EagleInKY

I always hesitate to be the first to weigh in on an issue like this. But we've seen it posted here time and time again. First, you do not have to put up with behavior such as this. Cussing, fighting and other abusive behavior are not part of the values of Scouting. The boy can be removed from the Pack. If the CM doesn't support you on this, you should go to the Pack Committee. If it's non-existant, try the CO. If all else fails, you might have to get all the parents in your den together to march up to the CM and demand that he makes the move. The Cubmaster doesn't have the right to sign off on this boy's advancement. If he tries, he is falsifying the advancement reports. I would take it up with your DE or District Advancement Chair. As you will hear time and time again, as leaders we have no right to add or take away from the advancement requirements. If he hasn't met them, NO ONE can change that.

FOG is correct, to sit on a BOR, they must be a committee member. To be a Committee Member, you must be registered with the BSA. You might have interested adults that help out from time-to-time. That's great. However, they can't sit on BORs and they can't wear the uniform. You should also be concerned if they are participating a lot and have not had proper training (leadership or YP). Also, I don't think insurance covers "concerned adults", only registered ones. Here's what we do. We ask every family that joins our troop to provide one adult to the troop in a leadership role, either as an ASM or on the committee, for one year. We've haven't had anyone tell us "no". In fact, when we rechartered this year, we told the committee members that they had fulfilled the obligation that we had requested, and that they could step down. None of them did! We have a few "concerned adults" that go camping with us or help out with activities, but they are not consistently there. The one who does attend fairly regularly has received YP training.

I haven't asked here, but I did ask at an RT once. The general feeling was that it was not a position that really required much responsibility or leadership. The APL, in most patrols, doesn't do much except for stand in for the PL when he's not there. Therefore, it's seen more as a training position for young scouts. There's probably more to it than that, but that is what I was told.

A good practice for all organizations that work with Youth is to have a release form signed by parents so you can use the youth's images in print and other media. We do this for both our Pack and Troop. This allows us to use their pictures in newspapers, brochures and the web. Our release form states that full names and other identifying information (address, phone numbers, etc). will not be given without specific permission.

Well done Matau. This had to be a difficult and awkward situation. I congratulate you for the courage it took to carry through with solid Scouting ideals.

Buy the shirt now, but buy it big. He'll be proud of his new uniform and it will help build excitement for the new year. It needs to last two years. He'll switch to tan in Webelos.

Our pack has a crossover ceremony for Tigers in May. The boys wear their new blue shirts under their orange tee-shirt. They cross the bridge and rip off the orange to reveal their Cubbie Blues. They love it. Best line from a past crossover, a Tiger Dad said "I'm glad to be moving to the tan uniform, I'm tired of looking like a traffic cone!".

Sing along with me FOG - Kentucky Woman If she get to know you She goin' to own you I better cut it out. If SWMBO sees this, I'm in trouble. ;-) I've had motivation challenges at the troop level. We use the Scout Accounts as the primary motivator, and that just doesn't work for those who have mom & dad write the checks. I've spoken to the parents and tried to encourage them to put some responsibility on the boys. My suggestion to them was to require their sons to come up with 1/2 of their Summer Camp fee (about $70). Tell them that any fund raising proceeds goes toward their half. If they don't earn it, they'll have to come up with it from their allowance, savings, etc. Some parents liked the idea, but others just looked at me like I was from another planet. Boys taking financial responsibility??? You must be joking.

I agree, if he wasn't paid and is truly providing service, then I think it is valid for the 2nd Class, Star & Life ranks. I would recommend sending letters stating the # of hours of actual service the scout rendered to the appropriate SM. It's up to the SM whether he'll count it or not. On a related note, do any of you approve service hours completed for other organizations, such as Beta Club or church youth groups?

