Eamonn

"that's being merged into a generic Cub Scout knot, which I think is a mistake." Have to say that I'm in two minds about this. In my neck of the woods most of the Den Leaders are female. They come on board when their son is a Tiger and remain in the program as long as they have a son in Cub Scouting. I had one Mother join us, she had four sons and went on to become the Cubmaster. Boy Scouting in my area is very much a male thing. We never have had a female SM and I can't remember ever seeing a female ASM. Some Cub Scout Mums do go on to serve as Committee members of the Troop that their son joins. I'm not sure but I'll guess that about 10% of our Den Leaders are male and a fair number of these do cross over with their son and while some do go on to become Lifer's most only last 3 or maybe 4 years. It almost goes without saying how very important these Den Leaders both male and female are. Without them and their willingness to volunteer and step up to the plate Scouting in our area would take a very big hit. So with this in mind I'm very much for doing as much as can be done to thank these fine people and if a little knot helps give them a well deserved pat on the back? I say go for it. Then you come across an old codger like myself. While of course I can choose what knots to wear or not wear, the truth is that I have way too many. I don't have and never earned a knot for Tiger Cubs, but I did earn the Cubmaster knot.If I had earned the Tiger knot other than adding to the already clutter of knots that a lot of people even those with years in, don't always understand what am I communicating to others? Doesn't the CM knot tell that I served my time in Cub Scouting? Rather than reducing the knots that are available, maybe a recommendation of how many knots can be worn would serve us all better? Eamonn

johnponz I think you are seeing a lot of stuff that just isn't there. I posted: "I'm not in favor of people taking on too much and I'm not for people wearing more than one hat. But if that's the way things are done in your neck of the woods? Then that's the way things are done. The truth is that someone knows what the "Good Book" says. They know why they do things the way that they do and also know that no one is ever going to check and even if they did the penalty is no more than ten lashes with a wet Wood Badge." I don't think that I know Unkiewill. He hasn't posted which Council he hails from, so I don't think that I know who asked him to serve as a U/C. Here's what I think I know. He is someone who at one time must have been active in Scouting. My seeing " Eagle, Vigil, Summer Camp Staff and all of that good stuff." Kinda led me in that direction. After a break of sometime away from Scouting he is returning to volunteer his time. He is also new to the forum. While of course I don't know his real intention of posting. I'm guessing that he just wanted to say "Hello' And introduce himself. As sometimes happens in this forum someone seen something that wasn't by the book and the thread got a life of its own. Unkiewill may or may not have known about the rule that states that youth leaders can't serve as commissioners. - My thinking (I'm not sure.) Is that he didn't. By me posting "I'm not in favor of people taking on too much and I'm not for people wearing more than one hat." I think I let it be known that I'm not in favor of this and don't condone this. I waffled on saying :"The truth is that someone knows what the "Good Book" says. They know why they do things the way that they do and also know that no one is ever going to check and even if they did the penalty is no more than ten lashes with a wet Wood Badge." So again me not knowing the Council where Unkie is from, I don't know what the situation there is. The people who work, volunteer and do that stuff very well might have good reasons as to why they have chosen not to follow the rule. I'm think of a Council that covers a remote, rural area with very few volunteers or maybe an inner city area where some volunteers are scared to go into some areas. Then of course as always there is the what happens when we break the rules. There are of course some things that should never be done, things that might end up with someone in jail, arrested. Some things that might be cause to have our membership in the BSA to be revoked. But for just about everything else the person we answer to is ourselves. I face that man in the mirror. I belong to an organization that hopes to help the young people we serve be able to make ethical decisions. I do so by the example I set. I can't and will not carry the weight of what others might do. However at the same time it is very wrong of me to sit in judgment of others, especialy when I don't have all the facts. We can debate if the rule is a good rule or a bad rule. But when it comes to Unkiewill? In my book as far as I know the guy is just doing something that was asked of him. I don't know who asked him or why they asked. Do you? Eamonn.

