EagleInKY

Sorry to disagree, but I will. Can you imagine the politics and the mess if councils got involved with each individual leader problem. Just look at this site and the small sub-set of leaders that are here. We can all give you stories of someone who should have been "relieved of responsibility". If the council owned that responsibility, they'd need a whole division to administer it, not to mention the legal hassles. However, by having it be the responsibility of the Charter Organization, they've pushed the responsibility out to those who are (1) closest to the situation and (2) have the most to lose and/or gain. The charter sponsor needs to review the charter agreement they signed with the council. This spells out their responsibility. Included in that is the reponsibilty to recruit leaders. Also, they don't have to think of it as "firing". Each year, the unit recharters. Leaders are rechartered at that time. If the CO wants a change of leadership, that is the easiest mechanism for making it happen. As for your comment regarding council swooping in to save a unit when a CO drops them. Of course they should. They want scouting to thrive. If they don't step in to help out, then units would drop, boys would be discouraged and many, many scouts would never finish their scouting experience. I know in my own experience, our DE was a great help when we ran into problems with the CO. She "swooped" in and helped us find a new sponsor and now the unit is stronger than ever.

This has been discussed at great length. Here are some samples: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=57988#id_58307 http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=64490#id_64529(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

Hey Cereal-guy! No need to apologize here. We all jump in. Just try to keep your eyes open, sometimes the water is rough.

Hey neighbor. Sorry to hear about your problems. If you can find a parent out there that is willing to take on some of the responsibility - maybe even a parent coming up from next year's 1st year scouts - you can approach him and say "I know this scouting stuff, and can practically run the troop. The problem is I'm too young to do it by myself and get the respect that I need from the boys. I'll do everything I can to help you be successful, but we need a more mature person to be SM at this time. How about it? Can we partner together to make this a success?"

The parents in our den always stayed at den meetings. It was kind of nice. We met in our basement. We did a lot of crafts, so it helped t have the extra set of hands. In Webelos, we moved locations, and it was less convenient for them to stay. However, most of them still did. We met in a garage, and during the cold weather, the parents stayed inside the warmth of the house. When we became a troop. Many of the parents continue to stay. Although that has become fewer and fewer. They're always welcome, but definitely understand that the meeting belongs to the boys.

Any old members of the troop around? Ask them, "say, I met old Dave the other day. He was talking about his days in the troop. I was thinking he was an Eagle, but didn't see his name on the plaque. Do you remember?".

Voyageur - Great Quote!

No problems here. Especially if you can get him to give you a cut in the price.

If the adult leaders do not support the uniform, neither will the boys. When adult leaders start setting an example, it's amazing how the boys will fall in line. I think the problem is that there are too many adult leaders out there that think it's geeky to wear the uniform, and that attitude is rubbing off on their kids. It reminds me of a parent who told me they wanted their son to earn Eagle Scout by his 14th birthday. I asked them why. He told me that being a scout was geeky, and he wanted his son to earn his Eagle before he figured that out and wanted to drop out. I was amazed, especially given the fact that the dad in question is an Eagle Scout. Given that attitude, I'm sure that is what will happen.

maddog - why do parents have to feel that they have to be evolved in every aspect of the sons scouting? I believe it is a reflection of the world we now live in. I find that our parents are much more concerned about abductions, car wrecks and abuse than mine ever were. I have a very involved group of parents in my troop. But, at times, they are almost over-involved. It's just the nature of our world today. As for why it's secret, I agree with OGE's point, "Overall, I think the mystique enhances the organization"

Try to get a rush on the charter and have your DE or another council executive present it to the charter organization head. Have them talk about the role of the CO in a successful scout organization. Start off with everyone understanding that role.

Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Danger! This pack is in big trouble. Can it be saved? Yes. But only with some major changes from the top down. Where is the CO in all of this? The COR and the Committee Chair are probably non-existent. Honestly, I'm not sure where to begin. I'd probably get a group of concerned leaders together first. Then approach the CO with the problem. You run the risk that they might blow you off or side with the CM. The CM needs to go. Or, at the least, get trained. A real Committee needs to be formed. A relationship with the CO needs to be re-established. A treasurer needs to control the books. I could go on. I'm sure you'll get some good advice from this group. But I'd be lacing up those running shoes...

