eisely

Coming back on topic... It has always been my understanding that units cannot unilaterally recharter in a different council. Rechartering in a different district within the same council might be much easier, but when one crosses council boundaries the powers that be on high must get involved and these are rarely approved. Am I not correct?

This tale raises important and interesting questions. If the article is accurate, there certainly was a great deal of smoke available to detect this fire. One wonders what people were thinking of. This makes Michael Jackson look good.

Our troop does not use individual accounts. I agree that the boys benefit from such a concept, but our adults are not willing to take that on just yet. Far easier to write checks as required. The question of using scout accounts resulting from fund raising for personal benefit is a good one and one that I had not thought of. The question logically would apply to scout bucks spent for camp and outings in addition to gear. In general I would expect that monies raised by an ostensible non profit organization in effect rebated back to the boys probably compromises the non profit status of the organization. Personally I don't think that the IRS is going to come after some boy scout troop or individual scout on this. I wouldn't worry about.

I too enjoy playing cards, but I do not enjoy playing for money or anything valuable. The last time I played for money was when my then boss insisted on a long plane trip. We played gin rummy for hours and I took him for about $37.00 at a penny a point. He was a terrible gin player. But I digress... Card games can teach valuable skills of concentration and knowledge of probabilities. Further, there are dead times during many outings, and having a deck of cards along can help fill the time in a harmless manner, where everybody is in view and you know what everybody is doing. There are some religious denominations that object to card games. That is fine, but I would not let that interfere with the enjoyment of the group. Any youth or adult who does not want to play for any reason does not have to join in.

nldscout, I think the first reference to the idea of "killing all the lawyers" comes up in one of Shakespeare's plays. Which reminds me of another lawyer joke (with apologies to NJCubScouter). What is 10,000 dead lawyers on the bottom of the sea? A good start.

As painful as it is to admit it, lawyers are occasionally necessary. Nevertheless, I can't get enough lawyer bashing.

Not renting to lawyers --- now that is what I call justice. I hear that some doctors refuse to take lawyers as patients too. Maybe the automobile manufacturers should refuse to sell cars to lawyers.

Thanx for the input. The responses are consistent with my own views before I initiated the thread. I just wanted to find out if anybody had any different experiences or knowledge to share. What kind of day is it?

I would be interested in finding out others' views on when a tour permit must be resubmitted to council for approval. Consider a hypothetical: You are the "tour leader" on an approved permit. Suddenly there are a number of changes to the plans. Under what circumstances must you get a new permit? Are there any national guidelines on this subject? The following non exhaustive list of possible changes are things I would like others' views on. A change in date: A change in destination: A change in adult leadership named on the permit: An increase in the number of participants: A change in the drivers and vehicles to be used: Your thoughts?

One of the issues in the Berkeley case is that the city successfully reneged on a contract. When the city built the breakwater for its marina many years ago, the boy scouts provided all the rip rap free from a property owned by the scouts. The only thing the city had to provide in return was free use of the marina by the boy scouts in perpetuity. I believe that the quarry is now located on the property now known as Camp Herms in the hills above El Cerrito, a town a few miles North of the Marina site. The trial judge simply ruled that this contractual requirement was irrelevant. One of the most annoying aspects of the San Diego case was the enrichment of the ACLU almost to the tune of $1,000,000 by the taxpayers of the city as part of the settlement. This suggests that the ACLU is not a disinterested party to these disputes.

I found that partial quote from Lawrence Tribe to be very strange. Tribe is pretty far to the left and I would not consider him an expert on BSA. I don't know the context in which the quote was found.

