eisely

Council screwing up recharters is not an isolated problem. I have always made photocopies of anything I submit that is destined for the council service center.

Welcome to Mt. Diablo Silverado. I am in the Aklan District, but I know some of the scouters in Chief Solano. You will do well.

I strongly agree that allowing greater participation by women has been very good for scouting in the US. Zeiger's statement does lump all these changes together. Regarding numbers, I did a little research.

Zeiger says that there were 320,000 members in 1965. (Zeiger refers to scouts, the numbers I cite below include adult members.) The newspaper article is consistent with this statement. I found two annual reports for Scouts Canada on line. Their reporting period ends August 31. As of August 31, 2002 they reported 161,486 members. This is a 49.5% drop in membership while the total population of Canada grew 55.0% from 20,015 thousands at the end of 1966 to 31,021 thousands at the end of 2001, the last year for which data are available. I don't know about the age profiles of the Canadian population for these different years, but clearly Scouts Canada has not kept up. I don't know how gradual that deline was over 35 years, or if the drop was more recent.

However, in the year ended August 31, 2003, membership dropped another 17.5% in just one year from 161,486 to 133,174. Revenues of the national organization dropped 11.2% during the same period. Whatever the causes, if I were in a national leadership position in Scouts Canada, I would be alarmed. No organization can go on that way and survive.

Shape? What is shape?

One could never prove "scientifically" why membership dropped without tracking down a lot of people who dropped out or considered joining and did not do so. Nevertheless, the shift if membership policy was followed by a dramtic drop in membership for no other apparent reason. Growth in other youth programs may be both cause and effect. BSA also competes with other youth programs, but holds its own nevertheless.

I too would hope to hear from some Canadian posters on this forum. Ziegler's politics are obvious. That does not mean that he is incorrect in his conclusions. He makes a number of factual assertions about the state of the organization that somebody might be able to shed some more light on.

I came across this interesting piece. I was vaguely aware that scouting in Canada admitted homosexuals. Does anyone have any more information about what is going on in Canada?

________________________

August 13, 2004

The Death of Canadian Scouting

Hans Zeiger

Big Canadian real estate is on the market. A rather sizable chunk of Lord Robert Baden-Powells Empire is available for investors, homebuilders, fishing resort prospectors, or blacktop barons. Scouts Canada is pounding in for sale signs at the entrances of a number of Scout camps across the country, including at least twenty camps in Ontario. But dont worry. No Boy Scouts will mourn the loss of their summer camps, for the Boy Scouts of Canada no longer exist.

Thinking they could become more inclusive, the Boy Scouts of Canada Board of Governors decided in November 1998 to admit females, atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals into troops. Despite that established troops were not even allowed to remain all-male groups, Scouts Canada approved the establishment of the worlds first all-homosexual troop in 1999. The troop marches in homosexual pride parades and loudly symbolizes what Scouts Canada calls its commitment to diversity.

Scouts Canadas new non-discrimination code reads: Scouting is a worldwide, multicultural movement. We welcome people to membership regardless of gender, race, culture, religious belief, sexual orientation or economic circumstances. Youth members are strongly influenced by the behaviour of adults. We need to be sensitive to the traditions and beliefs of all people and to avoid words or actions which "put down" anybody.

And so, in its attempt to include everybody and everything, Scouts Canada is effectively dead.

Budgets have run dry. Troop halls and old campsites sit vacant. Professional staff salaries are severed. Membership is mostly decimated. In the past, membership roles consistently exceeded 300,000. Around the peak in 1965, there were 320,000 Boy Scouts. Today, despite a one third population increase in Canada over four decades and a doubling of the demographic possibilities (with female members), Scouts Canada has dwindled to a puny 130,000 and it is rapidly declining.

Open to all, there is a certain liability that accompanies the mixture of sexes and sexual preferences at Scout Camp. It is no coincidence that Scouts Canadas costs for liability insurance against sexual molestation claims increased dramatically by 2002 when, lacking adequate finances, Scouts Canada canceled its sex abuse insurance, and with it many high risk activities. Without the insurance, a single pedophile could potentially annihilate Scouts Canada forever.

Esprit de corps has evaporated. Last year, wearing a uniform at official Scout events became optional. Scoutmasters were deprived of the authority to demand the wearing of uniforms. Its time to stop bickering about the clothes we wear, said Ms. Bonita Brick, chair of the National Scouts Youth Committee that handed down the uniform decision. Accept the reality of change.

