eisely

Returning to the original subject of this thread....the thought occurs to me that Craig might have able to raise another defense - restless leg syndrome.

Use it to purchase equipment or reduce the costs for the coming year in some way. There is nothing wrong with having a surplus per se.

Merlyn actually provides some useful information - namely that state laws differ. In this regard there is a new initiative that may make it onto the ballot here in California regarding same sex marriage. In that initiative gender is defined on chromosomes, not appearance or surgical change or anything else.

Coming to the question if a known transgendered person wanted to volunteer, I do not see any harm in that. One of the operative words here is "known" since I doubt that any volunteer presenting themselves as either a male or a female would say, "Oh by the way, last year I was something different." I don''t know how this would be picked up as a discrepancy or anomaly (sp?) in a criminal background check. Since these are done at BSA national, I have no idea how they would deal with something like that.

One more thought - this sort of concern is one of the reasons for the "buddy system." Make sure your scouts buddy up and stay buddied up.

I have to count myself among the skeptical regarding transgendering. I have personally never dealt with anyone of any age whom I knew to be transgendered - which gets me to my first point.

If a boy came to join up who had been transgendered I would have no difficulty signing him up. Legally he is a boy and wants to be a boy. Why would I even want to know or care? If there were any ongoing associated medical issues that I would need to know about, then I would want to know, but otherwise, "Don''t ask - don''t tell."

Having a boy in a unit who is planning to become a girl is another matter. I would think that such a youth would be happier not being part of a male activity. I would rather not have to deal with explaining what is going on to the other boys in the unit. Such decisions are difficult for the families involved and I would think they would want to maximize their privacy. I don''t know what I would do if some parent came up to me and informed me that in twelve months little Johnny is going to be Jane. Suggestions anyone?

Responding to GaHillBllly:

If the place is as well known as you say for the "tearoom trade", chances are the police are already aware of it. If you talked to the police ahead of time they might even schedule a visit to the park at the same time. That should help alleviate any worries since those folks would probably scatter and reschedule their trysts. You and your scouts have as much right to use the public facility as anybody else. Clearly no one wants to start a confrontation, but I see no reason why you should not go ahead with your plan.

The two times I went to Philmont we arrived a day early by design and simply paid a small extra per diem by prior arrangement. On one of those expeditions we encountered a group that had been delayed a full 24 hours by Amtrak and Philmont accommodated them. I don''t know if they got the original trek itinerary they requested, but they certainly were not turned away.

Since I raised the tour permit subject on the other thread, I guess I should comment here.

My impression of the whole tour permit process is that it is often haphzardly administered at both the unit and council level. Focusing on the council for a moment, I note that our council is trying to discourage tour permits being filed for many mundane activities, but giving more serious scrutiny to those that are submitted. For one thing, they check their electronic files to see if the named adults have gone through Youth Protection Training.

For many experienced responsible adult leaders, tour permits are something of a nuisance. That does not diminish the potential value of the tour permit concept as a risk management tool, particularly where new leaders are involved. Many of the most serious incidents one hears about involve situations where safey policies were not being followed, often through ignorance. One is left to wonder what the adults involved were thinking of, or if they were thinking at all. My view of the tour permit process is that it raises the level of awareness of safety policies with adult leaders who might otherwise err with serious consequences for all concerned.

The tour permit process also provides councils with a possible means of passing liability to irresponsible adults. It would very easy to lie about most of the information that a tour permit requires. It also is very easy to take boys on an outing without a tour permit if nobody is watching. Having a sensible and enforced tour permit policy in place at least provides the organization an ability to check on and enforce its own rules. It also spreads responsibility at the unit level since someone on the unit committee has to approve the permit too.

