EagleInKY

I've always worn mine on the left pock flap, centered. I don't have any others to wear, so not sure about multiple medals. I wear mine to Eagle COHs, Scout Sunday, and events such as that. Typically, I haven't worn it to regular COH or other events (such as District Recognition Dinners, B&G Banquets). But I'm not sure why not - I just never have. Maybe I'll start to. I don't think adults are supposed to wear the MB Sash, at least I never have. Besides, I'm not sure how it would fit around my adult size body now ;-(

Laura - Thanks for the comments/questions. This is good dialog for the forum. Regarding the SM Conference, my point is that these situations should be caught and handled up-front, so that it doesn't become an issue at the SM Conference. I'd much rather have an ASM or myself talk to the boys at camp, recognize the difficiencies of a counselor, and work to resolve them at camp - rather than wait until a SM Conference to ask 'Did you really earn that Mammal Study MB?'. You commented "But if you have a relationship where you can just sit and talk something out with them - most of them will come to their own conclusion that getting 'handed' the badge is not serving anyone. " You are dead-on correct. I would much rather have the boys come to that conclusion, and in the Mammal Study case I mentioned, that is exactly what happened. The boys were as upset as I was about the quality of the counselor. Second, you mention "I have seen troops that 'micro manage' their boys at camp ..." Yes, we micro-manage our 1st year campers. They have no reference point, so we keep a close eye on them. We back off on them the second year (and for that manner, as the week progreses during the first year). They understand the expectations that were set in their first year, and usually bring up the concerns on their own. You asked "how is 'monitoring' their work in this way different from a counselor handing them a requirement or two? " In my opinion, it's very different. Our counselors aren't doing any work for them. They are the quality control mechanism. They also do the camp a service by allowing us to escalate issues appropriately. I should point out that the majority of the badge work that was done at camp was accepted as signed off by the camp counselor. There were only a few, Mammal Study being the most blatant example, where we had to re-inforce or re-do the work. "Is the point of earning a badge and being at camp to LEARN and EXPLORE? I certainly hope so. There's a great little essay by B-P regarding not trying to turn MB into a formal education. His point, as I remember, is that the purpose of MBs is to encourage the boys to branch out and learn new things, but not to become experts. He stated something to the effect that if we expect the training to be the same quality as formal education, we're doing a disservice because SMs are ill-prepared for that kind of work. "We have to remember that there are SOME boys who are motivated by competition and they will push themselves to 'get as many as possible". I agree. Each of our boys pursued the MBs at camp at a different level. Some only earned 2 MBs, while a couple earned 5 or 6. But I don't consider one more successful than the other. The ones that earned 5 or 6 typically took easier MBs while the ones that earned only 2 probably took tougher ones. As long as they're making an effort, I think they're all successful, according to their own level of interest or skills. Thanks again for the comments.

dan - No problem. I certainly believe in being totally open and honest with the boys. That's why I don't think it's been much of an issue. We go into camp with the open and honest about our philosophy. Also, we talk with the boys about it through the week, so they know how the troop's counselor feels about it. There should be no surprises after camp is over. It may have sounded that way from my original post.

dan - I haven't had anyone question it. But, I'm sure I eventually will. Yes, I would tell a scout that, if it were an issue. I know of another troop nearby that did have a scout go to council over an issue with a summer camp MB, and the council sided with the troop. We modeled our approach after theirs, so I hope that we will always be on solid footing. Here's an example - at Summer Camp this past year, the Mammal Study MB counselor was horrible. He was a young CIT, Life Scout, had no training and had the class dumped on him on Sunday. Here's what they did to fulfill a couple of the requirements. Requirement 3c- "From study and reading, write a simple history of one nongame mammal that lives in your area. Tell how this mammal lived before its habitat was affected in any way by man. Tell how it reproduces, what it eats, what eats it, and its natural habitat. Describe its dependency upon plants, upon other animals (including man), and how they depend upon it. Tell how it is helpful or harmful to man. " What they did - He asked the class these questions about a few different mammals. Out of a group of about 20 or so Scouts, probably 4 or 5 answered the questions. No one wrote anything, or did any research on their own. Requirement 5 - Work with your counselor, select and carry out one project that will influence the numbers of one or more mammals. What they did - He took them over to a trail, had them throw some sticks down the side of it. He said it was "erosion control" and that many mammals would benefit from it. It turned into a stick throwing contest, where some were tossing huge logs down the hillside. Okay, so as SM I confronted (1) the counselor, (2) the ecology director and (3) the camp director. Both the ecology director and the camp director agreed that there was a problem, and that they would address it before the next session. But they did nothing for our week. Our troop MBC that was assigned to Mammal Study gave the boys from our troop partials. They did a real service project on the next campout that did help mammals. They also each wrote a report on a mammal, according to the MB requirements. So, according to Bob White, my autocratic ways are ruining our troop. (Putting some words in his mouth, I know). Sorry, but I don't see it that way at all. Our methods are insuring that the boys are meeting the requirements. It's the unqualified counselor that has the potential to mess things up.