It seems that change is not so attractive to the traditional core of Scouts Canada. It is disheartening. Everything seems to be going down and down, laments veteran Scouter Bill Stauttener who manages Union Marsh Scout Camp which is set to go on the chopping block.

Eastern Ontarios Camp Apple Hill is expected to sell for just $30,000, a bargain considering that it is 300 acres. It's very heartbreaking and very distressing, says three-decade Scout leader Pat Tugwood.

It may be a sad affair for some whove been around Canadian Scouting for a while, but I say good riddance to Scouts Canada. They ceased to serve any useful purpose the day they became all-inclusive, all-sensitive, and all-tolerant. The Scout Oath and Scout Law are obliterated in the land of the red maple leaf north of Parallel 49.

It is doubtful that this organization can be resuscitated. Political correctness, having infected whole institutions, does not easily reverse. But we Americans might well consider this malady and contain it at the border.

In meeting the challenges of a multi-faith society which is increasingly gay-positive, the [boy Scouts of America] might follow the lead of Scouts Canada, urges a writer at ReligiousTolerance.org. And thus the far Left attacks the Boy Scouts of America, relentlessly for the past two decades.

There are prices to be paid by the BSA for standing on traditional moral values, but none so severe as this eulogy of Scouts Canada. In America, United Way funding may be cut, cities and school districts may abandon the Scouts, courts may order the Scouts to leave public property. But so long as the Scout Oath and Law remain intact, the Boy Scouts of America can survive.

Goodbye, Scouts Canada. Political correctness is sure grand, eh?

###

Hans Zeiger is a columnist, political activist, and student leader from Puyallup, Washington. At age 18, Hans is an Eagle Scout and president of the Scout Honor Coalition. He is the past chairman of Washington Young Americans for Freedom and a former research analyst at the Evergreen Freedom Foundation. He is a freshman at Hillsdale College in Michigan.

The idea of encouraging people to buy patches as investments is on the same level as promoting beanie babies as investments.

One person with authority who is not mentioned is the committee chair. Where is your CC on this? The whole subject is one best taken up formally by the unit committee. If a unit committee is functioning properly it can lay down the law about this sort of thing.

It sounds like the adults involved in this clique want to have the benefits of scouting without sharing the burdens. If they are going to claim advancement benefits for these activities then the activities need to come from the boys and open to all interested and capable members of the unit. Maybe they should be invited to form their own unit.

Our troop does not own a trailer, but I believe drivers should be compensated for at least fuel for distances over an hour's drive. Throwing in a few extra bucks for pulling trailers would also be appropriate.

Big Dog does raise a valid point. Suppose that a liability case is being litigated against BSA somewhere and the case is assigned to an out of the closet homosexual judge. Wouldn't BSA be entitled to challenge that judge? Would BSA be entitled to inquire as to the sexual orientation of the judge and/or jurors if nobody was out of the closet?

Laurie,

You are absolutely correct. Every judge, just like every juror and every prosecutor, brings a great deal of intellectual baggage if you will, into every case. Most of the time it is sufficient to expect judges in particular to recognize their biases and set them aside in their decision making. In extreme situations we want to exclude some people, like known members of the Klu Klux Klan. But, on a daily basis, the sytem relies on the good faith and ethical sensibility of judges to deal with their biases and even financial interests.

I actually agree with NJCubScouter on this one. Judges already face a variety of restrictions. It is a question of where and how to draw the line. It is also a question of who draws the line. The ABA has very low credibility with me on a variety of issues.

There is also a constitutional issue for federal judges, and this could relate to abortion as well as policies towards homosexuality. Article VI of the constitution provides in part, "; but no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

This would suggest that if any attorney who belonged to a religiion that considered homosexuality to be a sinful life style, could not be refused an appointment to a judicial position or removed on this grounds.

What about scouters, all of whom subscribe to a statement of religious principle? Would Article VI apply here as well?

You lawyers out there ...let's hear from you.

A panda walks into a tavern and orders a sandwich. After eating the sandwich the panda pulls out a revolver and shoots out the clock over the bar, and gets up to exit the establishment. The bouncer stops the panda at the door and asks what is going on. Without say a word the panda hands the bouncer a photo copy of an encyclopedia entry:

Panda: Eats shoots and leaves.

