Eagletrek

Ready to sew my patches on my "new centennial" scout shirt and I've got a question as to where the unit numerals are really supposed to go. Since there is no definitive inspection sheet yet available, can someone tell me if the unit numerical designation should be placed with its bottom edge along the upper edge of the pocket flap or against the bottom edge of the council flap? Please don't refer me to the many photos of the new style shirt on the web. They don't answer the mail in my case. In every photo I've seen so far, the numerical desination seems to bridge the gap between the top edge of the pocket flap and the bottom of the council flap without much if any gap in between them. If I properly place my council flap with its upper edge along the shoulder seam and place the bottom edge of the numerical designation along the upper edge of the pocket flap I end up with a gap of about 2 1/4 inches between the bottom of the council flap and the top edge of the numerical designation. This doesn't look right at all. This problem is the same on both the supplex nylon and poplin versions of the shirt. The photos I've seen so far don't show any gap that large between the top of the numerals and the bottom of the council patch. Help!!!!!! I'm about to impale myself with a needle and thread!!!!!!!!! PS Maybe my council needs a beefier flap!!!!!!!!!!

Membership has its privileges!!!

Shortridge I'm glad we agree! As I've previously stated, I don't agree with having to show the "blue card" all over again either. I'm also glad to see that you agree that the "art" of recording keeping should be learned and fostered throughout the program. I believe I recommended this in my previous post.

First let me state that I'm Roman Catholic, pro-life (all four aspects of it), and a registered Republican. That said, I have to agree with Beavah and John in KC on this one. Beavah states: "If I support a president who claims to be personally anti-abortion, but who has condoned the kidnap and torture of innocent men, have I really done the right thing? I admit I've known some anti-abortion politicians who were dumber than a peck of turnips in the sun. Is electin' them really helpin' anyone? Aren't I responsible for the harm they do? Yah, complimicated. I decided that neither my barber nor my secretary really has much ability to affect abortions. Neither does POTUS. Manipulatin' the makeup of the courts is a fool's errand. Abortion is a question that can only be answered by the voice of the people themselves. The job of a proper Christian is to win hearts, not win votes." I couldn't agree more. We've had plenty of pro-life presidents but has it stopped abortion? If we outlaw it tomorrow, will women cease having them? While most like to think that outlawing the act will solve the problem, I tend to disagree. It's not a matter of law but a matter of the heart. Lastly, as John in KC states: "As Beavah said, one mind, one heart at a time, through prayer and conversation. One side comment: Being pro-life does mean setting in place the various support systems (health, education, training, jobs) which enable Mom and Dad to rear the kids they sire. Even there, though, we can only spend a tax dollar once, so we must pick wisely." Once again, I couldn't agree more. One heart at a time not through the imposition of law but through a change of heart by way of prayer.

Shortridge states, "it might be unrealistic to expect a 17-year-old to still have the piece of paper he got for completing Swimming at age 11." Why do we always underestimate the ability of our kids to be orderly and maintain things??? Maybe because they haven't been taught these skills/traits by their parents!?! I don't think it's unrealistic for a scout to properly maintain information related to his advancement in the program. Aren't we trying to develop good citizens? Don't we expect good citizens to maintain good records? Why shouldn't a parent of a scout teach this to his son? I believe scouting attempts to get a boy to understand the need for good recordkeeping and information management all the way along the trail to Eagle. Numerous achievements in scouting from the Cub Scouting through Boy Scouting require the scout to track information and data. The Personal Management merit badge, an Eagle required badge, requires the scout to learn recordkeeping and manage information. So why don't we expect our scouts to maintain their "own copy" of their adavancement records? As I've stated before, I don't believe a scout should be denied his EBOR if he doesn't have his "blue cards" since it's not a National policy/regulation/rule but what's wrong with encouraging our young folks to learn the art of record keeping and information management????

While it may not be a National policy/regulation/rule, I have to agree with RS that each scout should maintain his own copy of his advance record by maintaining their own blue cards and white cards. It teaches a good lesson in record keeping and that will pay dividends for the scout as he reaches adulthood. That said, I have to agree with John in KC that if it is not a National policy/rule/regulation, then I don't think the scout should be denied his EBOR for not having them. OBTW, my sons have started their own advancement record in Cub Scouting by maintaing all their advancement and arrow point cards as well as other program related cards in a binder with baseball card holders. While not required, it will be something that they may be able to show and share with their sons in the future. (This message has been edited by Eagletrek)

