EagleInKY

I've heard of troops conducting BORs on campouts, I'm curious as to what experience you've had with that. Does it work well? I'm particularly interested about doing it at Summer Camp. We've got six boys who are one requirement away from their next rank (Tenderfoot, 2nd Class or 1st Class). Any of these boys could potentially complete the requirements while we are there. I can easily conduct the SM conference, and we have the committee members present to conduct the BOR.

I heard of an Eagle BOR around here that lasted for 4 hours because of this subject. Eventually, the candidate stated that he could accept that there was a higher power in the universe. In hearing about it, I felt the BOR bent over backward to get a candidate to "say the right words", so they could approve him. I would rather they stop the review and ask him to look deeper at his convictions and those of the BSA, and evaluate whether he truly met the requirements set forth.

Jason - Not all that surprising, given the concerns over child protection these days. I can understand a troop being cautious, but we would never make such a blanket statement. This is why the district approach would likely be more successful. Get involved as a commissioner, a MB counselor or some other role. This would allow you to get introduced to the troops and eventually afford you the opportunity to get involved at a troop level. In the mean time, why don't you just move over here to Kentucky, I'll put you to work.

Bravo Mark. Excellent post. I'm saving this one in my archives. I feel an SM Minute coming.

Rooster I agree with you that we should give feedback to parents. I'll often give feedback like "Johnny and I had a good talk today, he's really maturing", "Bobby is making some improvement, we just need to get him to control his temper when things don't go his way", "Billy still interupts a lot, I just wanted you to know that I called him aside and asked him to be more careful"...etc. However, in the specific case mentioned by the stapler guy, I would rather take it back to the scout and let him come clean. In this case, it sounds like the scout is trying to work the parents against the SM.

I've done exactly that. I'll ask him if he's confortable with those items and offer to walk through them with him. Usually they'll say, no, and that they're okay. I'll remind them that they'll ask about some of the requirements they completed, and that it would be a good idea to read over it and make sure they remember them. But, I can only go so far. Over 95% of the time it's not an issue, it's just that occasional one that struggles.

I'd say "that's inconsistent with what Johnny has said to me, but I'll go back and follow up with him on it". If Johnny now changes his tune, then we talk about that. If Johnny restates what he told you before, offer to have him correct it with his parents, or you will. If you just tell the parents, I don't think there is any specific confidentially rules that you broke, but you run the risk of losing the trust of the boy.

Bob - I agree with you completely. (really, I do). I don't believe this was handled correctly. I think too much time was allowed to go by before it came up, and too much time was given as a "requirement" for improving. As for my example, I was specifically vague in my post, but was very specific in my actual conversations with the Scout. We also had the discussion months before he reached the point of having all other requirements completed for 2nd Class.

goodkidsmom mentioned that the BORs in her troop didn't want the SM to pass boys to the board until they were "ready". I've heard this stated several times. In my opinion, "ready" means that he has successfully passed the requirements for a rank. However, I've had some "discussions" with the folks on our BOR, because they have critized me for a boy coming that they did not feel was adequately prepared. Usually, this means that the scout (1) could not remember the oath, law, slogan and/or motto, (2) was not in full proper uniform, or (3) could not remember what he did for some of the requirements. My responses to each of these are: (1) Scout Oath, law, etc. - The requirement at every rank past Tenderfoot is that he lives by them, not that he can recite them all from memory. While I agree that they should be able to, and there's really no excuse for them to not remember them, I believe they are adding to the requirements. Recently, they've changed their approach to counsel the boy to go back, review those things, and then come back to them with a better recollection. (2) Uniform - My counsel to them was that I don't dress the boys, so I cannot control whether a boy forgets his belt or not. I will not put a boy before a BOR if he comes in wearing no uniform at all. But I don't stop him if he's wearing white socks either. They don't "fail" them, but they do use it as a chance to explain the importance of the uniform. (3) Remembering requirements - Again, my counsel is that the requirement is that they completed the work. If Johnny can't remember much about when he did basketry merit badge 3 years ago at summer camp, then I don't see the problem. Admittedly, if he says, "what's the heimlich maneuver", then they have a valid concern. But I don't believe that's the SM job to determine if they remember every item. That's the purpose of the BOR. No particular question here. Just some ramblings that might spur some conversations. What do you see as the SM's responsibilty for making sure the boy is "ready" for the BOR?

Mom said "SM said the Committee said he should not pass along boys to the BOR if he thinks they're not ready - behavior, scout spirit, etc. " FS said "I have to take issue with that attitude of the Scoutmaster and the committee. A boy is ready for a board of review when he has completed the requirements. There isn't anything for the SM to think about. Either the boy has satisfactorily completed the requirements listed in the book or he hasn't." I agree. However, I think the confusion may be around terminology. It sounds like the SM is saying that the boy hasn't met the Scout Spirit requirement. If that is the case, he is within his "rights" (although maybe not applied well). If he's saying that he's signed off on Scout Spirit and is holding up the Scoutmaster's Conference, then he's wrong, as you have stated. I'm going to spin off a thread regarding the SM's responsibility for the boy to be "ready" for the BOR.