Unkiewill - Welcome. I wish you all the best in what you are about to take on. While I should caution you not to take on too much. That at the end of the day will be your call. However remember that even the most understanding of wives have their limits. I'm not in favor of people taking on too much and I'm not for people wearing more than one hat. But if that's the way things are done in your neck of the woods? Then that's the way things are done. The truth is that someone knows what the "Good Book" says. They know why they do things the way that they do and also know that no one is ever going to check and even if they did the penalty is no more than ten lashes with a wet Wood Badge. Eamonn

As a District Commish. I never asked a unit leader to serve on the Commissioner staff. Not because of any rule or whatever but just because in my book serving the unit is the most important job. At one point in time our Council Commish did try and push the recruiting of unit leaders but it never took off. I think if the truth be told that any real Commissioner service died a long time ago, but no one seems willing to admit it. I also tend to think again if the truth be told that the numbers given as active U/C's are way off. While having someone who represents the grass root Scouter's and the units on the Council and District key 3 is a very good thing. Unit service just doesn't happen and in places where it is still gasping for life the quality of service leaves a lot to be desired. I have never been a great fan of people wearing too many (More than one!) Hats. I do believe whole heartedly that their heart is in the right place. I just don't think that they can do a good job or maybe I should say good jobs. When I first became a District Commish. I had a staff of 27. Most of these were elderly, some weren't allowed to drive after dark. A good many were miss fits that someone had pushed into service because they just didn't fit in any place else. I thought this the poor quality of service was something that was unique to my District and the Council. So I packed my bags and went to the Delivering Commissioner Service Conference at Philmont. I sat and heard the horror stories from other Councils and returned having not learned very much but thinking my band of OAP's and misfits were better than most. Eamonn

From my observations most times the youth who volunteer to help at events are treated as being special and the adults seem thankful for what they are doing. This changes a bit at summer camp when the staff is paid. Then the expectation seems to higher and at times some of the adults forget that the youth staff are still youths. Ea.

Hi, "Folks in Laurel Highlands Council are welcome to chime in and disagree" While I'm not from Folks in Laurel Highlands Council, but that other Council just down the road, I'm not sure what there is to agree or disagree with? The Council that you serve is big -Very big! Smaller Councils don't have the same large membership as to be able to do things the same way. - For example I'll bet that I could hold a meeting of all the Venturers in our Council in my dining room and still have room for more. Wagion Lodge 6 has a very good reputation and as OA lodges go is second to none. The Lodge is very much run by the youth. Not just because of who might be Chief but because there is a culture in place and that's the way it is done has been done and is expected to be done. More then just the Chief the committees take a lot if not most of the responsibility for what events and what the Lodge does. We haven't had a Council Event for a good number of years. When we used to have them they were very much adult led and organized. Troops were given the opportunity to do their own thing working within the theme of the event. I remember some years back walking around and visiting a Troop that was making rope and another that was making candles. The Scouts were doing the demos. But I don't know where the ideas came from or how involved the adults were? I sat on the Area Committee and other than selecting people for the world jamboree, ensuring that there were qualified people to inspect summer camps. The committee didn't plan or organize any events. Districts were and are responsible for District events and Camporee. The only Cub Scout event is the District Pine Wood Derby, which is adult organized and led. The Boy Scout First Aid competition is organized and led by adults. We have tried inviting SPL's to the monthly Boy Scout R/T To help organize District Camporee. To be honest it just didn't work. There isn't a good way of communicating with Scouts from different Troops and a method of ensuring that the tasks that are set are being done. Sometimes a Troop will offer to run and organize a District Camporee. This is normally based around something that the Troop is good at. Often they will use older Scouts as instructors or presenters, but as for who is at the helm? This depends on the Troop. Most of the communications go from the event organizer to the District Activities Chair and then on to the SM's. The Ship has participated in some Sea Scout events many of these events have been around for a very long time and are organized by the adults. Eamonn.