2CD - While I agree hypothetically, I think it's putting a lot on the scout to "fess up" at a Scoutmaster's conference. I like being up-front with the boys prior to camp, thus making sure everyone understands the process going into it. We've had very few questions. As for being bullheaded, I don't see it that way at all. In fact, I leave it up to the troop-assigned MBC's to sign off on the work. As SM, I try to stay out of that completely. If one of our counselors signs off on the MB, I don't question it. I've even had some that I thought "went easy" on the boys, but it was their decision.

I did something cool for our boys last year. They had all been together since Tigers or Wolves, and were always a patriotic bunch. I took pictures of them through the years and inter-mixed them with some patriotic Scout pictures and put it to the music "Proud to be an American", which I knew several of them loved. It was a moving ceremony. After the music, they brought up the flags and led the Pledge. It was neat.

I gotta agree with FOG on this one. As SM, I have the OBLIGATION to make sure scouts are getting quality counselors. Letting them get rubber stamped, especially on the major MBs, is wrong for them and for Scouting. Eagle69 - I'm with you on the distrist list of counselors. I've never seen one around these parts. The rulebook guys won't like this, but this is what we do at summer camp. We assign an adult (Committtee member or an ASM) to be our "counselor" for each MB that is taken. It is their responsibility to monitor what is being taught and whether the boys are really doing the work. They can do this by attending some of the sessions, talking to the boys, or talking to the counselor. At the end of the camp, we receive the signoff sheets from the Camp Counselors. Our adult counselor determines whether the requirements are "complete", "incomplete" or "needs review". We inform the scouts at the next troop meeting the status of their badge work. It is up to them to work with the troop counselor to wrap up the work. I think this is the fairest approach, and it helps the boys learn more effectively. BTW, our council camp does not do blue cards at summer camp. They have a camp MB form that they return. I think this is intentional so that it is not the official blue card.

Congratulations and welcome to the club from a member of the class of 1981. It's already been stated, but the words from the Eagle Charge still ring in my ears, "you are a marked man". Everyone will expect the best from you, so keep up the great work in everything you do.

I just posted this on another thread, but thought it worth repeating here. Another knots game - Instead of the normal "tie a square knot", have them tie knots based upon their purpose. We just did this Monday night. They had a good time, and hopefully learned more about how knots are used. For examples: - Tie the rescue knot (Bowline) - Tie the knot used to join ropes of different sizes (sheet bend) - Tie the knot used to start a diagonal lashing (Timber hitch). BTW, every one of our guys did a clove hitch on this one. - Tie the "first aid knot" (Square knot) - Tie the knot that's great for tent tie-downs because it can be adjusted (taut-line hitch). You get the idea. I think they learned from it. BTW - I love the Jeopardy idea. We'll have to try that one.

Another knots game - Instead of the normal "tie a square knot", have them tie knots based upon their purpose. We just did this Monday night. They had a good time, and hopefully learned more about how knots are used. For examples: - Tie the rescue knot (Bowline) - Tie the knot used to join ropes of different sizes (sheet bend) - Tie the knot used to start a diagonal lashing (Timber hitch). BTW, every one of our guys did a clove hitch on this one. - Tie the "first aid knot" (Square knot) - Tie the knot that's great for tent tie-downs because it can be adjusted (taut-line hitch). You get the idea. I think they learned from it.