Simply acting in good faith is likely not a viable defense against liability when both training and procedures are available to and required of volunteers. I don''t know if Joe was fully compliant with his local council policy or not. All I am trying to say is that any volunteer needs to be aware of and comply with safety standards, which includes tour permits. We all agree that tour permits are not required by local councils for everything a unit may do. The difficulty that I see recurring is that tour permit policies vary widely across councils. I don''t think anybody who is not in Joe''s council can assert that Joe''s council would not have required a tour permit, or can say how Joe''s council would respond to any particular incident where a tour permit was not obtained and something bad happened.

The direct answer to your question is a qualified, "Yes you can." Having trained life guards on hand is recommended, but not in general required.

Regarding boating and canoeing activities per se, if you have any non swimmer participating then you must have a qualified lifeguard in the boat with that person. The definition of swimmer is someone who has passed the First Class rank requirement for swimming. All boys who may be less than First Class but have the Swimming merit badge would exceed this requirement.

GernBlansten,

I concur with your interpretation. That provision in the constitution does not grant immunity from prosecution, merely immunity from arrest while traveling to and from sessions of the Congress.

The exposure Beavah, is to damages sought by a boy and his parents. As a general rule all adults participating in a BSA sanctioned activity enjoy the protection of the insurance carried by the local council. This does not protect one from getting sued, but guarantees that the council will defend you and pay any damages up to its limits. All this depends upon compliance with BSA safety rules. If you are out of compliance, you may be naked.

It is certainly correct that many councils appear to take a relaxed attitude towards the need for tour permits. My larger point is that engaging in any unplanned activity that may require a tour permit runs liability risks for the adults involved if something bad happens. You may find yourself without the benefit of council liability coverage.

I have dealt with different outfitters and renters of canoes over the years. Some of them are very good, and some are very sloppy. They all require their customers to sign waivers of liability. Suppose you lost a boy because a PFD wasn''t properly fitted or the fabric was so rotten it failed? It may have been the outfitter''s equipment but they will do everything they can to pass liability to you, or if unsuccessful, collect from you.

All I am saying is, before you think about an unplanned activity, make sure you understand the BSA safety requirements, including the need for a tour permit.

I am not learned in these matters, but I will venture a thought. Ethical, moral, and even legal dilemmas arise when there is a conflict of duties. This idea is as old as recorded history. Society does give a great many rules and priorities, but these are designed to deal with situations where there are real consequences.

The question of romantic involvment between teacher and student is easily resolved on at least two grounds. First, a teacher automatically creates a conflict in his or her duties to the lover and the responsibilities of a teacher, particularly when it comes to handing out grades. Second, there is the difference power between the teacher and the student. The teacher is automatically in a position to exploit the student. That is why society comes down hard on teachers and college professors who do engage in these kinds of relationships.

The question of a need for a tour permit is a very murky area. What I advised Joe to do with regard to the future is look into the requirements. I did not explicitly tell him to talk to his local council, although that is something he clearly should do. This further assumes that there are people in his council office capable of giving him a good answer, which in itself may be a heroic assumption. My basic point is, before you do anything, planned or unplanned, you need to understand the safety requirements, including whether or not a tour permit is really needed. I would hate to see someone like Joe hung out to dry when taking a few simple steps to inform oneself and act accordingly would avoid that.

I don''t have any problem with rewarding boys for service such as that described. I don''t have a problem with how you dealt with the angry mom. However, I infer that you did not have a tour permit. IMHO, canoeing and all water based activities require tour permits. This particular event is, so to speak, water under the bridge, but you need to look into this. If you anticipate doing something like this, get the tour permit. If you end up not going, no harm no foul. Something bad happens during an activity where a tour permit is required and you don''t have one, you could find yourself all alone.

Since Jefferson is from Louisiana, there is a great quote from the original Huey Long pertinent to the question of corruption, "Louisianans do not tolerate political corruption, they insist upon it."

The application of the constitution to the Craig case had also occurred to me, but I suppose the burden is on Craig to invoke it. In the case of Jefferson, the issue was raised about the FBI raid on his offices in DC, not the seizure of the money he accepted. As I recall the resolution of the search question, the government agreed to return most files and the use of any files seized from the offices will be reviewed by the court.