As a rule I'm very much an old Book Thumper when it comes to requirements and having them met. I think you need to have an informal chat with the District Training Chair. He or she should be able to point you in the right direction. My own feelings? I don't have the requirements in front of me. In the area where I live a lot if not most of the Den Leaders are female. (Yes I know that I walking on thin ice!). In my book how the do what they manage to do? Is really remarkable. - Finding the time to look after a family and add to all that do everything that is needed to be a Den Leader. -Wow, my hat is off to them. So on the one hand I'm faced with the requirements and on the other someone who has taken the training's and done an outstanding job. Maybe, just maybe if Pow Wows were available they might have gone? It isn't their fault that the Council doesn't offer these. Maybe if they weren't busy parents there might be time on top of the Den meetings, Leaders meetings, pack meetings, PTO meetings, soccer, ballet, church meetings and all the other meetings there might be more time to attend the Round Table? How good are the R/T meetings? I've attended some that no one would want to miss, while I've also attended some that seemed to be more about FOS and popcorn sales than anything else. Not anything that I'd want to rush home for and feed the kids pizza. Some District /Council Training Chairs are big on requirements, sticking to the letter of the law. I have served as both a District and Council Training Chair and I didn't If someone had taken the needed trainings had the needed tenure I was OK with it. Maybe in part because I as Council Training chair was the person responsible for discontinuing Pow Wows! R/T meetings? Are of course run by the Commissioner staff who I'm sure try and find a night that's good for everyone, but in my opinion for parents of Cub Scout aged kids no night is a good night. I was happy if every Pack was represented. So I'd be willing to go ahead and give them the knot. Heck if all it takes is a knot to keep some one happy? Why not. Eamonn.

"the priest of the temple "? I'm thinking that there is something or some meaning in this that I'm missing. While I'm very much for adult training and have to admit that there are times when Scouting with no kids around makes a welcome and pleasant break. I also agree that WB is sometimes made out to be far more than what it is. Many years back I remember landing myself in hot water for allowing a Patrol to build a great looking bridge (Even if I say so myself!) On the training grounds at the real Gilwell. There seemed to be some sort of feeling that these grounds were very much sacred turf and even allowing a kid to set foot on them, let alone build a bridge was seen as being disrespectful. If ever there was someone less lightly to be seen as a "priest of the temple ". It was I. When I first took the course it was because it was something I needed in order to be a ASM for the 1975 World Jamboree, not a course I wanted to attend. At that time I was a very cocky, very full of myself pain in the neck. I was going through a stage where I thought (Knew??) That I was so very good and so very experienced that no darn silly training was of any use and I was going to show them. I never worked out who "Them" were. While I don't think I know what a Man Scout is. I do think that if Rovers had still been around. I might have been a better fit as a Rover. Having not woken up dead, over the next 30 years I got older. Maybe not wiser, but a lot less brash. Here in the States I took the Cub Scout course and went on to staff it. I seem to remember that it was described as being a "Mountain Top Experience". While there was a lot of good information, that would have helped the targeted group it was anything but a "Mountain Top Experience". I staffed a lot of Boy Scout courses. Why me? I'm not fat and never have been, don't have a beard. I have white hair but it was darker back when I was asked. I don't look good in a kilt and have a reputation of being a PIA more than one of the chosen few. OK maybe the accent helped, the idea of having a foreign novelty around and better yet one from the land of Gilwell? Very well might have played into it and made having me as a staff member a little more attractive? Some of the Boy Scout courses were full of add ons that different Councils had made in their own way WB Traditions that at times these became bigger than the course itself. I seen this as all being stuff and nonsense. But talking with guys who went through these courses it seems the more stuff and nonsense that there was the more this added to the mystic of Gilwell. I got to know a lot of the guys who staffed courses. A great many were from different Councils. Other than WB we didn't have a lot in common so of course when we met the main topic of conversation was the course. We as a group waited with baited breath to see what the new course would have in store. It was delayed a few times but when it did come out, it seemed that the only way to see if it would work or not was to let it run. I was a TG on the first run of the course in our area. - The CD selected no less than five ex'wb SM's to be on staff. Every thing we did was looked at and compared to the old Boy Scout course. Most of the former SM's just didn't like the course. In part because the staff had to work a lot harder than in the past. No more standing around telling war stories while the participants cooked. When I was selected as CD, I was still slim, still didn't have a beard, but did have white hair. The course the year before had been canceled because it hadn't made the minimum number required to run the course. I wasn't go to allow this to happen. Not on my watch! I made recruiting the number one priority. Did we oversell the course? Maybe. Did we use ""Mountain Top Experience". - You bet we did. When we ran the course did we ask people not to re-use some of the material? - Yes. After the course I attended a lot of beading ceremonies. Sure enough we sang the silly song and I feel sure that for some people who hadn't taken the course we seemed like a band from a Monty Python movie gone wrong. Still with more and more new staff members coming on board and less of the add ons, I think some of the mystic has gone. As for "the priest of the temple "? I can't help but think that when we describe Wood Badge in terms like that we do more harm than good. I think that I must have hit "New Topic" When I wanted to reply. But now it's done? I'm leaving this here. Eamonn