It's a funny thing but I never had to force my kids to eat broccoli. They love it and so do I! No, really!!!!!! The same was true with Scouting. My dad introduced me to Scouting but never forced me to stay. He told me all the great things the program offered and as a city kid (New York) I really looked forward to escaping the city and heading to the woods. He and my mom encouraged me and took an "active" and "sincere" interest in what I did. I think that's an important aspect to showing a boy what he does in Scouting really matters. I've handled my sons the way my dad did with me. I introduced my oldest son to Cub Scouting a few years ago and told him that the decision to stay with the program was his and I'd never force him to stay but I'd support him all the way whichever decision he made. He took to the program like a fish to water. The toughest challenge I had was telling my youngest son that he'd have to wait a year before he could join his brother in the program. As with my mom and dad, my wife and I actively encourage and support our boys within the program. I was my oldest son's Den Leader from Tigers thru Bear at which time I was drafted as Cubmaster, a position in which I'm still serving. My wife started by supporting various committees such as Pinewood Derby, Blue and Gold, and Cross-Over. Within a year she was the pack's Advancement Chairperson. We've kinda' made Scouting a family affair.

Well Kudu once again you miss the point. I never said that scouts shouldn't do lite-weight treking. That said, I think that scouts should also be allowed to "plop" camp when they desire. If done correctly, both can be done using the Patrol Method. I'll never limit the spectrum of camping for my scouts. From your posts, it appears that one cannot properly execute the Patrol Method and to some degree the program if they don't go lite-weight. On that point, I guess I'll just have to disagree with you. Back to the OP's question; Yes, Patrol Boxes work well for me and my boys. Do we always use them? No. They're only used when the situation/event calls for them. OBTW, I'd love it if every camping trip we ventured out on took us to those majestic places potrayed in the Scout Handbook but being from Central Texas that isn't always possible.(This message has been edited by Eagletrek)

Hey GW hang in there. I'm on my way to translate and I'm bringing my crayons!!!!!

Amen to that!!!!!

Forgive me from deviating off the topic but is there a "legal" strip for Leave No Trace? I ask, because during a recent event I attended, I spied someone wearing a LNT strip above his BSA strip.

Hey Kudu I did read the article on lightweight camping but I didn't see where it was an authoritative scouting document. Now for a logic check. 1. You say, "The point of Lightweight Patrol Camping is NOT to buy TWO sets of equipment, but to use good quality "backpacking" equipment for "plop" camping." Who says? Can't a scout/leader have various kinds of camping equipment to fit his certain camping needs? Can't a patrol have a two burner Coleman gas stove while at summer camp to prepare their own meals vs. using two or three Whisper-Lites? Better yet, can't they use a Sheep Herder stove? Silly me, why should I be discussing preparing meals at summer camp when now most folks don't cook and eat in dining halls. If we're really concerned about the Patrol Method, let's burn down every dining hall before we burn our Patrol Boxes. When at summer camp why not sleep on a cot in a wall tent? Am I concerned about how much I'll have to carry on my back the next day? I don't think so. In the summer camp "camping environment" the boys are there to get the most out of the program offered and to have fun. Now if we're off on a backwoods trek for a couple of days, let's haul out the ultra-lite stuff and leave those creature comforts we use for "plop" camping home. 2. You address "the relationship of the Patrol Method to weight." Please explain to me how they are related. Are you telling me that you can't employ the Patrol Method effectively if you camp "heavy?" I don't buy that. In fact, when I was a kid, my troop was very effective at employing the Patrol Method, in fact much more so than I see in most troops today, and we were far from being lite-weight campers most of the time. We gathered wood, fired up our sheep herder stoves, prepared our own meals, used and maintained our patrol boxes, properly cleaned our gear, etc., etc., etc.. We did all of this using boy-led patrols while following the duty roster we developed. Did we ever go on treks? You bettcha'!!!!! Did we drag all that heavy gear? No. We took what was appropriate and we employed the same patrol method that we did while camping heavy. 3. Lastly, you state, "The heavier the equipment, the closer together the Patrols will be forced to camp and the more distracted the Patrols will be by outside forces." I don't buy this either. Some adequate prior planning, you know it's a "Be Prepared" kinda thang, should allow you to move your "heavy stuff" easily enough to give the patrols as much separation as possible. I don't know how big your troop is but most scout camps today don't have adequate room to provided the desired distance between patrols. When camping at a local scout camp you've got to request the largest campsite and do the best you can as far as separation of the patrols is concerned. The "footprint" of a Patrol Box is not going to weigh to heavily in how far the patrols will be separated. Now when out on a backwoods trek and mother nature is kind with the space she provides, by all means use the max distance to keep your patrols separated and most definately use all the lite-weight gear you have available. Ahhhhhhh, remember the days we could really be lite-weight by not having to drag around a stove and its fuel????? Like I said before, I like to experience the entire spectrum of camping; from heavy to lite. That said, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this is the way that they have to experience camping but please don't tell me that guys who may camp heavy occassionally can't effectively employ the Patrol Method.