Okay, forgive me, but I'm going to play devil's advocate again (or is that Scoutmaster's advocate) ;-) As I mentioned, I've had issues with a paticular scout, we'll call him Billy. A SM conference earlier in the year went like this (after all of the how are you doing, what do you enjoy types of questions): SM, So, Billy, where are some areas you can improve as a scout? Billy: Stop getting in trouble so much, I guess. SM: Good, yes, we had a rough time last campout didn't we? And at your last patrol function, I understand you got a little unruly. Is that true? Billy: Yes sir. SM: Is that living according to the Scout Law? Billy: I guess not. (and it goes on from there) Now, where I differ from the SM is that I didn't say, "come back and see me in six months". I told "Billy" that we were going to monitor his behavior and that I wanted to see some improvement at the next campout and the next patrol events. Until I saw some, I would not signoff on his Scout Spirit requirement. "Billy" had completed all the requirements for 2nd Cass & 1st Class early in the year. I signed off on SS for 2nd Class in April. I'm getting ready to do the same for 1st class, assuming all goes well at Summer Camp in 2 weeks. I think it is reasonable for the SM to establish some goals for your son to make an improvement in an area. Six months is too long a period, that seems like an eternity for a young lad. It would have been better for him to give him some milestones that were close and within his grasps (let's see how you do at Summer Camp, Over the next 2 months, at JLT, etc.). BTW, there is a point of the Scout Law that does apply. It's "A Scout is Brave". I hope you get this worked out soon. My best to your son.

Ed, I think you are correct. I would suggest getting the mom trained and registered as a MB Counselor, and then let her be her son's counselor. Hopefully, she'll understand the rules and apply them correctly.

It's always difficult to give a recommendation based upon these postings. If everything you said is as you described, I cannot condone the actions of the SM. However - and please don't take offense - I encourage you to consider Hunt's advice. There are often two sides to every story. The SM may be doing what he feels is in the best interest of the boy. We often find ourselves as amateur child psychologists, without any real training except that learned by the seat of our pants. We make decisions based upon what we observe and the feedback we get from the leaders of the troop. Sometimes we make good ones, sometimes not. I've had a particularly challenging young man that I've written about here before. While meeting with his mom & dad, they told me he had "anger manageement issues", and was seeing a counselor. They told me that he doesn't take direction from peers, and essentially asked us to not have a boy-run program. I'm sorry, but that's one of the basic tenets of scouting. Not every unit is boy-run to the same degree, and not every boy can lead to the same degree, but we are all to be boy-run. I give that as an example of a good-hearted parent that was looking out for the best interest of her son. However, the best thing for her son is for him to learn to deal with his issues and participate in the program as it was laid out nearly a century ago. Thankfully, the boy is coming around, and mom & dad are starting to understand. Talk to your SM. Find out why he's doing what he's doing. Provide the expert "testamony" if need be. In the end, come up with a plan that you can mutually agree upon to best develop and nurture your son - within the program of Scouting.

I would get with the SM & the Advancement Chair. Did the SM sign the blue card? I don't think the COR has authority on her own to do that.

WHEW! I scanned this message and saw the Wheelman's name and nearly had a panic attack. Thankfully, it's an old thread just resurrected. The wheel is still deflated. I can calm down again.

We started this troop last year and had our first JLT last winter as a lock-in (scouts played the night before and then did JLT on Saturday). It's a great experience and it made a huge difference in our boy-leadership capabilities. We're holding our next JLT in the fall shortly after elections. Attendance is limited (recommended about 10 scouts). Preference will be given in the following order: 1) SPL & PLs are expected to attend 2) Scouts who have never attended JLT 3) Scouts who have attended but hold other troop positions 4) Scouts who have attended but hold no position The kit is a great start and gives a good outline. You can tailor it to your own needs. There are some good websites out there. Here are a couple: http://www.scouter659.htmlplanet.com/index.html http://www.netwoods.com/d-leadership.html#JLT

Scoutmom - You hit the nail right on the head. There are many positives about being an Eagle Scout. Helping you land a job is one potential benefit. But it is certainly not a guarantee. Personally, I know that my first two jobs after college were partially swayed due to my being an Eagle Scout. My third job (and current one) was also benefited by a scouting relationship, in that one of the parents of a scout recommended me. FOG - Your point is also valid. There are many factors besides being an Eagle Scout. Without knowing this young man, we can't possibly determine the issue. Case in point - Last year a scouter asked if I would interview his son (even though I had no openings at the time). He was graduating from a prestigious mid-western university with a degree in my field (computer science). He asked if I would just take a look at him and give him some feedback. The young man is an Eagle Scout, so I happily agreed. This fellow came in with long, greasy-looking hair, mumbled when he spoke, couldn't look me in the eye, had a wimpy handshake and dressed like a throwback to the sixties. Eagle Scout or not, there was no way I could recommend him for a position at my company. I gave him some feedback, and some to his dad. I haven't heard if he has found anything. Bottom line - be proud of being an Eagle, it is a great accomplishment. But don't assume that it entitles you to a free pass. There are many ways it has and will benefit you in life. Not all of them will translate to employment or dollars. In fact, most of the benefits you have gained are so subtle, that you don't recognize where they came from until many years after the fact.