The year after a national jamboree we used to have a Council Wide Special Event, open to Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturers. Haven't had one for a long time as the last one just wasn't very good. I think it ended up just being Troops camping and climbing at Laurel Caverns. Ea.

Take my word for it, I'm not really that competitive. As a Lad I played a lot of sports and had fun. Winning is a lot better than losing. Back when I was a CM there was a Den Leader. A really nice Lady and great Den Leader. She wanted the Pack to not present awards at the Pine-wood Derby and just give everyone a ribbon for participating. We already were giving out these participation ribbons. I argued against this. My argument being that in life there will be winners and there will be losers. It was better that these little fellows learned this when they are young and in a safe environment. I won that one. But she was also active in our local soccer club. She and some of the other Mothers managed to push through that for our under sevens, no one would keep score and that there would be no goalie. I was thankful that my son was over seven and had no part in this?? Whatever it was, because it sure as heck wasn't soccer. If and when we start meddling with election's, they become pointless and we run the risk of people (Scouts) Seeing them as being fixed. Scouts and Scouting is very much about life lessons. Ea.

Welcome Willamor, When it comes to insurance and liability? I'm about as much use as pockets in your underwear. But... Most Councils have tucked away on their Executive Board someone who works in insurance. Maybe it's worth seeking him out? We are lucky in that we have a guy who is active in the Council who owns and operates a school bus company. We have used his buses with our volunteer drivers to carry Scouts at OA weekends from one site to another. Maybe if you talk with the bus company owner or his insurance carrier they can come up with something. Maybe renting 15 seater mini vans? Sorry I know that this wasn't much help. Good Luck. Ea. You might also want to check with your local United Way? I know in our area they have vans that they allow local groups to use at a very cheap rate. (This message has been edited by Eamonn)

Fink I'll just move! But where? Ea.

