Charitable Trusts to suspend a $100,000 grant to the Cradle of Liberty Council. The Philadelphia Inquirer also reported that the City of Philadelphia was looking into whether the Boy Scouts should continue to use city-owned property as their headquarters.

There is an entire thread under "Open Discussion" entitled "50 miler primarily afloat" that has lots of suggestions. I am not a sophisticated enough user to paste in a link for you. The last post in that thread was on 4/29/02. Check it out.

I don't know who litigated against the scouts on this. I suspect it was the ACLU. I cut them off years ago.