I do not have a great deal of sympathy for Craig. He was foolish to cop a plea to a lesser offense if he really felt that he had done nothing wrong. I will be surprised if the court goes along with vacating his plea.

The Republican Senate leadership has dealt with him harshly over a relatively minor manner. However, the media and the other party successfully hold the Republicans to higher standards of behavior. Maybe the choice over continuing in office should be left to Craig and the citizens of Idaho, but stripping Craig of his leadership positions was not unfair and totally within the authority of the party leadership in the Senate.

I don't know how big a problem this behavior is at the Minneapolis Airport, but I will leave it to the local authorities to decide how to allocate their resources.

This is a pathetic situation. What is more pathetic is how the media virtually ignored the scandal over the Democratic fund raiser Norman Hsu and the arrest of the two Florida students on a terrorist mission to provide endless coverage of the Craig situation.

In the meantime guys - keep your happy feet under control or risk arrest.

OGE,

One of the earlier posts mentioned the "National Zoo" unless you are referring to the Congress.

Another thought would be to visit the Holocaust Museum right off of the mall. This would not be for fun but for teaching.

The committed volunteers of our council offer a variety of training opportunities under the rubric of "High Adventure Team" training. None of this training is required for anything, but the adult volunteers coming up as new scouters participate heavily in this training and really appreciate it. Check out this link.

http://www.bsa-mdsc.org/hat.php

We are fortunate in that we have funding through employer support programs and we have a dedicated laptop on which we have been running TroopMaster. There are competing products available that are probably superior, but we decided that it was too much work to do the manual conversions required. As others have noted, GIGO. Like any system it requires a committed volunteer just to maintain the data.

I also tell parents to latch onto all the cards their boys get, including their copies of blue cards, and put them into a binder, using the plastic sheets that baseball card collectors use. We have found the council records to often be incomplete when a boy comes up for Eagle, so the more back up you have, the better. I even have a binder for my own cards.

One of the best kept secrets in DC is the summer evening parades at the Marine Barracks. Tickets are free, but you have to know someone. Your congressional representative could probably help you. This is real spit and polish close order drill that your boys will love. I don't know if they do these at other times of the year than the summer. If you do a google search you can probably find out much more.

Every adult participating in an activity has some level of protection through liability policies carried by the local council. If you have liability coverage as a homeowner or renter, chances are that policy also insures your participation in volunteer activities. However, having coverage and not getting sued are not the same thing. At the risk of repeating some of the earlier posts here are some common sense advice for avoiding incidents and protecting yourself from liability when bad things happen:

1. Be aware of and adhere to all safety policies in Guide to Safe Scouting that relate to the activities in which you are participating.

2. Be aware of and adhere to your local council policies regarding tour permits.

3. Obtain training for the position you are performing or the specific activity in question, including Youth Protection and Wilderness First Aid. Make sure that the other adults participating with you have at least minimal training for the activity. Since Youth Protection can be done online that should not be a particularly burdensome request.

4. Be aware of and adhere to local council policies regarding reporting of incidents. We also have our trek leaders submit reports of outings to our committee for a variety of purposes, including rank advancement. These reports are to include discussion and disposition of significant injuries or accidents. If there were no incidents, the reports are to also note that fact.

5. Have your unit participate in locally sponsored accident insurance programs if available. These are inexpensive and usually are offered at re chartering time. These are essentially no fault coverages that provide supplemental coverage to ordinary health insurance. Having this coverage availabe can help alleviate distress in a family when something bad happens.

Knowing the rules through training, and then following the rules are the best safeguards.

Finally, we have never to my recollection have any serious problems with youth members. All our injuries have been to adults!!!

There have been and still are numerous local honor societies within scouting. Check out this link.

http://usscouts.org/honorsociety/honorscout.asp