The methods of Scouting are viewed and interpreted differently by every one of us. I'm not sure how much you can really tell from what you have seen in both examples that you have seen? I personally have used the methods as a goal. Something that I try and aim for and work toward. Like most goals, nothing happens over night. The worst thing that any leader can do is to one day stand up and announce that as of today everything is changed. Most of the kids we deal with are not given the opportunity to make decisions or even much input into what goes on in their lives. They are told where to be, what to do and so on. A Troop with a long history and a Troop culture of following and using the Patrol Method is more than lightly not going to have as many problems using the method and at least will seem to people looking in, have their act together. In a perfect world, using a COH as an example. The PLC will have met, picked the time and date. Looked at everything that needed to be done and allocated the tasks to each P/L and Patrol. On the night the S/P/L, would be the first to arrive and he would oversee that everything was going to plan. Oh if it were only true! In the real world. Someone said it was time for a COH for whatever reason, the time and date were not chosen, the event took place when the location was available. It didn't matter that it was the same night as the rehearsal of the school play and that half the Scouts were going to be late. At the PLC no one planned anything. Everyone took it for granted that everything would just somehow fall into place. So come the night, the SPL along with half the P/L's were late and it was a scramble to get things done. While some might say that the SM standing back and allowing things to just happen is the right way to go, others will say that there is a time and a place when and where the adults do need to offer some guidance and lend a hand if need be. Both might be right but both might be wrong. Maybe with hindsight it will show that the planning was flawed from the get go? Maybe it was just one of them times and things that just couldn't be avoided. In my book what happened isn't really the big thing, the big thing is the lessons learned from what did happen. The people who need to do the learning? Both the Scouts and the adults. Someone in this forum posted that as a SM they attended the PLC that they sat back and read a book. I have never been able to do that and feel sure that I'd feel uncomfortable doing so. I have sat back while Scouts have planned things and when it seems that they have left out or forgotten something big, asked opened ended questions. Being very careful not to sound like some kind of a smart Alec. Eamonn

I'm not what might be called "Into" The Titanic. I haven't followed the exploration of the site where it went down and of course I feel for the great loss of life. As a young man I got to know Bill Cook. Bill was a real character. He worked full time for the Scout Association as a Camp Warden in Surrey England. Bill was short, maybe about 5'-4". He had a nose like Bill Clinton and when he spoke he nodded his head. He really liked to talk. In fact at times I tried very hard to avoid him. If I had a key or something that needed to be returned I'd give it to a Scout. Because I knew if Bill caught me, I'd be stuck with him for the next half hour. This might sound like I wasn't being very kind. But the truth is that I really liked Bill. I often thought and looked for reasons why he wanted to talk so much? In the end all I came up with was the fact that he was stuck in this camp site for long periods of time with no one to talk with. Before working for the Scouts Bill had been in the Royal Navy,he'd been a Signal Officer on submarines. He was really fascinated with the sinking of The Titanic. One of Bill's hero's was the Bandmaster. Fact or fiction Bill really held the belief that the band kept playing as the big ship went down and it played Nearer My God to Thee. The Catholic church I attend has never had this hymn on the list on any day that I've been at church. I lost contact will Bill a good number of years back. He really knew his way around spars and rope, he gave me a wonderful understanding of pioneering. I don't think of him very often, but this weekend with the media covering 100 year of the sinking. Bill came to my mind. Strange how I do miss him, I learned a lot from him and given half a chance I'd be more than happy to drop that key off one last time and listen to him one last time. Of course that's never going to happen as Bill really is nearer to his God. I have no idea what goes on up in Heaven and even less of an idea if they will let me in. But if they do Bill and I are going to build the biggest bridge ever. Eamonn.

