eisely

Might as well add my two cents worth.

It is correct that the BSA Troop Committee Guidelines do not call for elections to Committee Chair or any other position, but such procedures are not prohibited either. If a particular unit or chartered organization wants to structure its affairs with detailed bylaws or other form of written procedures, there is nothing to prevent this. If such bylaws require elections for specific positions, there would be no reason this could not be done, but I think it would be cumbersome and ultimately counter productive.

The specific problem raised is removal/replacement of a troop committee chair. From my viewpoint this would be more difficult to do than replacement/removal of any other unit level adult volunteer, including the scoutmaster. The removal can be accomplished relatively bloodlessly at re chartering time, but the key person is the institutional head or designated chartered organization representative. The difficulty with this is that the re chartering process is one controlled mostly by the committee chair, who is the target for replacement. As was pointed out, most such institutional heads really do not want to get involved in these kinds of disputes, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't act. Unfortunately this requires a lot of "politicing" and can create a lot of ill will. The best outcome would be for someone at a higher level, say district or council, to recruit the person to a different position, assuming that the individual is capable and willing to do so.

One source of these urban legends is that some things that are not true today may well have been true, or at least partially true, in the past.

In reading through LisaBob's list of urban legends regarding Cub Scouts I notice the point about a boy getting credit for certain things done in Cub Scouts towards requirements in Boy Scouts. When our oldest son first became involved in a Boy Scout troop, the official handbook for the boys actually had such information in it. That is to say, if a boy could demonstrate that he had done a certain thing as Webelos Cub Scout, he could get credit for a particular rank skill requirement. That particular scheme was discarded shortly thereafter, but I can see how someone who has not attempted to stay current could still have such an idea.

Whenever I am functioning as a trainer I try to be very conscientious about making sure I am providing current information whatever the topic may be. Where I know that "urban legends" may exist I sometimes incorporate that into my spiel, like asking the trainees if fixed blade knives are permitted, or if a double bladed axe is permitted. It is an interesting way to stimulate discussion and drive home a point that everyone has to be on their toes when relying on an "oral tradition" of scouting.

Some of you may have seen or heard this story. This falls into the category of "how stupid and lucky at the same time can one human being get?"

I wasn't going to post this until I saw the bit about the horoscope reference. Maybe as part of our preparations for treks we should consult the horoscopes for all our scouts, particularly Leos.

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FOOTHILL RANCH, Calif. Saying he "wasn't scared at all", a self-described homeless man told KCAL 9 reporter Michele Gile in an interview that he tried to pet three mountain lion cubs because he "was fascinated by them" and "because I'm a Leo...I'm a lion, too."

Kevin Lassiter, 47, is lucky the mother lion considered him kin. The worst Lassiter got was a nasty swipe on his arm. He could have been killed.

Still, Lassiter told Gile his personal safety was never in question. "I was never worried about it," Lassiter said, "I saw the little babies ...and I just wanted to say hi. And here comes mom and she wacked me in the arm."

Authorities Wednesday called off the search for a mountain lion and three cubs on Borrego Trail in Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park.

The victim was being treated for superficial wounds at Saddleback Memorial Medical Center in Laguna Hills. Lassiter said he needed 27 stitches to close his wounds. He was also given a rabies shot.

Richard Bales, who manages a gas station in the area, said the victim came to his business bleeding profusely from his right arm.

"He had three ... scratches along the arm, about four or five inches long," Bales said. "And he had blood all over his clothes, and it was getting all over the floor. He explained that he was in the park across the street and had seen a mountain lion, and he apparently reached to pet it and that it scratched him. We went ahead and rendered first aid. We tried to stop the bleeding and we went in and called 911 to let the sheriff and medical personnel know so that we could bring assistance to him."

Bales said the man is a regular customer and he walks with a cane and has some paralysis.

Park rangers, sheriff's deputies and Department of Fish and Game personnel, with the help of a helicopter, were searching the area.

The park has been closed, along with Foothill Elementary School, which is less than a mile from the area, sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said.

"If it happened the way the victim stated, he should consider himself very lucky to walk away with minor injuries," Amormino said. "If the mountain lion did scratch him, it was a provoked incident, and we're probably not going to do anything" to the mountain lion.

Park rangers, sheriff's deputies and Department of Fish and Game personnel, with the help of a helicopter, were searching the area.