Amen and amen to all the posts. By all means, get this reported and dealt with. It's bigger than you can (or should) handle on your own. After things have settled down, I recommend showing the "A Time to Tell" video. It's a little awkward for the kids (and adults), but it brings this very issue to light. I would not show it right now, since you're in the heat of battle. But it is something you should plan for down the road. Finally, keep your chin up. Oftentimes, when a unit has new leaders, boys will try to test their boundaries. Some may be upset that the old leader left. Others may be upset that you are the new leader. Some are just seeing what they can get away with. Hopefully, this will turn out to be a minor incident and things will settle down. (So much for the "one hour a week"... ;-)

To motivate kids at the Cub Scout level, we offered prizes that any of them would want. For example, two years ago we offered a PlayStation 2 to the pack grand champion. (It came with a gift receipt if they wanted to exchange it for something else). Who did it motivate the most? The average kid - the one who wants a PS2, but mom & dad keep putting it off because it's a luxury. The rich, spoiled kids said "I already have one". It was our biggest sale ever, with average sales just over $200 per Cub.

Foto - I've been thinking about posting the same question. I just learned about this a few weeks ago. It looks interesting. May be something for our middle-year scouts to do to keep them interested in map & compass stuff.

If they are crossing over to Boy Scouts, then I would definitely have them participate in the crossover ceremony.

We have a pretty good relationship with our CO, but part of that is because we're just one year old. They still remember what they signed up for. Our COR regularly attends troop meetings - not as a participant, he's just "there". He does a lot of the maintenance work around the church, so he's usually piddling around the building while we're meeting. He tries to attend Pack meetings and COH when possible. He and his wife attended the pack's B&G this year. However, while that sounds great, the sad part is that the leadership of the church has grown less interested. The pastor that was there when we started the relationship was very pro-scouting. He attended much like the present COR does. He's gone now, and the new pastor hasn't recognized our existence even once. We've invited him to several things, but not even an RSVP. On Scout Sunday, he never even mentioned the 20 or so scouts + families that were in attendance. So, I'm a little disappointed with him. Given all that, compared to my previous experiences and units around me, I think we have an above-average relationship with our CO.

NWS - Actually, the G2SS does differentiate between a 10 year old and a 17 year old scout. In the age appropriate guidelines, it has a column for "Boy Scouts" and another column for "Older Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts and Venturing". So, yes, the G2SS does agree that some things are more appropriate for older scouts (Mountaineering, caving and COPE to name a few).

Blaze, I feel your pain, and I've seen this happen. Certainly, your structure is pretty common out here in the real world - unfortunately. Trying to be optimistic here, is this a chance to bring the CO back into the picture. What if you went to them and said something to the effect that "You've been a great supporter for Cub Scouting, and you have served the community well by allowing us to use your facility as well as your good name. We've come to a crossroads, and we're in danger of lowing the pack. Do you have any interest keeping this organization going in this community? If so, are there some resources you can bring to bear to help? If not, we're concerned that we won't be able to keep it afloat." Maybe they'll become interested when they find out that it may fold.

We have a mixed bag in regards to the motivation of our Scouts to do fund raising. They fall into three camps: 1) The interested - they seem to always be motivated, for no apparent reason. We give 1/4 of profits back to them in their unit account. But the biggest motivation seems to be the new gear we get for the troop. 2) The multiple-child family. These folks are fund-raised to death. About 1/2 of our troop has younger boys in the pack. The pack has lots of cool prizes for their popcorn winners, so the older brothers usually let their younger ones take the majority of the sales. 3) The lazy. I just can't figure these out. They are usually the ones who say "Hey, Mr. J, wouldn't it be cool to go to Colorado next year?", or "Man, I wish we had two of those stoves.". If one of these 'lazy' boys says something to that effect, I usualy just point out that it takes money. The most effective motivation for the troop seems to be the new gear we get with the proceeds of a fund-raiser. Tying the fund-raiser to the equipment gets them excited. You can do it on both the front-end and the back-end. For example: Sell donuts and raise money for a new canopy! can be the rally call on the front-end. Then, after the fact (if you make your goal), buy the gear, and remind the boys that they made it possible through their efforts.

