eisely

I have always told people to print in bold letters "dual registration" at the top of the form. There is no box to check.

Ditto.

There is another type of injury that I did not see mentioned above and that is frost bite. When I was in the 4th armored division in Germany in the 60's frost bite was a common facial injury just from riding in open vehicles in cold weather. As some other poster noted, a sustained wind is part of the story if wind chill is supposed to matter. Driving in an open vehicle creates that situation.

I concur with all the other posters that canceling was the correct decision if you did not believe your Webelos were ready.

I don't know what this council does now, but when we lived in Ventura County Council in Southern California, they used to open up the summer camp for weekend snow camping, for Webelos and regular scouts. This was a pretty closely controlled situation that allowed leaders to monitor their youth and send them up to the dining hall to warm up and dry out if necessary. The camp was about 5,000 feet above sea level. Mostly it was "mud camp" more than snow camp.

The points made by kb6jra are all well taken. It seems to me that the first step is to assess where your son is with the troop. If he is happy then you probably want to stay and make it work.

I find it hard to believe that the troop has no outdoor programs. This is the main thing the boys sign up for.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a structured committee and such a committee is likely to be more effective. By all means talk to the SM and see how he or she feels about the changes. If the SM is not on board, then maybe it is time to change positions or troops.

Some old hands I deeply respect have advised against using scotch guard on camping equipment as a water proofing agent. They say it makes things worse rather than better. Certainly the original scotch guard products were sold as a fabric treatment to reduce staining and were not sold as water proofing agents.

Yet when I now google "scotch guard" it now appears that 3M is making water proofing products under the scotch guard brand specifically for camping products, clothing, tents, etc. Does anybody have any experience using this stuff? Any other insights to share?

I am not aware of any hard and fast rules regarding these kinds of situations. Several years ago an adult volunteer in our council was indicted on some charge and the council disappeared him from the ranks of volunteers. The charges were resolved favorably and he subsequently re appeared a few years later. If the individual is not a threat to the youth or the unit, he should not be punished twice for something like this. Having said that, the adult volunteer himself might be better off taking a few months "leave of absence" without formally withdrawing from membership until this thing is cleared up.

I am shocked - shocked to learn that some people think that scouting is a Christian organization. Here I thought we were a bunch of para military fascists.

And a happy winter solstice to all of you too.

The best single sources of information on car camping in California are two maps published by AAA. These maps not only list county parks, state parks, national parks, and other federally operated facilities, they give a lot of detail in an easy to understand tabular format and show you where they are located. They even cover some private camp grounds.

There are also numerous books. I am writing from work right now so I don't remember all the titles. You might go on Amazon and just search for books about camping in California and see what they come up with.

Getting information on backpacking sites is somewhat more difficult. I am not aware of a single source of such information for California. Usually I rely on maps for the area where I am going to see if there are developed back country sites I should be using.

If you are looking at National Forest Service controlled land, you should know that the forest service publishes its own series of maps. These have a lot of useful detail about what is in the national forests.

There was a similar inquiry on this forum a few years ago. When I became re involved with scouts as an adult leader, I too heard that fixed blade knives were forbidden, but that is not correct. I can think of two activities where a fixed blade knife is essential: SCUBA diving and white water kayaking.

Whenever I have taught adults knife safety as part of Outdoor Leader Skills we cover this issue. I recommend a folding knife or Leatherman type multi purpose tool, but tell them that a fixed blade knife is permitted.

The points made earlier about knives at school are well taken. Several years ago a scout in our troop used his school day pack for a scout outing. He left his pocket knife in the pack when he used the pack later for school purposes and was suspended. Be sure to remind your scouts and parents about this if they use the same pack for school and BSA outings.

We have no consistent methodology. For most outings beyond a few miles, we reimburse drivers a flat amount regardless of vehicle capacity. On some longer outings I have been responsible for I collect the gas receipts and reimburse for actual expenses.

If I am not mistaken the mileage rate for use of a POV for charitable purposes is much much less than for business purposes. Those who are recording and deducting mileage need to make sure they are using the correct rate.

As with one of other responses, I have a binder for my own stuff with the baseball card holders. This is also useful for things like CPR cards.

From reading these posts, I guess I can claim seniority in age, if not scouting achievements. Started as a bobcat in 1950 in Jefferson City, Mo. Got to Lion, but no Webelos or AOL. AOL did not exist then, and Webelos was a far less significant extra, not a separate rank. We moved and I stayed in scouting all through high school but never finished Eagle. Worked four summers on camp staff at Camp Pa He Tsi on the Lake of the Ozarks, and started college. Went to the 1957 Jamboree in Valley Forge. Very active in OA but did not get to Vigil at that time because no body in our lodge was Vigil. I presume that has changed.

I always felt that I would return to scouting but that did not happen until 1988. We are blessed with three sons all of whom are aged out. Only the middle son got his eagle, but they all benefited from scouting in different ways. I always believed in scouting. Many of the fondest memories of my youth are from scouting. In our family the idea of community service, including time in the military, was a major value instilled by the example of our parents and earlier forebears. So naturally when the time came I stepped forward to give back some of what I had been given. Still active, particularly in training programs where I feel I can leverage my experience and knowledge most effectively to the benefit of the organization.