The park had been closed, along with Foothill Elementary School, which is less than a mile from the area, sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said.

By 4:30, the search was called off and the Wilderness Park re-opened to the public.

Gile also asked Lassiter if he would ever pet a mountain lion again and he said, deadpan, "No, I will not."

This particular urban legend is one that I heard, and accepted as correct for a long time, when I first became re involved in scouting as an adult volunteer.

Another popular scouting urban legend is that BSA prohibits the use of liquid fuel stoves and lanterns. Not true.

I wonder where PETA would come out on this ethical debate. PETA has already condemned the Fishing MB for causing pain to fish.

Aside from the sarcasm, any scout who wants to do this should be aware that some insects are protected species, particularly some butterflies. We wouldn't want our scouts to get busted for a federal offense would we?(This message has been edited by eisely)

I agree with the other posters who suggest hand wash with Woolite.

There is absolutely no reason a troop cannot do such a trek. I do not know anyone personally who has done this, but the last time our troop in Southern California many years ago considered this, the demand for permits was so high that there was a lottery for slots. I don't know whether this is still true or not. This would be an exceptionally physically demanding trek.

An alternative that would be just as much fun in the same area is to trek into the Havasupai Indian Reservation. This reservation lies to the Southwest of the National Park and the northern boundary of the reservation is a section of the Colorado River. While you do not get the spectacular vistas of the main canyon, you do get the waterfalls and swimming holes on the creek that created the side canyon on which the reservation is located. You could still visit the scenic overlooks of the main canyon.

I don't have a good link to this, but try Googling "Canoe Camping USA". There is a website with tons of information on rivers, outfitters, proposed trips, etc.

Also, depending upon circumstances and time, set up and utilize one of the methods for direction finding using the sun.

Take along a "start finder" and teach the boys about the use of the stars for navigation.

There may be something of an elitist attitude on the part of some OA members, but that, IMHO, is quite rare. The various honor societies, and there are many, do serve a valuable purpose in reinforcing the ideals of scouting, to say nothing of genuine service rendered.

Are the OA programs in particular always effectively executed? No more so than any particular troop always doing well. It is after all a human institution run by volunteers. One of the most telling statistics is the fact that few "ordeal" members show up a year later to get their "brotherhood" membership. Clearly there is a problem in motivating new members to be at least somewhat active.

One of the practices that they recommend at Philmont (at least when I was last there) is to NOT apply any sunblock or insect repellant after 3:00 PM. The idea is that scents would have dissipated or the material washed off with sweat etc. so that when one retires in the evening you are not giving out any non human scents. I can only say that I have followed this advice and have never been attacked by a bear in the evening when I did so. Never been attacked by a bear at all come to think of it....

Isn't that Bob White reading the rules to the listeners?

McCain should be so lucky as to get big $ from big donors. The big donors made a decision over a year ago to put most of their bets on the Democrats this cycle. Both candidates are in an awkward position on this. Both want to claim to be the candidates of "change" yet both have reverted to conventional politics when it comes to fund raising. I happen to think that BO's flip is just more outrageous on this particular issue.

We all want our elected officials at any level of government to be willing to listen and reconsider their established positions based on new information. However, BO's flip on public campaign financing is really a gratuitous and opportunistic play to enable him to spend in excess of the public financing limits. He also has turned to the usual Hollywood suspects for substantial donations. That is one thing that puzzles me. How can an individual donate in excess of the established limits?

Personally I would repeal the campaign financing laws in their present form and require instantaneous disclosure of all donations on the internet. Let the voters decide if a candidate is accepting too much money from different interests.

There appear to be a variety of reasons for the SM signature requirement, and I do not disagree with anything that anybody has said. Certainly BW is correct in pointing out that the SM in question is not adhering to the program. I can certainly see the wisdom in trying to channel a boy's efforts to completing first class, but there is no authority or good reason to attempt to hold a boy back if he wants to charge ahead on a MB. One may also encounter situations where a rare oppotunity to work on a particular badge comes up. Excluding scouts who are not yet first class from such opportunities seems arbitrary and unfair.

In addition to monitoring YP compliance, the SM signature requirement also affords another opportunity for better "internal controls" within the troop on advancement generally. If the SM is keeping a good side record of who is working on what badge, this makes it easier to resolve claims about subsequent MB completion when the SM did not even know that a particular scout was working on a particular MB.