I post this, not in the spirit of furthering debate, but in the spirit of simply providing information. Pacific Legal Foundation is a non profit law firm that takes up conservative causes in litigation. _____________________ The anti-Scouting witch hunt ACLU targets organization for not accepting political-correctness demands By HAROLD JOHNSON Attorney with Pacific Legal Foundation In 2000, the Orange County Board of Supervisors gave the Boy Scouts of America a 30-year extension on their lease at the popular Sea Base recreation camp in Newport Beach. The Scouts maintain the camp and keep it open for the general public on an equal-access basis. So the supes' decision was financially wise as well as public-spirited. But the American Civil Liberties Union wasn't pleased because it can't tolerate Scout traditions, particularly the pledge of duty to God and the belief that being "morally straight" includes foreswearing sex outside of marriage (including homosexual activity). An ACLU lawyer made noises about suing, but the Scouts agreed to fund the county's defense if that happens. "The county gets sued every day by somebody," an unruffled Supervisor Todd Spitzer responded. Anti-Scout pressure groups don't always find public officials so hard to roll. While Orange County remains Scout-friendly territory, elsewhere in California the Scouts have been punished for not being politically correct. Two lawsuits highlight Scouting's struggle. Evans vs. Berkeley, currently before the state Supreme Court, challenges Berkeley's second-class treatment of the Sea Scouts, a Boy Scout affiliate that focuses on sailing. Berkeley excludes the local Sea Scouts from a program offering nonprofits free use of the city's marina. As a result, the Sea Scouts have had to cut back activities. Berkeley calls the larger Boy Scouts organization "discriminatory" - a disparaging term that shows the city's constitutional blind spot. Freedom of association must not be disparaged as "discrimination." The Constitution permits people to organize around shared values, and it protects private organizations from being punished solely because government officials don't like their views. First Amendment freedoms are also at stake in the San Diego case of Boy Scouts vs. Barnes-Wallace, now before the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The Scouts are appealing the startling decision by U.S. District Judge Napoleon A. Jones Jr. to void the Scouts' longtime leases at San Diego's Balboa Park and on Fiesta Island in Mission Bay Park. Siding with the ACLU, Judge Jones labeled Scouting a "religious" organization. This caused a lot of head-scratching because the Scouts don't have a theology, just a broad acknowledgment of a common-denominator deity. In any case, San Diego hasn't been "endorsing" religion by leasing land to the Scouts. Not when the city also leases to many other nonprofits with missions across the spectrum - from the Girl Scouts to a Jewish Community Center; from the Boys and Girls Clubs to the YMCA. Taken as a whole, these leases endorse pluralism and diversity, not religion. San Diego officials originally stood by the Scouts, but last year, in a move that drew widespread criticism, they bailed out of the litigation and paid the ACLU $950,000 for "attorneys fees" and "court costs." So the ACLU's battle against the Scout leases is now fueled by a hefty taxpayer subsidy. Judge Jones topped off his ruling with gratuitous insults. He denounced Scouting as "anti-homosexual," "anti-atheist," and "at odds with values requiring tolerance and inclusion in the public realm." These abusive terms don't square with the Scout Law and Scout Oath, which pledge respect for all people. Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe has summarized the beliefs on which Scouting's right-to-association claims rest, and they are about positive aspirations, not hate or hostility toward anyone: "The Boy Scouts ... are dedicated to teaching that the good life is one that ... practices sexual abstinence until marriage, respects and protects the young woman ... and looks forward to the ultimate satisfaction of fathering children." One doesn't have to concur with the Scout creed to applaud Scouting for not abandoning it under pressure. It's the Scouts - not Judge Jones or Berkeley bureaucrats - who are standing for "tolerance and inclusion in the public realm." They're fighting for the right of all private organizations to follow their own convictions without fear of censorship, intimidation or reprisal by the state - or the ACLU.

Does anybody know any more details about this case? _______________________________ Appeals court rejects religious discrimination suit against Boy Scouts LANSING, Mich. An appeals has ruled against an atheist who sued after a Michigan school let the Boy Scouts recruit during school hours. The state Court of Appeals says the Boy Scouts and the Mount Pleasant Public Schools did NOT violate the constitutional ban on religious discrimination. John Scalise (ska-LEEZ') wanted to become a troop leader when his son joined the Cub Scouts. But the father refused to sign the Scouts' declaration of religious principle. The Boy Scouts then revoked the father's membership, and he pulled his son from the group. Scalise sued the school district, saying the Scouts are a religious group that can't pass out flyers during in a public school. But the appeals court denied his arguments.

Well said OGE. It is unfortunate that some are excluded, but the BSA statement of religious principle has nothing to do with the First Amendment. If any applicant or member cannot subscribe to that minimalist statement then they will have to find another organization. Try "Spiral Scouts".

I thought those were called Freedom Fries these days.