Maybe I'm a slow learner? As a youth I belonged to a Troop that I really believed was using the Patrol Method. We had the Troop broken down into Patrols. Patrols had their own gear /equipment. Patrols camped as Patrols, cooked as Patrols and did just about everything in and as Patrols. The PLC met once a month. The SM laid out what we were going to do and the P/L's relayed the information back to the Scouts in the Patrols. It all worked and worked well. When I became became SM this is what I did. Over time I came to understand that while we had what looked like the Patrol Method in action wasn't really the case. What I really had was a group of P/L's who were just being used as carrier pigeons. Just about everything was coming from the top down and the Scouts (Patrols) Had little or no say in what we were doing and how we went about doing it. Over the next few years, I became more of a coach. This worked well, the P/L's were more involved and were taking a more active role. But when I took a long hard look at things I seen that I was still calling the plays and that there were a lot of areas where I just was unwilling to even try new ideas very often falling back on the idea /fact that we'd always done it such and such a way and it worked, so there was no reason to change. Handing over the running of the Troop to the PLC was really hard for me, changing things that I had always done was even harder. There were times when we had a really outstanding PLC. A group of guys who wanted to take the world by the tail and shake the heck out of it. There were also times when it seemed that nothing was working. The temptation for me to jump in and take over was really great. I'll admit that during these times I did step back in and take over the role of the coach. I questioned if I'd done my job of training the P/L's? When something had gone really wrong I at time found myself brow beating the PLC. This is never a good idea. What did work was me taking the time and looking for opportunities to work one on one with individual P/L's. Taking the time to ask questions and maybe plant seeds. The number of times when things were not going the way that I liked were many. I think that I have permanent scars on the inside of my cheek from biting it. It would be so easy to take over, sort things out and get the job done Eamonn's way. But I found that me going for a little walk worked out a lot better. I also found that well ran reflections allowed everyone to see what worked and what didn't and the time taken to do these worked to improve things far better than any ranting and raving I might have done. As for a set time to get to where you want to be? I think it's a little like the Oath and Law, just when you think your there either something goes wrong or when you take the time for a long hard and truthful look at what your doing? You see that you can set the bar a little higher. With such a small group, I kinda think I'd toss all the good books and stuff that is out available out the window. You have a Troop that is one Patrol. In my book you don't need a SPL. What you need more than anything is more members. I'd start by having each of the Patrol pick a role in the Patrol. Have a P/L a A/P/L a Scribe, a QM and a Historian. Every six months switch. Challenge the Scouts to bring a pal. Work with the Scouts on all the requirements needed for First Class. Set realistic goals for membership growth. Right now you have six active younger Scouts. Chances are that you might lose a couple of them? So maybe a goal for the end of the year might be eight active Scouts? When you get to a number that your comfortable with? Twelve or fourteen split the group into two Patrols. Have them do things as Patrols. Camp, cook, eat and so on. Resist any and every temptation to ever let them work as one Patrol. Sure it might mean that one Patrol camps with five members and the other camps with just two. But keeping and allowing the Patrols to form and be the most important part of the Troop is really vital. When you get to having four Patrols you might want to think about a SPL? Your most important role is to pay attention to each individual Scout. Help him to help himself. We talk a lot about Troop loyalty and all that good stuff, but Scouts are very loyal to people that they know care about them. Use this loyalty to help build the Troop. Having the group that you have now master and be good at the basic Scout skills will pay dividends in the years to come. But remember all work and no play will lose Scouts faster than anything. Look for and find out of the box ways of doing things. A stop watch adds a lot to a knot race. Finding buried treasure on a hike. Taking photos on a nature hike. Finding old log books from back in the day and start adding to them. (The Scouts not you!) It doesn't have to be perfect, in 50 years time when someone looks at them they will be more interested in what you did more then the penmanship. There is nothing wrong with having the Scouts plan fun trips. Maybe this summer there is an amusement park close by or a water park. Maybe there is a Venture Crew that needs younger Scouts that they can teach some of the more adventurous activities. While you can start thinking and setting the stage for the Patrol Method and this is a good thing. - Right now your bigger problem is having the Scouts to fill the Patrols. With a fair wind and a lot of good luck I'd guess it's going to take about four or five years to get the numbers up to about twenty-four. Then you can rally start making all the bits that you have in place come together. Every few months you need to take the time to look at where you are how you are doing, be honest. Look at your goals both long term and short term. When your feeling down in the dumps, it's worth thinking in percentages. A Troop of sixty Scouts has an event with thirty Scouts turning up. Thats fifty percent. You have an event with six? That's one hundred percent. Back when I joined Boy Scouts as a little fellow in England one of the Scout Laws was "A Scout smiles and whistles through all difficulties." It's impossible to smile and whistle at the same time. I know that but here I am some forty odd years later -Still trying. I think much the same thing can be said about the Patrol Method. You might never get to be exactly where you think it should be or where the books say you ought to be, but it's a lot of fun trying. Eamonn

