EagleInKY

Eamonn Your original thread has been hijacked by an, albeit good, discussion regarding Den Leader responsibilities. Nevertheless, I'll give you a thought or two. We're a small, new troop (9 boys). Every family has at least one adult volunteer (either SM, ASM or MC). Our monthly committee meetings include the ASM. We do that for communications purposes, and so that everyone has a voice. My opinion is that Committee members need to be there, the Scoutmaster needs to be there (I know some disagree) and the ASMs are optional. Most come because they want to know what is going on and express their opinions. As for the troop meetings, I am the adult in charge (working with the boy leaders to run the meeting, of course). The ASMs assist as I ask them to - teaching a skill, assisting a patrol, overseeing a game, etc. We typically decide these in our PLC planning, as we plan a month in advance.

Good idea to train as much ahead of time... but there's no training like reality. They'll mostly learn as they are doing it. Using your PLs and SPL to train, when possible, is good. If you're guys are like mine, they are all learning the first time. This year, i plan to use them to do the majority of the teaching. You can certainly work JLT principle in throughout the year. I often try to use little leadership lessons. They may come in the instructional part of the meeting, the patrol competition, or the SM Minute. There are lots of opportunities to teach the principles. But most of them won't get it, until JLT (or in some cases, their 2nd or 3rd JLT). ;-)

I think the proper answer is that - while you can kill a person with a rifle or shotgun - the point of the MB is to learn how to handle the equipment correctly so that you can not only improve your ability, but do so in a safe manner. As for boxing & karate, the problem with the sports is that - even when following the rules - a person can be killed (can you say "Duk Koo Kim"?). I'm not sure why fencing isn't lumped into the same barrel. Maybe because it's seen as a more "highbrow" sport??? Just my thoughts... maybe someone else has some historical info...

SM41 - Your last post came in while I was typing mine. Rotating PL's is not a bad idea. In that way, you are working kind of like an NSP, as I suggested. I agree that over-ambitious adult leaders is the biggest challenge to the boy-led transition. I have one set of parents that are not in-synch yet. That is because of their boy and his problems with peer leadership. Other than that, I just try to remind them when they are doing something that the boys should do. This weekend will be a great test for us. It's our first campout since shifting from more adult-led to boy-led. I would say that we started out being 80-20 (adult-led to boy-led) and migrated to 60-40 through the year. Now I'm essentially turning the tables, trying to be 60-40 (boy-led to adult-led). With the goal being 80-20 boy-led by summer camp. (I don't think you ever get to 100%, probably somewhere in the 90s).

Mark made me think of a couple of more points. Hope you're not getting tired of my writing, but this is "close to home" right now. In fact, I just gave a presentation at Pow wow on starting a troop from your Webelos den. 7 leaders (Webelos or Cubmaster) were there, all of whom are planning on doing this in the next year. Whenever we "act" as SPL, we try to point it out to the boys. I know I don't do it every time, but I try to whenever possible. Especially when it's something new or different. I'll say "I'll do it this time, but in the future you'll need the SPL to do it". Also, we just did JLT a few weeks ago. I think doing it 6-8 months out is pretty good timing. By then they'll have some experiences that they can relate the JLT to.

I agree FS. When I said our troop was "hatless", I only meant that we don't require headgear. For example, when we have our official uniform inspection in a couple of weeks, headgear is not a requirement. And, when we take our "official" photo, no one will be wearing a hat. With that said, some of our boys do wear headgear from time to time. I usually wear the campaign hat, except in the summer, when it is just too hot. I also sometimes wear a baseball cap. Other than that, the official insignia guide prevails. Well, as I mentioned, we do have the "troop rope" hanging from their belt. ;-)

