eisely

I am absolutely serene in the certain knowledge that I will be wrong from time to time.

It has been some time since I thought about this issue, but all of the posts are consistently correct in that there are no rules for how a unit committee should choose the adult candidates. I noticed one incorrect statement. The number of adult nominees a unit is allowed is based on the number of scouts in the unit, not the number of boys elected. However there is a different link between "boys elected" and adult nominations. In any given election cycle (in our lodge calendar year) the unit must elect at least one youth candidate to be eligible to nominate any adult. If no youth candidate is elected, no adult can be nominated.

Our lodge sends an election packet to all scoutmasters in January. This lays out out the rules and includes two forms. One form is for pertinent information about all youth eligible for election, and one form is for adult nominations. The last time I looked at the adult nomination form, there was no space for the scout executive to sign. District and lodge adult advisors had to sign, but not the executive. That may have changed.

I have not personally experienced the situation you describe where there are more adult eligibles than there are slots available for a unit.

I would suggest the following:

Have an adult in your unit who is already a member assume responsibility for this process. By virtue of already being a member, such an adult presumably would have fewer or no conflicts of interest. After all adult elgibles are identified, ask each one privately if they are interested. There is no point in nominating someone who is not interested. If you still have more eligibles than slots, I think I would run an election among the adults just as with the youth. The committee would have to devise the process and determine who can actually vote. All parents? Only registered adults? Only registered committee members? I would think that all registered adults should participate. Just my thought.

Since our kids are well beyond school age, we miss a lot of this sort of thing. Apparently this is an event intended to promote homosexuality among school age children happening this week. Anybody hear of this one?

One of the scariest driving experiences I ever experienced involved a pair of deer in Pennsylvania many years ago. I was heading West on I-80 at dusk in a Volkswagen beatle when two deer crossed the highway. One right in front of me and one behind. It happened so fast I had no time to react. At my speed in that car, if I had hit either one of these creatures, I would not be writing this post today.

Western mule deer infest the hills where I live here in California. Passed a dead one by the road commuting to work the other day. Fortunately vehicle accidents are few. Mostly they just devastate your expensive landscaping.

I have to agree with BW. Asking a scout who is going to vote for puts the scout into a very awkward position where the scout is already under a certain amount of stress. I don't ask other co workers, neighbors, store clerks, or other scouters who they are going to vote for. If a particular cocktail party conversation turns to politics that is one thing. If someone volunteers information about their voting plans, I may discuss it with them, but I will not start any conversation, much less an EBOR, with the question, "Who are you going to vote for?"

I have been involved as a trainer in the OLS syllabus since it first came out. One of my motivations for volunteering to be a trainer was my dissatisfaction with the training that I attended earlier in my career as a volunteer.

We run a fairly high powered course. We maximize the hands on aspect. I do map & compass and I give them maps to orient. I have them take a bearing where the answer is obvious. We also run a small orienteering course with a bona fide orienteering map.

When I teach axe safety I offer the trainees the opportunity to split a piece of wood. Those who are comfortable with their skills usually pass and those who may have never touched an axe take me up on the offer.

Likewise with liquid fuel backpacking stoves. The trainees actually get an opportuntiy to check out and fire up a stove.

The trainees also get hands on experience in foil cooking, knots, first aid, and plant and animal ID.

Our course is unusual because we have three districts offer the training jointly. This enables us to put more resources into the training. Our typical group going through is about 50 scouters twice a year.

Just going through the syllabus is not sufficient. One has to figure out creative ways to set up hands on exercises.

There is also a training syllabus for committees of boy scout troops that is worth doing. This can be done on line, although most people who have done that have found it rather dry. There is a program available for live training that might be offered in your area.

I don't see how this would be consistently compatible with LNT camping. In some situations you would spread out to adhere to LNT principles. In other situations you would jam people together.

Taking care of the grounds around the Washington Monument. Now THAT is a service project. A little too ambitious I think.

I agree with the other posters that "routine labor" would be some kind of maintenance chore done frequently on a repetitive basis. Repainting the church, while repeated every few years, would not under this interpretation be "routine labor." I recall one Eagle project where we did a large number of small deferred maintenance projects for a church all over a single weekend. None of the projects by themselve would have been sufficient to meet the intent of the Eagle project, but taken together there was a great deal there to be done. Actually this scout had to probably exercise even more leadership in planning, coordinating, and supervising the activities on the work days precisely because there so many different things going simultaneously in different parts of the church complex.

We are a relatively large trooop and we have always had an Eagle advisor/coordinator. Currently I am doing that for the troop. My main function in this particular capacity is to make sure that the scout, and his parents if they ask, understand the paperwork process, what signatures are required and when they are required. I also accumulate the reference letters, marry them up with the binder after all the signatures are on the application form, and deliver the binder to the district advancement person who schedules the boards of review. I do not really counsel, mentor, or advise the scout regarding his project or anything else. The only advice I give is what kinds of people he should use for references and what those references should speak to. Since we have had as many as eight eagles in a single year, this really takes a burden off of the scoutmaster.

While this may seem a trivial role, the fact is that these boys have rarely ever had to deal with any real paperwork in their lives. It is a complex process and they need some knowledgeable person who is accessible to answer their questions and guide them. Teaching them how to deal with complex paper trails is a valuable lesson for the world we live in.