"Of course, I understand what you are looking for" Finding a way, system? Call it what you will that measures Troop success is not easy. For the people who work with the individual Scouts, they see and can experience the things that might seem small or of no consequence. - The great joy a little fellow has when he masters a skill, that warm fuzzy feeling after a night sitting around the embers of a dying camp fire. Others want to see membership. - How many Scouts in the Troop as the yard stick. For others it's the Badge count. As District Chairman and as District Commissioner, I, most of the time didn't know what was happening in a Troop or a Pack. I did get reports that showed Unit Growth and Advancement reports. While most of the time these reports were of little real interest, they did at times signal if things were not going that well. One of the most difficult things that most unit leaders fail to grasp is that they are the stewards for the unit. While of course we live day by day and hope that we make a positive impact on the Scouts we have today. The role of a unit leader is also to ensure that the unit will be around long after he or she is gone and will have the same impact on kids that he or she has yet to met, may never meet and maybe aren't even born yet. Ea.

"If the great Commonwealth of PA wants to balance their budget, all they have to do is start writing tickets for speeding" Please don't give them any ideas. - I travel the pike a lot and don't need any tickets.Heck with the cost of tolls I couldn't afford anything more. While I much prefer my own car, with the cost of gas I've started using a State car and allowing the State to pick up all the costs. Other than moaning and groaning when I fill up, the increase hasn't changed my driving habits that much. I'm thinking that maybe I'll go green and not mow my grass as often. Ea.

Every place I go it seems that after the weather the big topic on everyones mind is the price of gas. Last time I filled up it was 3.99.9. The day after it went down four cents. How big an impact has the price of gas had on the Scouting programs in your area? Ea.

The Sea Scout Ship is chartered by our local Elks. When we first were offered a boat the donor wanted to take the tax advantages of donating to a charity. The Elks said that while they were happy for us to meet at their hall and were willing to support us, they wanted no part in owning any boats. As they are in the center of out small town they really wouldn't have any place to store or keep boats. The Council also said no. It seems that the SE we had at that time had run into problems in another Council with people dumping boats that were just junk. I went about starting a 501 ©. Even with my CPA not charging for his services it ended up costing about $1,600.00. At the time we were from my point of view between a rock and a hard place. I found out later that there were other Friends of ... who would have been willing to accept the donations and then allow us to use them but this might have caused a problem with me insuring them. All of this happened at a time when the SE and little old me were not seeing eye to eye. In fact I was really very upset with him. (Soon after he read the writing on the wall and moved on.) As District Chair I had organized and ran a golf outing with the money going to the District. -Which of course was handed over to the Council. I decided that I'd still run the outing but use the Friends of Ship ... The outing had games of chance, alcohol. Along with the golf and a prime rib dinner. It was held at the club where I'm a member and I was willing to pay for any losses that might happen. Everything was about the same as when I'd done the same thing in the name of the District. The SE called me and informed me that we were not allowed to go ahead with the outing. I informed him that he was full of it and should go jump in a lake. We were not getting anywhere on the phone, so we met for lunch at the club. I explained that our Friends of was no different than a church having bingo as a fund raising event. He reluctantly agreed with me. He went on to say that he thought it was wrong of me to offer an event that people seen as a District event. In an effort to be fair I said that everything would remain unchanged, but we would donate half of what we made to the Council. Which I did. If the Council or the Elks had allowed us to use their numbers to accept donations none of this would have ever been a problem. I now have half a dozen fairly decent boats on my property. They belong to the Friends of Ship.. and are insured and maintained with funds from that account. Still the Elks are our CO. Unless a unit is expecting some large donations, I really think that setting up a 501© is not worth while. Ea.