As someone else noted, adult association with like minded adults is good for adults too. I love the time I get to spend outdoors with other adults and youth, and I love being part of the training program.

I am still amazed at how profoundly Baden Powell was ahead of his time.

The facts as described hardly warrant removal from the unit or from scouting. Did these adults err? Yes. Are we all perfect? No. I agree that all that needs to be done has been done. I have not heard anything that suggests that the physical or moral well being of the youth on the outing was actually harmed.

Regarding Orange County, the action by the council seems only prudent. I suspect that a lot of public facilities such as parks and national forests are probably closed for the duration of the crisis in any event. Anybody thinking of going camping anywhere in Southern California right now would be well advised to postpone their outing.

I certainly agree that demanding 100% participation is ill advised at a minimum and impossible to attain anyway. As LisaBob points out, many, if not most boys would leave scouting altogether. No troop that I have been associated with had such a requirement.

There does remain a serious issue when a relatively inactive scout wants to take on a serious position of responsibility. I believe that a unit is fully within its rights to demand a high level of participation for boys in leadership positions, still short of 100%, but otherwise the unit may fail in many areas of its program. Such expectations need to be set at the front end of a boy assuming a position of responsibility.

One way to enforce some discipline regarding outings is to make scouts and their families financially responsible for their fair share of outing costs where a scout has committed to participate and then bails. Allowing scouts to not participate in outings they committed to without penalty also is unfair to those scouts who may have wanted to go on an outing where the total headcount was restricted by wilderness permits and the like.

GernBlansten,

Yours is also an interesting story that I think reinforces two points. The first point is the risk in relying on a long term individual for the key position of SM and the second is the value in planned change and transition.

Lisabob,

Your last post is certainly on point regarding term limits and rotating positions. The reason that I think a three year minimum is more appropriate is that clearly the first year in a position is spent climbing up a steep learning curve. On other hand, if there is a regular rotation and everybody expects that, successors can be properly groomed and transitions will be less difficult. Better continuity with the desirable past will be maintained, while making change will also be made easier. And likely less adult burn out.

Chippewa's story sounds familiar to most of us and applies to almost any organization. Non profit volunteer organizations are even more difficult to change because of the level of emotional investment by all the participants.

This is an argument for term limits. While I admire the contributions of the dedicated people who stay at it for years, I think organizations benefit from periodic changes of leadership. I would suggest no fewer than three and nor more than five years for a scoutmaster. Spread the work around and gain the benefit from fresh approaches and different thinking. This is not an argument to always repudiate what was done in the past, but rotating the key positions avoids getting locked into personalities and fixed ways of doing things.

I have to concur with the other posts. This troop is probably widely perceived as successful to the extent that anybody further up thinks about the troop at all, and nobody is going to disturb a success. I have seen similar situations and they will not change unless something goes drastically wrong on an outing or there is a scandal over advancement or some such.

It does come back to what experience your own son wants out of scouting. You should talk to him before you talk to anyone else.

I would be concerned about the lack of training among the adults. How qualified are these people really?

No scouting for me this last weekend. Difficult as it may be to believe there are other things in life. My wife and I took a needed break from our resepective professions and scouting and everything else but us, and took off for the weekend. No cell phones. No email. Just us.

All of the observations posted above are correct. It is harder to change a troop, but that may not be a bad thing. Clearly the slower rate of turnover of adult leadership is a factor. People become heavily invested in the current way of doing things and are reluctant to change for a variety of reasons. Another factor is that the BSA program at the boy scout level is much more complex than the cub program. Advancement is much more serious and up to the boy. Outdoor programs are obviously much more serious requiring competent trained adult leadership. The fact that the boys are supposed to lead rather than just absorb is big big difference. One of the best immersion training syllabi available for new parents in a troop who do not want to be ASMs is the Troop Committee Challenge syllabus. It can be quite an eye opener for new parents, even if they do not take up an active role on the committee.

I have never construed the requirement for the scoutmaster signature to mean approval of any particular MB counselor. If a troop wants to assert some quality control in steering boys to counselors, then I think that probably is within the authority of the scoutmaster. Of course, as others have pointed out, if a scoutmaster feels that a particular counselor is unsatisfactory in some way that should be taken up with the district person responsible for counselors.

In my mind the requirement for the scoutmaster signature before a scout begins work gives the scoutmaster a chance to stay on top of a boy's progress. A wise scoutmaster might use the opportunity presented to him when a boy seeks a blue card to inquire about the boy's progress on the other badges the boy is supposedly working on and suggest that the boy might finish up x, y and z badges before he starts something else.

Complaining to your unit commissioner is premature, based on the fragmentary information we are all opining about. The unit may well be within its rights to reject sign offs by some merit badge counselors and for all I know the merit badge program at the camp in question truly stinks. That does not excuse the troop from failing to communicate its policy before the troop went to summer camp and the boys signed up for merit badges. At a minimum the scoutmaster owes you a very specific conversation about all this. If he or she will not talk to you then you work your way up the ladder. I tend to agree with some posters that the policy and apparent attitude of the troop is questionable, but none of us has enough information right now.

Some folks have dismissed merit badges as just pieces of cloth. That is an unfortunate attitude. We have to take these thinks seriously. We either believe in BSA and its methods or we do not. If we do not take these things seriously the boys will not either.

It''s George Bush''s fault.