EagleInKY

Sometimes you have to sit down and have a heart-to-heart with your parents. It's not easy. And, with Cub Scouts, it's even more difficult. Often, the parent's have not fully "bought into" the scouting idea. By the time they get to Boy Scouts, they often have. I had a situation earlier this year. My right-hand guy left the troop (his son dropped out). The new crop of Webelos crossed over and two new ASMs came in. I expected everything to continue wonderfully. After all, two to replace one, right? Well, it didn't turn out that way. I couldn't depend on the new leaders for anything. Their work schedule and personal conflicts were constantly messing things up. I don't think either one showed up for the first 3 or 4 troop meetings. When I finally had had enough, I held an unannounced parent's meeting at a court of honor. The boys weren't in the room. I told them that I was approaching burnout, and I couldn't keep it up. Therefore, I was asking each of them to do their part. In particular, I was not going to do committee work any more. If someone asked me something that sounded like a committee member's responsibility, I would tell them to talk to the CC. If someone asked me something that sounded like a youth responsibility, I would refer them to the appropriate Junior Leader. I told them that, if I didn't get any help from the ASMs, I was going to have to be solely focused on the boys, and it would be up to them to make sure the other aspects of the troop continued to run. I've been pleased with the turnaround. The committee takes their responsibilities much more seriously and don't involve me unless they really need my input. And the ASMs are trying to give more time, at least when they can. And I have another adult that is probably going to become an ASM next year. He's getting very involved and is proving to be a big help. These parent's meetings don't always work. But if you're humble and honest, and sell them on the reason and need, it may work for you.

About every 2 months we have a couple of our adult leaders (ASM's)who take it upon them selves to conduct an activity that involves their little group. Hmmm, I thought the only "little groups" in Boy Scouts were patrols. Are these boy-led? Are they done under the name of scouting? How did these "little groups" form?

We have a family that's been involved since Tiger Cubs (going on 7 years now). The son attends regularly, serves in position and is always there to help. Dad has been generally a no-show. But his mom has been very involved from the beginning. She's been troop treasurer, serves actively on the committee, participates in BOR, helps with fund raisers and other occasions. But yet, they (the parents) have never ever camped with us. This morning I got a call. Dave (the dad) wants to go camping. He's never done this with us before, what does he need to know? I about fell out of my chair. This is great. I'm looking forward to having him along. Who knows, he may love it and keep coming back out with us. If we had a hard and fast "you must go camping twice a year" rule, we would have lost them a long time ago. I'm certainly glad we didn't.

I agree FOG. I had a couple of boys take Lifesaving and Rifle this year at summer camp. I thought they'd have a tough time. They didn't. In fact, they said they were "easy". I think they were disappointed by that.

Hops - Interesting. I had not heard of or thought of that issue. I'll have to tell my boss that one. He owns the Honda. It's definitely something to watch.

"For those who are opposed to besmirching the wilderness, why don't we start making a difference in your own neighborhood...take the car keys away from your kids and make them get back on the school bus. And next time we need a gallon of milk, let's walk the 6 blocks to the store. Let's all admit it...we're all for saving the environment...as long as it doesnt' inconvenience us. " Well said, Scoutldr. As for Philmont, I've got it, let's drill for gas in half of it and pave the other half over and build condos. Who needs mountains and trees? The business of America is business, let's get cracking. NJ- That's certainly not what I said. My view is, if there is natural gas there and it can be removed without a major impact on Philmont, then go for it. If there's not enough there to worry about, or they can't do it without impacting the environment, then I'm opposed to it. The problem is that you guys are opposed to it without even doing the research and seeing the options. Most supporters of the gas issue probably drive SUV's and don't think twice about burning as much energy as fast as they possibly can. Sorry, once again, the tree huggers immediately assume that we're all evil because we are open to looking at options. I've never owned an SUV. The lowest MPG I've ever had with a vehicle is 24 MPG. And, I've been following the hybrid market and hope to move that direction soon. How 'bout you? hey, would someone explain the reason for all these insults? Good question tall man. Backpacker doesn't seem to be able to make a statement without first hurling an insult or two. I'm not defending FOG. Lord knows he has gone on the attack many times. But this guy could be the next reincarnation of some of our previous members.

When I was a scout, Rifle & Shotgun was a terribly hard Merit Badge. I never had good eyesight, so it was impossible for me to pursue it. Scouts who worked on it almost had to focus exclusively on it at camp. I would guess that a rather small percentage of scouts who started it actually completed it (at least compared to other MBs). Now, nearly all scouts who take it can complete it. In fact, this year at our week of camp, 100% of the scouts who took Rifle MB & Shotgum MB completed it.