Where is BW when you need him?

In an earlier thread this question came up and BW's response surprised me. While BSA clearly does not want scouts selling raffle tickets to the general public, BW said that having this kind of raffle within the unit is OK.

I am not quoting BW exactly here, but if he picks up on this, I would be interested in hearing from him.

There should be available in the BSA catalog patrol flags to go with the standard patrol emblems. I have rarely seen these used. Most patrols get creative.

As far as I know, the answer would be yes. However, you should check with your council office. They should be able and willing to tell you what is covered and what is not.

It is my understanding the the chartered organization can remove a member, youth or adult, from its unit, but only the national or local council can remove a member from scouting altogether. If a CO removes a member from its unit, that person is still a registered member until his or her membership expires.

I have not personally heard of any arbitrary treatment of volunteers, but I am sure that it happens from time to time. It is important for BSA to maintain some notion of fairness and due process, although the idea of hearings, witnesses, etc., is not required and not advisable. People do deserve to be told why actions are being taken.

Given the rarity of outright removal, I would think that some kind of automatic review should be built into the process, probably at the regional level. As far as I know there is no review at higher levels unless someone appeals an action.

Mrs. Smith,

As you may have gathered by now, there are no consistent policies or practices regarding tour permits. When I first learned about this procedure in a different council we filed them for everything, including camporees. Our council here is now trying to discourage tour permits for one day events. I don't have G2SS in front of me, but here is my take on this.

When permits are required:

Overnight camping, water based activities, any activity requiring special training and/or safety procedures, activities where the unit is organizing and providing transportation to and from the event.

Local day hikes or bike rides from local trail heads are questionable. I would prefer to have a permit in my possession, but if my council is going to stop issuing permits for these kinds of events, I guess I won't have one.

When permits are clearly not required:

Routine troop meetings, local service projects, courts of honor, patrol planned and executed activities where no adult is present or required to be present, council sponsored events.

Anybody is free to agree or disagree. I would be interested in hearing more of other people's experiences with this.

Just to be sure I understand what you are talking about, when we use the phrase "summer camp" here in the states we usually are referring to a resident camp where you go and stay there for a week.

Extended outings are another matter. Here on the left coast of the US we are fortunate in having ready access to the Sierras with numerous opportunities for extended backpacking expeditions. Many troops do that as a matter of routine. Popular destinations are the backcountry of Yosemite National Park and Mount Whitney, the highest peak in the lower 48.

This has certainly gone far afield from the original question. Proud Eagle's essay is correct. The point is that the council has a separate corporate and legal existence that enables it to do certain things that scout units cannot do.

Having never been a COR, I would expect proxy forms to be made available to them, just as with any other corporation.

It is correct that donated labor cannot be treated as a deductible donation. Can you imagine how much we would all be able to deduct if this were legal?

Your painter cannot deduct for the value of his donated services. You will not be taxed on imputed income resulting from his services. Relax.

The idea that any donation to any old group is tax deductible is a common misconception. I let people's consciences be their guide. I am not an attorney nor an expert in this area of tax law so I am not going to advise anybody one way or another.

It should be noted however, that as an individual volunteer you can treat your uniform expenses and unreimbursed bona fide expenses as donations. For example, if you go to Kinko's to have some stuff photocopied and you are not reimbursed, this is a donation. Create a record and save your receipt.

I tried to post to this earlier today, but got timed out.

I defer to BP's greater expertise regarding the rules, but there are such organizations in place.

BP alludes to an important fact. There are many non profits that are not 501©3 organizations. In my mind the distinction is the ability of donors to treat their contributions as qualified deductible donations from their own taxes.

For example, the homeowners' association of which I am currently president, is a non profit organization, but it does not solicit or accept donations that people can write off against their own taxes. We pay taxes on the interest we earn on our reserve accounts, but our dues not taxable income to the association as long as it complies with a variety of other rules I do not pretend to understand.

It seems to me that a properly structured and operated foundation should be able to maintain sufficient independence from the management of the troop and chartered organization to meet the requirements. Too many people are already doing this around the country.

I hadn't thought of Whale Rider as a film for just girls. Everybody should be able to enjoy this film and get something out of it.