Go to this link http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050117/481/sjo10101171926

Anybody hear of this one? ____________________________________- Boy Scouts of America Launches Soccer and Scouting Program; Initiative Sends Positive Message to Hispanic American/Latino Communities PR Newswire IRVING, Texas, Jan. 14 /PRNewswire/ -- The Boy Scouts of America announces Soccer and Scouting, a program designed to combine the positive youth activities of Cub Scouts with organized soccer. The program is designed for youth traditionally underserved by Scouting, and in particular, Hispanic American/Latino youth, ages 7 to 10, involved in Cub Scouting. The BSA partnered with Major League Soccer Camps to develop the program, which is divided into four 12-week seasons. The program incorporates both indoor and outdoor soccer components for year-round participation. The BSA developed training and materials on effective soccer coaching, as well as delivering the Cub Scouting program, which includes activities such as core value reflections, safety drills, crafts, and nutrition education. Soccer and Scouting works on the same achievement and requirement paths as other Cub Scout programs, with youth earning the Tiger Cub, Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos badges, to name a few. "Soccer is such an integral part of the Hispanic American/Latino culture," said Jose Nino, former president, United States Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and Soccer and Scouting program co-chair. "By combining soccer and Scouting, youth and families no longer have to choose between two valuable activities whose impact on their young lives is immeasurable." Parents are also involved in the Soccer and Scouting program as volunteers and soccer coaches. The program provides Family-Time posters for soccer Cub Scouts and their parents to use as they work together at home on Cub Scouting advancement and soccer skills. The Soccer and Scouting literature comes in both English and Spanish versions. In addition, most of the practices and games in the Soccer and Scouting program are family events. The program provides an opportunity for everyone in the family to learn a better way of life through Scouting. "Soccer and Scouting allows the BSA to reach this underserved portion of the community," said Roy Williams, Chief Scout Executive, BSA. "The program will help youth learn soccer skills and maintain a continual level of physical activity, as well as learn the lifelong values taught in the Scouting program." The Boy Scouts pilot tested the program in Denver in June 2004, and participation levels proved to be significant with 250 Cub Scouts from 14 elementary schools. Additionally, the local council realized a 75 percent increase in Hispanic American/Latino attendance at the recruiting meeting in August. Soccer and Scouting currently is being rolled out nationwide with programs in over 65 local Boy Scout councils. The program provides soccer and Cub Scout uniforms through Sporting Essentials, a company licensed by the BSA Supply Division. Serving nearly 5 million young people between 7 and 20 years of age with 309 councils throughout the United States and its territories, the Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. Boy Scouts of America

Knock off the bickering and pass the tartar sauce please.

BSA seems very slow to adapt. Even if it is all that it is cracked up to be, don't expect to see it anytime soon, if ever, on any BSA official stuff.

NWScouter, In your last post you state that in order for a non parent to go on an outing, they must be registered. While registration is certainly a good idea, I don't see that as a requirement anywhere. Is that a local or unit policy by chance?

Long time participants in this forum will recall that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) wrote a letter to BSA a few years back urging that BSA abolish the Fishing merit badge. It looks like they used their word processor to send the same letter to a prominent former president... __________________________ Jimmy Carter Urged to Give Fish a Chance ATLANTA (Reuters) - A prominent U.S.-based animal rights group urged former President Jimmy Carter on Monday to give up fishing on the grounds that the activity was inconsistent the Nobel peace laureate's humanitarian efforts. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals made its appeal in a letter faxed to Carter's non-profit Carter Center on Monday. The group said the letter was prompted by Carter's recent appearance on The Tonight Show With Jay Leno. Carter, who served as president from 1977 to 1981 and won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002, told Leno of the pain he suffered when he accidentally hooked himself through the face on a fishing trip. "We're asking President Carter to think this through and to grant fish peace by leaving them in the water where they belong," PETA President Ingrid Newkirk said in a press release. A Carter Center spokesman said the center does not comment on Carter's private correspondence. _______________________________

Our newsletter is emailed to every parent and boy in troop who wants one and can provide an email address. In this part of the country everybody in on line and we started emailing it about three years ago. Every household has at least one address on the mailing list. The newsletter has articles about recent events and information about upcoming events and training opportunities. We don't have any regular features.

Just as with the youth, it is important that information on medications and other conditions be in the hands of responsible adults in case anything bad happens. What if you are a diabetic and unconscious due to an accident and nobody is aware of this? There are some things about me I want the other adults to know.

There is a publication called the "Troop Committee Guidebook" that answers most of these questions. I don't know, but I presume there is a similar publication for Cub Scouts.

Why is Santa Claus always smiling? Because he knows where all the really naughty girls live.