Congratulations on starting the new troop. I wish you the best of luck. We started a new troop last April and I'm well aware of the challenges and benefits of starting from scratch. Personally, my recommendation would be to slow down a little. You don't have to have patrols, PL, SPL, and everything from the get-go. Allow your troop to take shape gradually. More than likely, the shock of changing from Webelos to Scouting is going to be enough as it is. We did similar to you, the first few weeks involved team-building, understanding how a troop meeting works, and started working on some basic scout skills. Each meeting we split them up into "temporary" patrols (4 & 5 boys in each). After the first month, we went on our first campout. This was when we assigned patrol memberships. Yes, I said "assigned". We didn't allow the boys to pick. Unless your boys are far more mature than ours, they'll pick who they naturally gravitate to. In our case, the four problem kids move together, and the five better kids do the same. That would be a terrible patrol situation. We split them up as to better balance the capabilities and personalities of the group. It also prevents cliques that may come over from the pack. If you're starting with boys from different packs, you run the risk that your patrol lines will be drawn along those lines. Secondly, we didn't elect patrol leadership for another month. This allowed them to get to know each other and interact in a patrol setting. During this time we focused on scout skills and troop structure. Finally, we have not elected an SPL yet. I and the ASM are "acting" SPL when we need to be. When we can, we assign one of the patrol leaders to act as "senior" Patrol Leader. For example, we're going to Klondike this weekend. We've assigned one of the PLs to be "senior" Patrol Leader for the weekend. He'll represent the troop at the SPL meeting, be lead guy on the sled, and generally run the troop on the campout, just as the SPL would. We alternate this between the PLs, so they each get experience at it. We've told them that when we see a boy ready to take the full mantle of responsibility, we'll have an SPL. Fortunately, one of our PLs is starting do demonstrate this, and I expect we'll have an SPL by this summer. I realize that our methods are not "by the book" and some will disagree with them. But, it has been - I believe - very effective in transitioning the boys from Webelos into Scouting. It is not that unlike running a NSP program, the big difference is that the NSP is the only program we had to offer this year. Again, good luck. I encourage you to take your time. The boys will develop, but each at their own pace. It's your job to help get them there.

There's the "official BSA Uniform" and then the individual troop variations of it. Many troops have variations that stray far (IMO, too far) from the standard. These include everything from camo pants to different patch placement schemes on shirts. I don't have any problem with a troop being "hatless", at least as the "standard troop uniform". That does not mean that a boy cannot wear a hat, if he chooses to. Our troop, I assume, would be called "hatless". We don't require wearing an official BSA hat. A few boys have them, most of them don't. For most, the only time they wear hats are in the winter, and they tend to be non-BSA knit hats. Another example - Our troop also has our "troop rope". It's a six foot rope we give each Scout on their first campout. We teach them how to tie it in a sinnet and hook it on a biner. While not "official BSA", it is part of our troop uniform. Boys are encouraged to always have their troop rope on them. It's great for teaching knots "on the fly", and could be useful in case of an emergency. Bottom line, I believe the boys should decide. Whether it's the PLC or a troop-wide vote. I would first have a vote as to "hat" v. "no-hat". Then, if "hat" is chosen, let the boys choose from all available options. I don't believe the SM should overrule unless what they choose is inappropriate (too expensive, not official uniform, etc.). My 2 cents.... good luck, and welcome to the forum!

Mark - I've been "monitoring" ours as well, and I found almost the exact thing. -When addressing a Scout, I use "Mr. lastname" or "Firstname", with no apparent rationale for one or the other. -When addressing a scout in 3rd person, I almost exclusively use first name. -When addressing an adult, even in front of a Scout, I use his first name. -When addressing an adult in 3rd person, I use "Mr. lastname". It's interesting to see what habits you get into without even realizing it.

After re-reading the original post, I have to say that I'm not sure that the advisor was really all that wrong. If all he said was something to the effect of "hey guys, Scouting has these religious awards that you can work on... it's a great opportunity to expand your faith... it would be great achievement for you...", then I think he is okay. In fact, I seem to remember making a similar statement on one or more occasions. In fact, the BSA provides a poster of religious emblems that they encourage you to post for the purpose of encouraging/informing boys of the program. Acco - The problem is the boy did publically state that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in God. At that point, he openly admitted to standing against the BSA policy and - in essence - lied on his BSA application (unless this is a recent change of opinion). If the other scouts picked up on it, you have to bring it to resolution, or they may see you as a hypocrit. I agree we're not the "religion police", but we also have to support BSA policies/principles.

Scoutnut is correct, if that is the case. I was interpreting it that the DE was telling you that you have to accept the scout since the CO wants you to. If that is the case, I stand by my suggestion. If it is just the DE saying it, he/she is incorrect.