Dan, For it to happen, you're going to have to drive it. But be careful not to dismantle your boy-lead model. That is much more difficult to build. I would strive to make it happen THROUGH your boy leaders. JLT would be a great place to kick-start the process. Integrate some training into the JLT model. I'd love to hear more as it progresses. This is something I'm working on as well.

Follow Me Boys is due to be released on DVD February 3rd. Amazon is pre-selling it for $13.99.

Big Dog - You forgot to mention the cool threads. Oh well, at least we don't wear the old knee socks with the garters and tabs any more. ;-)

It was a good year for our new troop. A new 7x14 Cargo Trailer is parked in my driveway and I'm slowly getting my garage back (1/2 the money for the trailer was donated). The boys built a new Klondike sled (materials donated by another one of Santa's helpers). And, we purchased some new tents and other camping equipment with our Popcorn profits. Thank you Santa!

Accoring to the G2SS - "Wolf and Bear Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camp Schooltrained leadership and managed by the council. "A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos dentroop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. I copied this from the online G2SS on the scouting.org website.

Laurie - A few years ago I took over a pack that was losing membership at a rapid pace. Recruitment was one of our top prioriites. We were geographically a little different than you, serving one area of a county with one elementary school. We were also the only Cub Scout pack associated with the area. What we did was a heavy recruiting emphasis on the 1st-3rd grades. We went to the school open houses and set a display up right by the front door. We did it for the K-1 Open House and the 2-3 Open House. We had pictures, patches and - of course - Pinewood Derby cars on display. We also had a couple of the Cub Scouts there in uniform. We had a bunch kids come up to look over the stuff. We gave them the normal propaganda - A mini-Boy's Life, a publication put out by national regarding the values of Scouting, and an information about our pack. Several of the parents mentioned being involved with Scouts or even being an Eagle Scout. I made sure to note the ones that seemed interested and made a follow-up call to them before Roundup. I had my Tiger Cub leaders lined up before walking into Roundup. The only only surprise was getting 20 Tigers instead of the usual 6-8! Of course, all of this was preceded by us getting our own house in order. I took 9 months of getting the program straightened out before doing that. We wanted a quality program to be in place before we brought in this bunch of new kids. There was still plenty of issues when they arrived, but we were better off than the previous year.

Growing up, our troop went out of council every year. That was because our council's camp was in horrible condition and had many quality issues. Yes, the council wasn't happy with us. But our philosophy was that we had to give the best program we could for our Scouts, and that meant going to a neighboring council. Now, our council has built a great camp (in the late 80's), and we've gone there every year since it opened. My philosophy - it's up to the boys. They need to do what's best for them. If your council has a good camp, I encourage troops to support it. But if your council's camp has problems, having "defectors" may be the only way to bring the issue to a head.

Acco - Sorry about that. I lumped yours and NJS comments together. Looking back, that was in error. My only counter-point to your comment was that most 11 year old kids are going to get nervous in front of adults if they feel that they are being "judged", even if they're just shooting the breeze. I think the points that 2CD & DS made are quite valid - "A little inherent intimidation on the part of new scouts is not a bad thing." As Paul pointed out, overcoming obstacles are some of the great lessons in life. The next point for me regarding that is to help convince/reassure the CM that it's okay for them to be nervous, and accept that as part of the deal. I think it gets back to the thoughts on some of the other threads relating to the headlong rush for advancement. Everyone wants everything to be quick and easy for the boys. But it's not. Giving the boys the chance to learn and progress at their own pace is the key to quality advancment (IMO). Laura, you brought up a good point regarding training. We had an overview of what BOR's are (and aren't) back when we started last year. But, I don't know how much of that stuck. With a new additions on the Committee coming soon, we should probably have a BOR training session for the committee.