Gee, this is always a hard one. It has to do a lot with personal preference and personalities. I've never been involved in a huge troop. The largest I've been involved with was around 40 boys. My personal feeling is somewhere around 30-40 boys is optimal. You usually have around 8-10 new scouts, a core of 15-20 2nd-3rd year scouts, and a senior group of around 10 scouts. It allows you to put on a really solid, well-balanced program. With that said, I've seen some outstanding large troops. There are a couple of them close by. They have great programs. The biggest problems they have is in figuring out where they can go as a troop. One troop I know of has to put on their own summer camp, because the council camp just can't support their size. We started our own troop last year with 9 boys. We're growing to 15 next week. We expect to get 10-15 more next year from the Pack. Why did we do this, with 3 small troops and 1 large troop within 5 miles? Over the five years I served as Cubmaster, I saw close to 90% of our graduating Webelos were dropping out during their first year of Boy Scouts. I felt this was way to high. I talked to many of the parents and a few of the boys, and this is what they said: The ones that went to the large troop (about 1/3) said that the boys from our pack were "lost in the shuffle". With this troop graduating 20-30 Webelos from their pack every year, our 2-3 boys would simply have trouble fitting in. I think there may have been a little social pressure, too, since our pack is a little more rural, and the troop in a more suburban area. The ones that went to the local small troop (close to 1/2) simply didn't like the program. It's an extremely laid-back troop. They pretty much let the boys do what they want. I suspect there is a little bit of hazing of new boys going on, but have no evidence to back it up. The rest (less than 1/3) have wandered around to other troops in the area. They usually drop out because they had no connection with the boys in the troop and struggle fitting in. So, I went a little off-topic, but the bottom line is it depends. Personalities, background, social pressues... they all have an impact. I will disagree with one statement, I believe there are many more leadership opportunities in a small troop. We have young scouts being asked to step up and be PL and SPL, with very little experience and no older scouts to model. Recently I was on an Eagle BOR for the large troop I spoke of. The boy had only held two POR over nearly 7 years. With so many boys, he was never forced out of his comfort zone to try and lead in new ways. Just some rambling thoughts. Thanks for the relevant subject.

This has recently been discussed, check this thread: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=56273

Our pack routinely lost 50% of Tigers by the end of the first year. The excuses ranged from "He just didn't enjoy it", to "I thought Scouting would offer a lot more than this", and the ever-popular "It takes too much time". To counteract the excuses, I started being real clear at Roundup. I told them exactly what Tigers is... it's just about having fun. It's not about advancement, high adventure or anything else you may perceive about Scouting. It's about 1st Graders getting together and making friends. As they get older, they'll continue to build on these relationships as they progress in scouting. Advancement and high adventure will come down the road. Hopefuly, they'll stick with it all the way to Eagle. But that's many, many years away. I'm not sure if our retention was much higher, but I am pretty sure that they gave it a fair chance before giving up. And, none of them said that it wasn't what they expected.

Eamonn & Barry, Great points from you as always. I am certainly not expecting perfection out of this lad. I'm looking for measurable, noticable improvement. I didn't go into great detail in my post, but I'll say that the boy has exhibited many bad traits, and routinely broke 5 of the 12 points. However, when my son came home from last week and said "Bobby was really good tonight, and has for the past few weeks!", then I know it's starting to be noticed. My conversations with "Bobby", have gone something like this: Me - "Bobby, when you (fill in the blank), how do you think that fit into the Scout Oath and Law?" Bobby - "Huh?" Me - "Well, you remember us talking about showing Scout Spirit and living by the Scout Oath and Law?" Bobby - "Yeah,.... oh, yeah shuffling, looking at feet" Me - "That's not a good example of A Scout is , is it?" Bobby - "No Sir. dejected look I don't think I'll ever be able to pass this." Me - "Now Bobby, we wouldn't be wasting time on this if it weren't possible. You've shown improvement, just keep up the good work." Bobby - "Okay, I'll try". So, I'm right there with you. Don't expect perfection out of an 11 year old, hyperactive child. But, I do want to see improvement and an honest attempt to do his best. Thanks again.

Something we do in our troop is having the SM & BOR discuss the scouts before the BOR. If the board has an issue, they should bring it up then. It also gives the SM a chance to give some areas for the board to emphasize/encourage. The only downside to bringing it up at this time would be that, if the BOR convinced the SM that the boy hadn't fulfilled the requirement, the SM would have to go back and tell the scout that he wasn't ready to board. But, this is better than getting kicked back by the board.