I agree with the Old Grey one. It's not up to the advisor to set this as a goal. He can encourage it, but it is certainly not required. It's important to understand what the youth meant. There was an Eagle BOR in this area that nearly got de-railed by a similar statement. After quite some discussion, the boy eventually said that he recognized that there was some "higher power in the universe", but didn't believe it was the traditional God that most believe in. The BOR eventually accepted this position as within the spirit of Scouting. Here's a quote from the BSA website: "The bedrock of Scouting's values is literally and figuratively ... duty to God ... "On my honor, I will do my duty to God and my country ..." To Scouting, the question is NOT: Can a person be honorable without a belief in God? Rather, our commitment is that no child can develop to his/her fullest potential without a spiritual element. The Boy Scouts of America is not a religion ... it is an organization with strong religious tenets. It is a movement that is committed to developing the entire child ... spirituality is very important in that total development. That is why we hold to duty to God. Whether it is the Judeo-Christian ethic; or a Buddhist, Protestant, Mormon, Catholic, or Native American ethic; or that of any of the other great religions of our world, the Boy Scouts of America is committed to the proposition that no child can develop to his/her fullest potential without a spiritual element in his/her life." Best of luck in dealing with this.

BDL - I hope the best for you in this situation. Volunteer leadership is a challenging thing. The "pay" for this job is great, when times are good. Unfortunately, they don't "pay" us enough for the painful times. I haven't dealt with a situation exactly like this, but I have dealt with some problem parents in the past. I'm not a professional, and I'm only offering some ideas. I don't know your exact situation, so it may not apply. I believe it has already been made clear that your Chartering Organization has the right to deny membership to a youth or a leader if they don't meet some particular standard. It sounds like that is exactly what happened with the parents. They have been denied ("asked", to be PC) the right to be registered adult leaders. But, they are telling you that the boy is not the problem, so you must keep him in the troop. Regarding "codes" or "rules of conduct", I have a couple of thoughts. There is the original Cub Scout membership application that they filled out. There is some form of an agreement there. You may check to see if they have violated that. The only other code we live by is the Oath & Law. But these really apply to the Scout, not the parents. From my distant point of view, I see that you have two options. One, allow the boy to participate in the pack, but require the parent's to keep their distance. They can come to pack meetings, but cannot hold any leadership position. They need to keep their mouth's shut. I don't know how you'll handle special events such as Pinewood Derby & family campouts. Option 2 is the heavy handed approach, but one that I may be inclined to use. Go to the CO, tell them that your leadership is going to walk out if this boy stays in the pack (make sure this is true before you threaten it). Remind them that there are other packs to go to, so let them move on. Otherwise, all of you are going to move on. If you guys are as good as I hope you are, the CO would be foolish to choose the boy with the problem parent's over the current pack leadership. The problem family can move on to a pack down the road, and life will go on.

Haven't take the troop there yet, but my family went last fall. All good suggestions here. Rent a good Gettysburg movie before you go, show it to the troop. It's an interesting battle with many amazing stories. It will help them understand what happened. If you've got a history buff in the troop, have them along as your own personal tour guide. The ghost stories are fun, the kids would enjoy it. You can hire a story teller for your group. Not sure how much it would cost, but it could be fun. The other alternative, if you've got a good story teller in your group, is to buy one of the many ghost stories of Gettysburg books and pick some good ones to tell. Take the tour of Eisenhower's house. It's preserved in 1960's/70's decor, the way it was left when Mamie went to the hospital. Also, I think on Friday's the tour guide is the President & Mrs. Eisenhower's personal physician. He did a great job and told the story from the heart. Much better than your average tour guide. Check with the visitor's center, I think he's there every Friday. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

I would certainly hold the prize until his money is paid. The rest is probably a judgement call. If you know the family is having a financial hardship, you may give them a little leeway. Perhaps you give them something in writing that shows the amount owed, and give a date for when payment is due. If you don't think financial hardship is the issue, I would not pay the recharter fees. Even if he does "need it", you are not just spending your money, but the money of the other members of your den (unless you plan on paying for it out of your own pocket). If he's really enjoying it that much, he'll force mom to do something. Maybe then she'll talk to you about what the issue is.