I was for my sins which are many the Leader of a large Troop of about 96. To be very honest it did get to be too much for me and we did split, which didn't work out very well. It's hard to know what might have happened if we had remained as we were? But when Scouting became another full time job, something had to happen. In a big Troop it is really important that the Patrols and the Patrol method is used. Regular meetings of the PLC and ensuring that everyone is on the same page is essential. I never worried about the "Struggle to find enough adult leaders for trips and meeting supervision" That's why we have P/L's. Our biggest problems were equipment and transportation. The equipment was mostly covered by giving each Patrol its own equipment. Clearly marked as being their's. We also had a wonderful QM He had been a store man in the Air Force and while at times hard to deal with he did earn the respect of all the Scouts. Getting Scouts to where they need to be? Really is not that much different for a large Troop then a small Troop. Most Scouts have parents and they need to step up to the plate. We found that renting vans for the equipment worked out better for us. I'm a little lost about: " Managing SMCs and BORs for many advancing scouts." And "Managing an overwhelming number of advancements."? No one expects that this is all going to happen on the same night as the Troop meets and BOR's and SMC can be held at camp when your away. If it really is too much? Then maybe it's better to split. Eamonn. And

I think that I can and do see where National is coming from. I don't claim to know very much about liability. We don't have any , as far as I know of these units in the area where I live. We have in the past had a few spring up, but when the handful of people who were around that started the unit left the unit fell apart. The units that will suffer because of this change might not have as easy a time finding a CO as it seems. While some community organizations are very pro BSA some have individuals at the local level who for whatever reason want no part of the BSA. In my area nearly all of the units have been around for a long time. mostly with the same CO. Like it or not most of the CO's don't play any part in what the units are doing and the idea that they play an active part is laughable. If there is a weak link in the way that things are set up it is with these CO's. My thinking is that when these Friends of units can't recharter there will be a scramble to find an organization that will if nothing else allow the unit to use its name. We harp on about how the CO owns the unit and how the CO can do this that or the other. When we all know that in most cases this really is all twaddle. Maybe these changes will open a dialog of and about what's happening in the real world? Ea.

As posted I'm not into guns and firearms. Unfortunately a couple of years back (On Father's Day) I was asleep when the phone rang at 2:00 AM. It was my son. I didn't get to the phone in time so he left a message, saying "Dad I've shot myself, the ambulance is coming." As a rule I don't do anything after I've got up till I've had two cups of coffee. However a message like this one vacated my need for coffee. I was dressed and in my car in less then a minute. He'd bought a Glock with his tax refund and when he'd moved into his own house. I will not have a gun in my house. It seems that he was emptying the weapon and kinda like the people in the news stories, there was still one in the chamber. His went off, the bullet went in just above his left wrist and came out just above his elbow. He is left handed. He was flown by helicopter and was very lucky that the bullet managed to not hit anything important. He has a nasty scar and has learned a very expensive lesson. Ensuring that firearms are completely empty before putting them down or trying to do anything with them is so very important. When I arrived at his house there were two PA State policemen there. I knew them from me working at the jail. They gave me the gun. I didn't give it back to my son till he found a buyer. Ea.

Sorry Basementdweller, I can't but help thinking that your being a little harsh. I agree with the yardsticks that you are using and Lord knows I think at times some people just don't get Advancement and where it fits in. But being able to see how many nights at camp a Lad has does for me show a lot. Kids vote with their feet. If the program was a stinker? I bet they would stay home and not attend the events. Both you and the Turtle need to take a minute and give yourselves a big pat on the back for all your doing for the kids in the areas where you live. Ea.

It's these moments that make what we do all seem worth while. Ea.

Remington shotguns, rifles claim pattern of inadvertent discharges. This was a news story on NBC. I'm not a gun lover, but do worry if we have Scouts who might be harmed. Welcome your thoughts and opinions. Ea.