My impression is that this $30K has accumulated over an extended period of time. All of the suggestions about stepping up the program, making some investments, and curtailing fund raisers are sound.

I was not aware of the issue about simply cashing scouts out when they age out, but it makes sense and I am glad to have the information.

What about a younger scout whose family simply moves away and the boy joins a new troop in another town? It would seem fair to cash out such a scout to facilitate continuing his scouting career. I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this aspect of the situation.

Re boots and odors

In 2002 my son and I were returning from Philmont in uniform. The good people at the airport requested that my son take his boots off. Mind you, we had been off of the trail for over 24 hours at this point, properly showered, etc. After my son took his first boot off, the security guy immediately excused him from taking his second boot off and urgently requested that he put the other boot back on.

The idea of putting small quantities of sugar containing items sealed in the original packaging in one's boot for ready access at night strikes me as a good idea. No guarantee, but a good idea nevertheless.

Obama should take up gymnastics with so many flip flops to his credit. What does this guy really stand for?

The counselor should keep the counselor's third of the card. This is an important backup record should other records be lost or challenged. I would keep the counselor's third for seven years and then discard.

Alameda is a council unto itself. Learned something new today.

The Piedmont council in the San Francisco Bay Area is named after the small incorporated town (city?) of Piedmont. Piedmont is a separate very wealthy and very exclusive enclave completely surrounded by Oakland. Piedmont happens to be surrounded by the nicer part of Oakland, but it is clear that people in Piedmont wish to keep some distance between themselves and their immediate neighbors and that extends to scouting as well. As long as the council is viable BSA is not too likely to disturb things. I infer that there is also a degree of political influenced involved in all this as well.

We see a lot of Piedmont scouters at our training events which suggests to me that the Piedmont council would not be able to sustain a program without the indirect support of other councils. I do not know if the Piedmont council operates its own summer camp, but I suspect that their troops go to other council's camps as well. I have never heard of a camp operated by the Piedmont council.

As mentioned in the first post, Marin County has its own council and its own summer camp. There are numerous scout summer camps in the Sierras and I was not aware that the Marin Council operated one of those. The summer camp site that I am thinking about is Camp Tamarancho which is actually within Marin County proper. Marin County is on the peninsula North of the Golden Gate. It may be only ten airline miles from Oakland to Marin County, but there are major physical barriers called San Francisco Bay and San Pablo Bay between Marin County and the rest of the bay area. There are good and sound reasons based on geography alone to leave it alone.

Alameda is also a separately incorporated city. I was not aware that it too had its own council, and I will look for confirmation of that. Alameda also can be considered to be an enclave surrounded by Oakland and the water of San Francisco Bay and connecting channels. Alameda is on an island and unless you go there by boat, you have to go through Oakland to get there. I would not consider Alameda to be a wealthy enclave like Piedmont. Alameda has been in serious trouble as a town since the closure of the Alameda Naval Air Station some years back.

One has to question the judgment of the adult leaders in going forward in unusually treacherous conditions. I consider myself an experienced canoeist but still a novice at white water canoeing. If in doubt - pull out.

REI is actually a cooperative that rebates 10% of purchases back to members each year in the form of a voucher for more purchases. Our local REI store used to have, and may still have, a program where a scout troop can set up an account with designated buyers. The troop then gets the 10% discount at the time of purchase. This is not an open credit account, just a program for making the discounts available.

In the past I have rented canoes from two different outfitters who also extended discounts to scout groups. This is something you typically have to ask for.

I agree with the other posts that suggest that the national figures are low because of poor record keeping. Given the various ways in which the records can error in under stating, I think it highly unlikely that the available information includes names of people as trained who are not trained. The most likely way for that to happen would be for some adult to lie about the training in which he or she has participated.

I was at a meeting just yesterday where this was discussed. Every district and every council has the same problem. I think one of the causes of this continued poor record keeping may be the way that BSA records membership. Many, if not most, adult leaders are not aware that they have an assigned membership number. In our meeting yesterday I suggested that we should start asking for that information on the registration forms for all our training events. A baby step perhaps in the right direction.

Our troop has canvassed the adults twice in the last five years to find out what training we have all acquired. And we do a pretty good job at record keeping.