purcelce - Thanks for asking. You're taking the right steps to at least find out what troops expect from your program. (BTW - Scott AFB was always our first stop on our Philmont trips. It's been a while, but I'll never forget those adventures). Here are some of my thoughts: 1 - Leadership ratio needs to be addressed. From what I've seen, ratios of 20:1 or higher (scouts to staff) are not unusual. I'd rather see more of a patrol size ratio. 8-10 scouts per staffer. These staffers can be junior level or even CITs. Then you need a senior staffer, probably a 16-18 yo Eagle with every 3-4 junior staffers. That way you at least have a chance of managing the chaos. 2 - The program should focus on introducing the boys to this fun game we call Scouting. It should be a combination of scout skills, games, outdoor skills and the like. I would even suggest some basic JLT/Patrol Method stuff. The difficult part is that each troop operates a little different, so it's difficult to go very deep with that information. Bottom line - the activities should be scouting-related fun. If it's just playing tag and capture the flag, you're really not any different than any other summer camp offering (or maybe even worse). 3 - Regarding advancement - don't promise or sign-off on requirements. I would recommend a - forgive the term - "report card" at the end of the week. Tell us that Johnnie is proficient at this, a novice at that... let us make the judge as to whether the requirements are checked off, reviewed or re-taught. 4 - Work in a trip to different areas of camp. For example, let them all get a round in at the rifle range and archery range. At our camp, free shoot time is nearly non-existent. First year scouts aren't allowed to take the MBs (you have to be 13), so most of them never get on the range. They see this as a step back from Webelos camp, where they got to do BB and archery every day. You could also work in one day of swimming, and let your swimmers go out in canoes or row boats for a short time. They would have a blast, and maybe get a little excited about coming back next year and taking one of those MBs. Of course, these would require coordination with the heads of those areas, and that is probably where the problem lies. They have their class schedules to keep, so you constantly fight with that. Good luck. I hope these help.

I was an instructor at Pow Wow this weekend and the subject of Cub Leader training came up. I wish I had Andrew's thoughts before the discussion. The overwhelming opinion was that the Leader Specific Training at all levels is essentially useless. For Cub Scout leaders, Pow Wow seems to be the premier training vehicle. Why? Because it's fun and relevant. People want training that they can turn around and apply. Most of our leader specific training is not. For Boy Scouting, the Outdoor Leader training is the only one that fits the bill. I wish we had something similar to Boy Scout leaders. (I guess we do, they're called Roundtables - but that's another thread).

I was an instructor at Pow Wow this weekend and the subject of Cub Leader training came up. I wish I had Andrew's thoughts before the discussion. The overwhelming opinion was that the Leader Specific Training at all levels is essentially useless. For Cub Scout leaders, Pow Wow seems to be the premier training vehicle. Why? Because it's fun and relevant. People want training that they can turn around and apply. Most of our leader specific training is not. For Boy Scouting, the Outdoor Leader training is the only one that fits the bill. I wish we had something similar to Boy Scout leaders. (I guess we do, they're called Roundtables - but that's another thread).

I'm personally not a fan of the First Year camper programs. At our council camp, it's essentially a hundred or so kids in a field playing games, supervised by a group of inexperienced 14 year old first year campers. They earn Totin' Chip, Firemn Chit, and an array of Tenderfoot, 2nd Class & 1st Class requirements. Of course, there is the one senior staffer who is in charge, but he's so busy fighting fires, that he really doesn't get to supervise the program. We encourage our first year scouts to take a few simple merit badges (basketry, wood carving, etc.) and Swimming MB (if they're able). Then leave some time to fish, swim and work on scout skills in the campsite. I made a mistake this past year as I over-booked our first year scouts. They all signed up for five MBs, and were simply too busy. We'll stress leaving at least one hour for free time this year.

I've recently crossed the bridge from Webelos to Scouting and have seen the problems on both sides. As a Webelos leader, I felt the Troops weren't that interested in recruiting us. When our boys made a planned visit to a troop meeting, they almost acted like they didn't know we were coming. The SM was 30 minutes late, the SPL didn't have a meeting plan... it was utter chaos. There was nothing to explain scouting to the parents, so most were unprepared for the boy-led meetings and didn't understand why things appeared so unprepared. We were supposed to get information on a campout coming up the following weekend, and they hadn't set a time or a fee. It was a disaster. Our boys lost all interest in the troop at that time. Now, as a Scoutmaster, I'm trying to recruit Webelos. I know all the Webelos from our associated pack, and they have all been to a meeting (well planned, with a parent's informational meeting taking place at the same time). They've been invited to three activities and most are coming with us to Klondike next Saturday. I think we're going to get all six boys. The only problem I have is that I feel encouraged to do all communications through the Webelos leader, and I don't think he is doing an adequate job of communicating directly to the families in his den. In future years, I'm going to get e-mail and contact information for each Webelos when they visit, so I can target communications directly to each scout. I've also tried recruiting from a neighboring pack that has no troop directly associated with it. We're located on the border of their school district and a great deal of their Cubs live as close to our CO as we do. I've given my name & contact info to the Cubmaster a couple of times, but I still haven't heard anything. I understand that the Webelos leader has a son in another troop, so I have the feeling that he is not interested in promoting our troop with his boys. Maybe next year...