Ed, not sure who your question is posed to. If the boy doesn't "know anything", we have to first understand the "why". Is it because he was taught the skill, tested on the skills, and then subsequently forgot the skill? That's one problem. Eamonn talked about the need to put these skills to work. The Advancment Chair should pass that info on the SM. The SM should work with the PLC to improve the program for first year scouts to allow them to use their skills more often and keep them fresh. If he doesn't "know anything" because he can't remember ever doing it, or why he would do it. Then you've got a problem. I believe it is the responsibility of the BOR to reconvene after the scout has had a chance to refresh his memory. If he was rubber stamped, this should come as an issue. Either way, it's ultimately an issue with the program, and the SM needs to know. Unless, of course, the lad is just forgetful and for some of them, there's little you can do about that.

Scoutldr, you are on a roll today. Another good post. I've seen BORs penalize a scout and I don't like it. Asking them to tie it is okay, if you're looking to see what type of response. Here are two good responses: - A bowline? Sure, no problem. Would you like me to tie it one handed or two-handed? Here ya go. (whips out his rope and shows it). - A bowline? Hmm, I always struggle with that one. Let me try. (unsuccessfully tries). Bad answer: - What's a Bowland? I don't think I've ever heard of that. Is that what you use to stop bleeding? The first two demonstrate that the scout was taught and tested on the knot. Okay, maybe he can't tie it perfectly, but he did do the work. The latter sounded like a scout who was rubber-stamped because he was present the night the SPL taught them the Bowline.

Personally, I think the US needs to do whatever we need to do to become energy independent, so we can tell OPEC to shove it. Amen Scoutldr. Backpacker - Sounds like you buy into all the hogwash of the DNC. No sir, I'm not a spokesman for the oil companies. I'm not a fan of the things they do. And, I'm very pro-environment. I believe we have to find a way to live off this land and live in this land at the same time. Balance is what is important. When the scales tilt too far one way or the other, we have problems. And we can't certainly point to examples of that on both sides of the issue.

I've seen eggs done in a plastic bag. Drop it in boiling water. Pretty easy for the boys. Ours did it when they were Webelos.

Let me first say that I love Philmont. I've been their 4 times, and I hope to return again. It's truly one of the most beautiful places on the planet and it gives scouts a great opportunity to explore the vast wilderness, unspoiled from much of civilization. However, I have to agree with FOG on this. My experiences with natural gas fields have been that they are relatively unobtrusive, both from a noise and visual perspective. Natural gas is a clean burning fuel that can be used in many ways, and helps contribute to our own country's bottom line, instead of buying from overseas markets. Backpacker, you're views are typical of those that make "your side" of the argument look ridiculous. You buy into this whole government/oil company/automobile industry conspiracy theory. (I'm sure you loved Michael Moore's movie.) The automobile industry has made progress along the lines of hybrids and electric cars. They are continuing to make advancements that are very exciting. I'm looking forward to seeing how the hybrid SUVs perform. As the consuming public confidence in the technology grows (and their subsequent purchases), more advancements will be made. John Kerry will do nothing to change that. If you don't believe me, ask him why he owns so many SUVs. Oh, that's right, his wife owns them. ;-) Anyway, back to Philmont. I hope it remains the beautiful, unspoiled wilderness that it is today. If natural gas is found, I hope they find a way of getting it out without major impacts to it. Many thanks to Waite Phillips of Phillips Petroleum for his wonderful gift to Scouting.

We incorporate it into our JLT, which we do once a year. On the half-years, when there is no JLT, we will have some sort of orientation (couple of hours). Look at the JLT curriculum. In it there is a guideline for orientation sessions for each position. You can take the common themes from those and put together a set of materials for an orientation. Then, just have individual conversations regarding the specifics of each job.

scoutldr - Another good point. The Scout Spirit requirement is a 24x7 requirement. That's a good example of "raising the bar". A scout may have some discipline problems at school that you know about. As you see him improve at scout functions, you may approve him on Scout Spirit for the lower ranks. But you can also use it a time to talk to him about it being a 24x7 responsibility. Hopefully, by the time he is to the Star & Life ranks, he is understanding that, and his "personality" away from scouts is more reflective of what a scout should be.

You're exactly right Acco. And, while the wording is identical for each rank, I see it as progressively raising the bar. I don't expect as much from a Tenderfoot as I do a Star Scout. I will warn a scout who has spirit "issues" if I believe he is not living up to the expectations of the next level. By the time they get to the upper ranks, they should be living/breathing examples of what Scout Spirit is all about. And, you can point to them as examples for your younger scouts.