Sorry NJS & Acco, You're off the mark on this one. The BORs are not the inquisition that you accused us of. While I'm not present for them, I know that they follow some of the standard scripts that are available on the net. They follow the typical format, a few icebreakers, followed by some talk about what they've been doing, what could we do better, etc. They are not re-tests. So, get your facts straight before you make accusations. Second, I've had a long relationship with the guys. We've been togetether since Tigers or Wolves (4-5+ years). So, they're pretty comfortable with me. But, when they go in to the BOR, they're in front of Johnny's dad and Billy's mom. It's a little different. Plus, as molscouter pointed out, they're outnumbered. Eagledad, molscouter, ds - You got at the heart of the question. Even as adults, we get nervous when put in new situations, or situations where we feel like we're being judged. It's a lot to put on a 10-11 year old. I'm of the opinion that the first one is going to be hard, no matter what, so let's try to make the best of it. Having them do it as Webelos just moves it up sooner, and maybe scares them more. I like the idea of having some of the older Scouts talk to them before hand, and assure them that it's not an inquisition. Then, try to keep other Scouts from intimidating them as well.

FS - You make a good point. Trying to squelch negative rumors is important. That's one of my concerns about talking about it to the Webelos, that may just fan the flame of their concerns. In our case, there shouldn't have been any bad rumors, since we were a new troop. However, I'm sure the boys could have heard something from friends who are in other troops. As for the boy who froze, he gets very nervous whenever he has to speak to anyone - especially adults. He's slowly getting more comfortable in our SM conferences, but he's got a ways to go. He called me the other day to ask something, and it took him forever to get his question out. He was stuttering so bad I could feel his persperation through the phone! So, I think he could have frozen up no matter how much he was prepared. I was relieved when he made it through his 2nd Class BOR a few weeks ago.

One of the challenges we had this year with starting a new troop was coaching the boys through what a Board of Review would be like. I tried to prepare them for it, but they still were all pretty intimidated. We had one scout vaper lock in the BOR, so it had to be postponed. But that was only 1 out of 9 Scouts that had problems, and he did fine on his second attempt. So, in my opinion, they generally went well. Now I have the Cubmaster of our "feeder Pack" who is concerned and wants to make the process better. (He has a FY Scout in the Troop). He wants to introduce BORs in Webelos. He sees this as a way of getting them exposure to the process in a less threatening way. The Pack Committee (which I still participate in) tried to squelch the idea, but he is still encouraging it. I've tried to stay out of it and let the Pack take care of it, but I feel I may need to step in. I have pushed the "you can't introduce additional requirements", and he backed down to calling them "mock" BORs. Bottom line - I don't think they'll do it. The Den Leaders and Pack Committee don't support it. However, I'm interested in finding out how you've introduced BORs to your new Scouts. Are there some good methods of making them feel a little more at ease? Is this a good thing for the Den Chief to work with them on in Webelos?

Happy Birthday DS - I hope Santa brings you a good opportunity soon. YIS, John

We're a new troop (7 first year scouts, 2 second year). Here's our stats: How many boys registered? 9 How many boys active? 9 How many Patrols? 2 Does your troop go to summer camp in or out of Council? In council Does your troop go to Dist/Council Camporees? Yes, if/when they have them. We're doing Klondike in a couple of weeks. Does your troop support FOS? Yes, but not coerced. Does your troop sell Popcorn? If not, what are your fundraisers? Popcorn yes. We've also done a food booth at a community festival and we are planning a spaghetti supper. 1/4 of all profits are given back to the boys (in proportion to their participation) in the form of a credit for camping/activity fees. Does your troop use NSP, FCFY method? We're too new too say regarding NSP. We're discussing it. As for FCFY, we provide a program which affords the scout the opportunity to advance at this rate. But we don't force it. Does your troop have a Venture Patrol? No, too new Does your troop have a feeder pack? Yes How does your troop recruit non-Cub Scouts? We don't Has your troop seen your Unit Commissioner in the past 6 months? Who??? Is your Unit Commissioner helpful or a pain? Unit commiss... what's that? Does your troop leaders attend Roundtable? I do (SM), sometimes others do as well. How many members are on your troop committee? 9, one from each family. Is your troop boy led? To an extent. We're moving there as quickly as we can.

SA - LOL! I go on a business trip of two days, take a laptop and small carryon. My family of 4 goes to her parents for one night, and we can fill a dumpster with all we take. I can't imagine her packing for Philmont!

I don't disagree with you Paul. And I have to admit to being guilty of making it too easy on boys as well. That's something I'm trying to work on myself. Back to my question, does that mean Summer Camp MBs are not valid? (Not being argumentative, just trying to get insight). -John