The one thing I might mention that our council now does is review the binder and records and sign off on that part of the Eagle application before the board of review. This has been a big help and eliminates frustration at the end. The last person to sign anything after the board of review is the scout executive.(This message has been edited by eisely)

As another poster commented, "adult association" is one of the eight methods of scouting and dealing with non parental merit badge counselors is one way of doing that. It is correct that BSA national policy has no restriction on parental MB counseling, but I would think it prudent for a troop to line up at least two counselors for the eagle required badges to minimize this conflict of interest question.

As with the metal worker, I have counseled two of my sons on canoeing MB because there were no other qualified adults. This was all done in the context of extended canoe treks where all the boys were working on the MB. I also cleared that with the troop and the district advancement committee ahead of time.

Semper,

If your district chair will back you and you have a slate of volunteers available to fill the vacated positions when the current group resigns in protest, go for it.

Semper,

That is way over the top. We have a designated volunteer who reviews the plan before execution and nobody at the district sees the workbook again until EBOR time. If anybody even suggested what you are experiencing there would be a revolution at all levels. Somebody is on a power trip.

Apparently this is an attempt to do background checks on all the scouters who were previously in the system who have never filled out an application since the checks began. Those of us who have changed registrations in the interval for one reason or another presumably will have complied.

There is no reason for local units to retain SSNs as far as I can tell. I make it a point to advise adult volunteeer applicants that the SSN is obliterated on the back copies of the application and goes forward only to the council.

I also get nervous about record keeping at our council. Almost every young man who has come up for Eagle has had to spend time working with our Advancement person and the council staff to reconcile and update his advancement records at the council office. Of course this is a different kind of problem than unauthorized disclosure.

The one person no one has mentioned in all this is your unit commissioner. These are the kinds of issues that a commissioner can, and is supposed to, help with.

One of the things I would like to see in official BSA guidance is that committee chairs, scoutmasters, treasurers, and advancement coordinators should all come from different households. This forum has seen numerous talkes like this where key leadership positions were performed by spouses from the same household.

One cannot change WHAT is required but one is allowed latitude in figuring out HOW the requirement will be met. I see no problem with asking for some kind of documentation but one can cross a line somewhere, as has been pointed out, in making it less fun and interesting for the scouts.

For example, in teaching how to identify Posion Oak, I would in the past cut some Poison Oak (very carefully I might add) and put it into a zip lock bag. I would place other cuttings of other plants in other zip locks and see if the scouts could identify the Poison Oak. This also was a good teaching vehicle. By providing a bona fide test with real samples, I was not adding to the requirement.

Carry a can of bear spray perhaps. Or a lot catnip?

An interesting story. I personally have never experienced anything like this.

Big cats are an issue here in California. They are now over protected by state law such that even the Fish & Wildlife people working for the state cannot impose controls on them.

There was an incident in Southern California, probably about 15 years ago, where someone was attacked by a mountain lion in a State Park in Orange County. A family had been over the same trail earlier with small children and had been taking pictures. When they had the photos developed, you could clearly see the cat in the brush a few feet away from one of the children. The photo was published in the LA Times. The parents never saw the cat until they developed the photos. Scary.

Our troop does not do this, but there are many troops that do. One of the issues in my mind is crediting ticket sales versus participation. Our troop does two car washes each year. It is not obvious to me how I would credit the two distinct activities that a scout may perform in connection with the fund raising, selling tickets or washing cars.

You do need written policies about what the funds may be used for and how unused funds will be handled when the boy leaves scouting altogether or transfers out to another unit.

This can be a lot of extra work for the treasurer so you have to make sure your treasurer is both willing and able to take this on.

Is that the same sniper who fired on Hillary in Bosnia?

Committee Secretary is one of the positions recommended by BSA National. This position often goes unfilled. As a practical matter, the committee chair wields a great deal of influence over anything the committee does or does not do. Personally I agree with you. I think minutes should be kept. However, if your committee chair refuses even when there is a volunteer willing and able to do the job, there is a problem. Other than butting heads with the committee chair over this, I don't see an easy resolution.

John-in-KC,

You are certainly correct that this event is less significant than other issues of the day. However, I submit that one of the unstated purposes of the government in addition to "providing for the common defense, etc." is to provide entertainment. I think this episode fits that purpose rather well.(This message has been edited by eisely)

I do not deduct my personal investments in outdoor gear for the reason noted above. I do use it for non scouting activities. Uniforms are 100% deductible. Mileage is deductible, but a lower rate than the standard rate for business travel. Any unreimbursed expenses that I can legitmately tie to my scouting activities I deduct.

In some states a "physician assistant" may be licensed to do a physical. Also some states license D.O.'s, known as "Doctor of Osteopathy."

Perhaps prostitution should be legalized as in Nevada, but in the meantime Spitzer broke the law. Prostitution is sometimes called a "victimless" crime, but that is not really correct. The victims are the women involved. One has cases of even underage girls being forced into prostitution. Spitzer knew the law and he intentionally broke the law. This is not consensual sex between legal adults, but commercial sex and that is illegal.

I have never heard anyone say that the specific acts in which Bill Clinton engaged with Monica were illegal. The illegal acts of Bill Clinton were lying about it under oath. He pleaded guilty to those illegal acts and stands convicted of felony.

Spitzer's acts are clear violations of the law. If the citizens of New York think that it is OK to have an accused felon (assuming that indictments are coming), then that is their business, but I would not want such a person serving in a position of trust.

Spitzer's wife and family do deserve much better, but there is one person, and only one person, responsible for the pain he has caused them.(This message has been edited by eisely)