Bob - I have no problem with the adult counselors at camp. It's usually been the 14 year old ones I've had issues with. And, for the record, I totally support the process as designed outside of the constructs of camp. It works great for the normal MB process. Even if I felt a counselor cut a boy some slack, it's not my job to question it.

This problem hit us last year at Summer Camp. A boy brought his cell phone, and then snuck off to call mom and dad. When he found out that there is virtually no cell phone coverage at camp, he got homesick real fast. We've now added cell phone to the list of "banned electronic devices". Adult leaders can have cell phones. Like others have said, I ask them to use them discretely. Our parents also have supported the "stick it out" message.

Whew! Emotional withdrawel has now subsided. I'm glad the site is back.

Bob, you are correct, my beef is with the camp. That's exactly why we put a process in place that is fair to the scouts, and allows them to complete the merit badges according to the requirements, nothing more, nothing less. Ed had a very good point about "earning" vs. "giving" merit badges. You said "Either get the root of the problem fixed, or do not give the scout a blue card. Because once a registered, approved counselor signs it, it is a done deal. That is real world in the BSA." Actually, that's not the real world, at least not here. As I mentioned, our camp doesn't use blue cards. The boys show up for their sessions. At the end of the week, the counselor provides a form stating what they have completed at camp. No blue card is exchanged. Furthermore, how in the world can a Scoutmaster be expected to approve the counselors at Summer Camp. The majority of them are great. It's the one or two problem ones each year that cause the issue. I have no way of knowing ahead of time who those might be. At the pre-camp meeting they often don't know who the instructors will be. Even if they did, the chances of me knowing anything about them would be slim. In the case I mentioned from last year, the counselor was assigned the night before. There is no way I could have imagined or planned for that situation. Yes, my beef is with the camp staff. But I don't want to be too hard on them. I've been there myself (3 years of camp staff). It's a tough job. Your dealing with underpaid labor that you hope does a good job because they want to be there. But, sometimes they don't work out. You learn from those mistakes and problably don't hire them back next year. In a perfect world, everyone would live up to their expectations, and we could follow the procedures as you stated.

Boleta - I agree with you wholeheartedly. While I agree with the principle that Bob stands for, it doesn't fly with the Summer Camp program that we see. (Incidentally, I agree with it for Merit Badges earned on their own. I would never question the completion of a MB blue card signed by an approved counselor of our troop or district.) For example, last year, we had scouts take Mammal Study. The counselor was an absolute embarrasment to the camp. He didn't teach the subject and didn't require the work to be done. I (and many others) brought it up with the Camp Director. He was stuck in a hard situation, he had a staffer quit over the weekend and he had to fill a spot. In retrospect, he realized that this instructor was a mistake. The instructor signed off completions for everyone, even though there was work that had to be done outside of camp. He didn't ask for proof that they had done it, he just signed them all off. Luckily, our camp does not give blue cards to the scouts. They give us a different form, and it is given to the Scoutmaster. This allows us to review the forms before taking them home. I asked the director about these completions, and he essentially told me to "do what I had to do". Therefore, we have designed a process to help with the situation. We assign an adult who is attending Summer Camp to be the "advisor" for each MB. It is his/her responsibility to monitor the progress of the scouts during the week. He also is aware of the status of partials and what is left to be done for them. At the next troop meeting after camp, we provide each boy with a report of their MB status. The status for each MB can be "complete", "partial" or "review" If they truly completed the MB at camp, we don't require any more. If it is reported as a partial, then that is the status. If a MB counselor at camp says that it was complete, but we don't believe it was, we indicate it as under "review". The advisor and the scout work to verify that the appropriate work gets done. We find this to be fair, honest and a very workable process. The only scout that gets "punished", in Bob's eyes, is a scout that didn't do the work to begin with, and then doesn't make the effort to complete it after camp.

When our troop formed last year, we were re-instituting a troop number that had closed down about 5 years earlier. It had been in the same community, but at a different CO. I contacted the former SM (who was a member of the previous CO) and asked if he had any old equipment they would consider donating. He gave us everything they had left. Much of it was worthless, but a great deal of it was still in good shape, and very usable. It was a great gift for us. I think most COs would do the same.

Polar Bear Swim - An early morning dip in the lake. Usualy 6:00 AM or something like that. The water is nice and cold. Hence the name. Bob - I've seen the jousting done with "noodles", you know, those long floatation things kids play with in the pools. Not much chance of injury with them.

Oh, come on FOG, are you the only one that gets to be cynical? ;-)