Just be careful as you live real close to the "mothership!!!"

BLUF: Patrol Boxes have their place in the full spectrum of camping. Kudu, get a grip!!!! There's nothing wrong with "plop" camping as there is nothing wrong with "lightweight" or "extreme-lightweight" camping. I think it's great to share all styles of camping with my boys and show them the skills and equipment involved in both. I want my boys to be able to have the skills to bake in a dutch oven as well as to know how to boil water to re-hydrate their trail meal. I want them to know how to erect a canvas wall tent and/or patrol fly as well as knowing how to set up a bivy shelter. There's merit in knowing how to do things along the full spectrum of camping. Years ago, scouts wouldn't have needed a Wilderness Survival merit badge as those skills were a fundamental part of the scouting program. Be Prepared!!!!!! All that said, I love my Patrol Box. I designed it but had a real carpenter build it. Yes, it's heavy, but everyone who has seen it, wants one. It's 12 years old and looks as good as it did the day it was made. Made of 3/4 inch plywood, it sports three separate storage areas (large, medium, and small), has two drawers, and a drop down-laminate cutting surface. I love to use it when I "plop" camp but I also pass it by when I'm headed out on a backpacking trip. Diversity, try it!!!!!!!!(This message has been edited by Eagletrek)

While I agree that Brady's antics aren't in accord with the Scout Oath and Law I'm not too concerned about him being on the cover as the first thing my boys focus on is "Scouts In Action." They are always wowed by how scouts have come to the aid of their fellow citizens.

Thanks Buffalo Skipper for bringing up the publication "Aids to Scoutmastership." What a great guidebook on the theory of scout training. I really wonder how many folks currently involed in the program have read the publication? Secondly, I wonder how many folks involved in the Wood Badge program have read the publication? Answer "honestly" now!!!!!!! If all folks involved in the scouting program read, comprehended, and followed the intent of this pub, scouting would be much better off, IMHO.

Having recently seen many comments in various threads about sewing issues, I just like to know if sewing is a lost scout art? When I was a scout, in the 60's/70's, I sewed on all my patches except for my council and troop number patch. My mom was kind enough to sew those two patches on but everything else was my responsibility. It wasn't because my mom was lazy; she wanted me to learn a valuable skill which would allow me to repair my uniform and other camping items when I was in the field. Thanks Mom!!!!!! When my sons and I were looking at my old merit badge sash a few weeks ago, I showed them how I sewed on each and every badge. I told them that I expected them to learn how to sew (hand stitch) when they became Boy Scouts. Knowing how to sew; it's a "Be Prepared" kinda' thang!!!!!

Ahhhhh!!!! Finally have some of the "correct-size" new NESA knots. I think I'll hang on to the "over-sized"/"super-sized" NESA square knots I first bought as they may become a collector's item in the future.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! It appears that a tradition has been saved; at least temporarily.

Wow!!!! Sounds expensive. My oldest son attended back-to-back Cub Scout Resident and Webelos Resident Camp this year in Central Texas for a grand total of $200.00 ($95.00 for Cub and $105.00 for Webelos). I grew up in the northeast and know things can be expensive but $250.00 for four days and three nights sounds a little over the top, BTJMHO.

Hey GW!!!!!! Don't include me in your "we" statement. I wasn't screaming about cheap uniforms. Frankly, I thought they were fairly reasonably priced when you considered their cost over time. All I expect the BSA to do is live up to the values that they preach and not buy uniforms from a country that prohibits scouting.

"The time will come in the not too distant future that our fighter jets and bombers and aircraft carriers will be made in China." While I'm almost certain that some of the components are, I'm not ready to bet my paycheck yet. You'd think that BSA would want to resist the temptation of going to the "Dark Side." A few years ago, the US Army, fell off the bus and started to buy uniform components from China to include that famous Black Beret.

One can't predict the future, but my money is that the new uniform will be required by most councils for the national jambo. You can bet that the international jambo contingent will require the new uniform.

GW when were you a scout? Evidently you and I read from a different handbook.

As Irving, Texas is just up the road, how about we all gather at my house with torches and other implements of destruction and march on National Headquarters. On the way, the NESA life-time members can pick-up their new square knot (also made in China) at the Scout Shop in The National Scouting Museum.