A previous employer of mine had a strict gun policy. They had to amend it for the West Texas/New Mexico area. Seems that the employees there need to carry a gun to defend themselves from rattlesnakes. Scouting could probably have a similar exception for rangers and certain individuals on a localized basis. But, I would never support outright permission given to any and all adults for the purpose.

GR8 idea from CubsRgr8. I don't think a letter will do any good. I would turn it over to your committee to work on recruiting some more volunteers. One-on-one invites work better than a letter solicitation. As for general adult leadership, our troop asks every new scout's family to provide one adult to serve for one year either on the troop committee or as an Assistant Scoutmaster. What we've found is that most want to continue their service after the initial year.

I think it's a good article. Merlyn is trying to spin it to fit his particular agenda. Bottom line, this is how nearly every scout leader I know treats the subject. We have many scouts who attend church and claim some form of religious belief. We also have some who don't attend church, and have no particular belief. They accept the BSA's definition of what it means to be reverent, and that's it. That's all we ask for.

I believe the approval subject has been discussed several times. I allow any scout to teach the skills. Boys in positions (PL, SPL, Troop Guide) can sign off on a skill. Adult leaders can as well. I, or another adult, have final say (although I have never questioned a youth leader's signoff). Many of pepper's questions are valid. However, another one he missed on is the one about setting standards for positions of responsibility. The SM Handbook says that troops can set standards for positions. I don't have it with me and I don't remember if it specifies whether it is the PLC or SM responsibility.

BP - No can-do. Look at the problems experienced by GoodKidsMom. No, the problem is in our culture and the headlong rush to be "the best", which, to many parents, means be the fastest on earth to ever earn the Eagle rank. It reminds me of the joke about two athletes that each put in their contract that they had to make $1 more than the next highest paid person in their league. Of course, their salaries go up infinitely. Some parents are that way, "my boy earned Eagle at 12 yrs and 348 days". "My boy earned it at 12 years and 346 days". And so on.

Raffles at pack meetings have been en vogue for generations. I haven't seen it done in troops. While against the rules, I believe it's one of those things that most people look the other way. At least as long as it is kept within the confines of your troop or pack meeting. If you went outside, such as holding a raffle at a community event, then most would frown on it. Another option that may be equally as fun - and possibly more profitable - would be to have a cake auction. Each boy would want his to be the "most expensive", so mom & dad are more likely to pay a ridiculous amount for it. Again, it may be technically against the rules, but I don't think people get to worked up over it. One other thing, don't put out a can for "donations", call it "tips". ;-)

Similar story - Working at Scout Camp in the 80's as Handicraft Director. Decided to do some woodcarving samples prior to camp. About a week before Staff Week I'm carving at home, and my non-locking blade folded up on me, and went right through my thumb. Split it wide open, down the middle of the nail. I still have the scar today. While embarrassing, it made a great object lesson on knife safety. I still use it today.

Yes, this subject has been hashed and rehashed. I'm in the "wish they would take their time camp", but I don't believe in putting in arbitrary rules. Take for instance, a young lad that graduated from our pack into another troop 2 years ago. He's completed his Eagle project and is getting ready for his BOR. Now, I firmly believe that this boy is not deserving of the award and know that his parents pushed, coddled and even did work for him along the way. When he was in Cub Scouts, his parents talked about how he was more mature than others (even though he cried when he didn't get his way). They also talked about how they wanted him to get his Eagle quickly, because he was talking about quitting scouts (this was when he was a Webelos!). In our troop, we handled it like this. At parent's orientation, I give my philosophy about the subject. I share with them the goal of teaching them scouting skills during the first year, so they can then turn around and be teachers to the next group of boys coming up. I also have a "roadmap", if you will, that describes an optimal pace to Eagle. First Class during the first year, Star during the second year, Life during the 3rd, and Eagle during the 4th or 5th. This requires them to earn 2-3 Eagle MBs a year, and should allow them to complete it prior to getting their Driver's license. Most parents find it helpful. So far, I have not run into any of these "rush to Eagle" parents. Maybe I scare them away at the orientation. Nevertheless, I hope it continues to work for us.

Welcome to the campfire.

He means the deeper (or "taller") version of the 12 inch DO. We have a regular and a deep 12" DO. On a campout with 25 people, we made two Cowboy Breakfasts (sounds similar to the sore belly breakfast). The deep one held fine, the regular height cooked over some. We had about 1/2 or so of one left over, but probably a third of the boys wouldn't eat it because everything was mixed together (eewww). I prefer the deeper 12 inch just because it gives you the extra space to make a big dish, and it's nearly impossible to overfill and cause it to cook over the sides.