My suggestions were targeted for convincing people who were interested. (Note last paragraph: I've been able to get people who have an inkling of interest to overcome their resistance. I am usually pretty good at sensing which parents in the crowd look interested and which ones are doing everything they can to avoid eye contact. Finding those that have the seed of interest in them is important, our job is then to get the interest to grow and blossom into something bigger. (I thought a good springtime analogy would be good right now).

These are the big three I see: - Time requirements (job or siblings typically). - Fear of commitment. - Fear of what they don't know/understand. Here's how I respond to each: Time requirements - We'll be there to back you up. Get a partner to co-lead the den and back each other up. Don't worry about the fact that you have to be out of town half of the time, take your half and we'll take care of the other. Fear of commitment - Ask for only one year. Promise to help them. Tell the other parents that they are only doing it for a year, and after that, it will be someone else's turn. Most will end up loving it, and won't give it up. Fear of what they don't understand. - Sit down with them and go over the program in real simple terms. Promise to be there to give them advice. Give them all the resources you can muster (den meeting plans, Pow Wow books, etc.). In general, I've been able to get people who have an inkling of interest to overcome their resistance. I've only had a couple back out after getting started.

It's been over two months (hard to believe) since I started this thread. I received such good advice, I felt it my duty to update the forum on what has transpired since then. Quick recap - I have a challenging scout who has a variety of issues, and constantly is a disruption to the troop. I felt that he wasn't living up to the Scout Oath & Law, and was curious as to how much latitude I had in interpreting that requirement. Shortly after the last post, we held our Troop JLT. Since we're a small, new troop, all 9 boys were invited and were present. This young man was his usual self. He was disruptive and didn't "get it". During one of the discussion excercises, he was fiddling with his "troop rope". (We all have a 3 ft rope tied to a biner, useful for a variety of reasons). I asked him to stop, as he was disruptive to the group. After a couple of warnings, I asked him to hand me the rope. He threw it at me, missing my face by inches! I managed every ounce of restraint, and asked him to pick it up and hand it to me. He walked over, picked it up, and then tossed it to me. I allowed it to bounce to the floor. Again, I asked him to pick it up and hand it to me. This time, he did so. Fast forward to the Troop Meeting. We were doing a knot relay. He asked if he could borrow a rope so I loaned him mine. After the meeting, his mom saw him hand me my rope back. She asked where his was, and he said that I "stole it". I quickly corrected him, and told her we needed to talk. Another committee member, who was present at JLT, proceeded to tell her the story. She was shocked and upset, and agreed to meet with us. Committee Chairman and I met with Mom & Dad, and discussed the issues. I've actually posted some of their comments in a diffrent thread, but it went something like this: * child has anger management issues * child doesn't take "no" as an answer (he needs the "why" with it). * child doesn't respond to leadership from other kids. I agreed that I would do my part to explain the rationale behind "no", whenver possible. But, more importantly, I explained the boy-leadership model and that he had to get with the program. I also explained the Scout Oath & Law requirement, and that I was not going to approve him for his next rank (2nd Class) until I saw improvement. They agreed. I followed up with the boy at the next troop meeting and told him the same. Fast forward to Scout Sunday. We had a pot-luck and a COH after services. Boy did two things - First, after asking the scouts to go through line last, he jumped to the front because he brought his own food. Second, during an activity report in the COH, he embarrassed us all. I won't go into the details, but I'll just say that his mom was in tears. Afterward, I reminded the boy of the requirement and that these were prime examples of his problem. He said he understood. Since then, he's had a couple of minor issues. I've pointed them out immediately, and explained that they were examples of his behavior problems. Finally, I'm happy to say, it seems to be making an impact. The past three weeks have been great. He's a little hyper at times, but is - in general - behaving well. He asks me every week how his behavior is and when will he be ready for his BOR! I'm not calling it a victory yet, but I think it's finally sinking in. I plan to put him up for 2nd class next month. If he makes it through another month, including a campout (the real test), I'll put him up for 1st class the following month. He's already completed all the other requirements for both ranks. Thanks again for the advice.