I'm with Laurie (I'll be crossing the 40 bridge this year as well). I expect the boys to refer to me or other adults as "Mr." or "Mrs." unless otherwise instructed. Some of the leaders have nicknames (ChrisV. or Mr.B), but it is up to the adult as to whether they are acceptible to him or her. I also think it is also acceptable for the boys to use full names in casual conversation ("Is John Smith coming on the campout?"). Now, in regards to a BOR, I would encourage the Eagle Scout Candidate to use the more formal approach, because he doesn't know how the members of the Board will view it. It's "better safe than sorry". This reminds me of an incident at church a few years ago. I was well into my 30s and was making an announcement. I referred to a senior citizen friend of mine by his first name. I had no problem with it since he and I were good friends. However, another senior citizen came up to me after the service and chastised me for being so informal with someone that I should show more respect to. So, you never know how people are going to interpret your speech. Play it safe, use "Mr." or "Mrs.".

I would hope that the Scout would come back to me and say "MBC Smith didn't work out, but I found out about MBC Jones from xyz Troop, are you okay with that?", or "MBC Smith didn't work out, can you recommend someone else for me?". I had a situation a couple of months ago. A Scout from a neighboring district had visited a couple of troop meetings and was interested in transfering to our troop. But, he hadn't made up his mind yet. He heard that some of our boys were getting ready to start Photography MB. He got real excited, seems the kid really likes photography. He asked if he could participate. I told him that it was okay with me, as long it was okay with the MBC (it was). However, I told him and his dad (who was an ASM in the other troop) that I couldn't give him a blue card, since he wasn't a member of our troop. His SM would need to give him a blue card. And, if he needed information about the MBC credentials, we could provide that to them. Both of them seemed shocked at this. In fact, they haven't been back. I can only assume that they were used to a troop that didn't follow the rules the way we did. Was I correct in not giving him a blue card since he wasn't a member of our troop?

Laura - "I would still like to have a talk with the boys and help them see the error of the situation. I would encourage them to complete the questionable requirements PROPERLY, and would help them find the means to do it, if necessary." I agree 100%. In the situation of the original post, there's little you can do after the fact, except counsel and encourage the boys to do the right thing. I would, however, learn from the experience, and be aware of it the next time. I also agree regarding the district MBC lists. They're pretty much non-existant. When a Scout asks for help finding an MBC, I do the following: (1) ask the Troop Advancement Chairman to help locate an MBC, (2) throw it out to the Troop Committee to see if they are qualified or know of anyone who is, and (3) ask my contacts in the area (via Roundtables, e-mail, etc.). If the person we come up with is not a registered Scouter, we have them fill out the paperwork prior to starting the MB. However, I've never seen any sort of formal approval process beyond the processing of the adult leader application.

This was recently discussed in the camping forum: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=30140 Best resources is the Guide to Safe Scouting (referred to here as G2SS). It's located on the national scouting site.

At the closing of our troop meeting prior to Christmas, I asked the boys this question. I allowed them to guess for a while, and got many good responses. One of them even got very close, but I didn't let on. I encouraged them to think about it over the holidays (we took Christmas week off). We held JLT last weekend, and several of the boys asked me about it. Even some of the parents asked me about it when I talked to them outside of the meetings. At our troop meeting this week I gave them "the answer". Well, actually, one of them guessed it. It made them think. I told them that the Scout law does not say: "A scout - tries to be Trustworth - sometimes is Loyal - is Helpful when he has the time - is Friendly to his friends - attempts to be Courteous - is Kind when he's in a good mood - Obedient when he agrees with the rules - does his best to be Cheerful - is Brave when it's easy to be - used to be Thrifty - wants to be Clean - is Reverent on Sundays. Nope, it just says "A SCOUT IS". I like it. Great thread. Thanks Red.