I believe you answered your own question. Teasing among friends is not an insult. The challenge, of course, is to distinguish between the two. If I hear a scout call another scout by a nickname, I try to ascertain whether the nickname is welcome or not. That is often clear by the expression of the recipient of the name-calling. If I'm not sure, I'll ask the boy (off to the side, so the others can't hear). If he's okay with it, then it's fine. If he isn't, then I'll put a stop to it. Insult can be defined as "a rude expression intended to offend or hurt". Most insults are verbal, but there certainly can be non-verbal insults (turning your back, sticking out your tongue, or "flipping them off"). You have to ask the question, is he trying to offend or hurt the feelings of the other. If so, then it's an insult and it should be stopped.

I agree with Foto. Set the standard, then make sure all your leaders follow it. Now, I never believe in sending a boy home that shows up without the uniform. But I will talk to him and expect it to not happen again. The only thing I've seen lost on campouts is neckerchief slides. For that reason, we encourage the boys to leave their neckerchiefs at home when we are going on a campout or similar activity. That's not quite as easy with Cubs, but it works fine for Boy Scouts.

yep. We're nuts about this stuff.

Day hikes, Family fun days, overnighters, Day camp, Cub Resident camp, Webelos Resident Camp... The list can go on and on. I would like to say all Cubs getting out of the standard den meeting and into something outside of a "room" atmosphere. Even if it's going to a museum, a field trip or a skating rink, it's doing something. Once a month is ideal, but I would be happy with 6 times a year. Use the age-appropriate guildelines from the G2SS as some supporting documentation to help you line it up by age.

While all of the parents in my troop have e-mail, only about 1/3 of the boys have their own dedicated e-mail address. I guess that parents are still pretty cautious (our guys are all pretty young). So, I usually send e-mails to the parents address. If it's specifically for the boys, I'll often send it to both parent's and boy's e-mail addresses. I'm amazed at how many people (including SWMBO) only check e-mail about once every week or so. It's effectiveness is diluted that way. It's become as important (or more important) communication vehicle for so many of us. Who would go days (or weeks) without checking their postal mailbox???

Bigger impact - CC or CM? Now, in theory, the CC should have as big (or bigger) impact. But I don't see it happening that way in most packs. Without a doubt, the Cubmaster has the biggest overall impact on the program. This is because he is the one in front of the pack, inspiring the boys, encouraging the den leaders, etc. Many leaders, whether in politics, business, church or organizations, have a powerful team in the background that really makes things happen. But, if that leader can't inspire people to see his vision and follow him, it doesn't matter. So, when you ask in the terms of "bigger impact", I have to say it's the Cubmaster.

Awesome. I put a copy in my files. I must admit, the topic title did raise the old blood pressure a little bit. Are you the author?

OGE - Great advice. That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. Spiney - I'm not sure how best to handle the "invitation". I'd like to hear that from others. Cubs - I think I'm in agreement with you. I like the idea of scheduling a scout to come every six months. Then, the "invitation" process is simple. "Hey Johnnie, it's been six months since you made 1st Class, the BOR would like to talk with you for a few minutes to see how things are going and if you need anything from us to help you make it to Star". I could see this working very effectively. For example, Johnny gets his 1st Class in May. The Advancement Chair pencils his name in for November. If he hasn't appeared for his Star BOR by then, he meets with them. If he completed his Star BOR in October, you would pencil him in for April. And so on. Is that what you had in mind?

I mentioned in another post that I have two scouts that have still not completed First Class from last year. There's really no excuse, other than they just don't seem to be motivated to do the work. 6 of 9 First Year scouts had their FC rank by the beginning of Summer, I consider them all to be "FC/FY" scouts. One of the remaining 3 just completed his. Only these two remain. I've seen it mentioned on these boards and in BSA literature that BORs can also be used to check on the advancement status of other scouts. Our young troop has not done this before. I believe this is an opportunity for our troop to do just that. My question is whether any of you have experience using the BOR for this purpose? What types of questions do you ask? Are they successful in encouraging the scout to advance? I'm just looking for some words of wisdom from this illustrious group.

I believe OGE was spot-on in his analysis. A boy can be "active", and meet the requirements for Eagle, and still not live up to the level of "active" that many may expect of an Eagle Scout. However, both scouts may have been extremely valuable to their troop during the period of time that they were active. We certainly don't want to discourage these young men from participating to whatever extent they may participate. When I think about active, I often look at the first year program. To advance to First Class, he must participate in 10 activities or events (not meetings). I figure most troops have 5-6 events per quarter (3 campouts, 1 COH, 1 Service project, 1 other activity). That means, in order to meet this requirement during the first year, the scout only has to attend about 1/2 of the activiites. However, I don't believe a scout that only attends 1/2 of the activities will make First Class during the first year. Unless a troop repeats the advancement work 2 or 3 times a year, the likelihood is that a boy that makes it to only 1/2 of the events will not get taught and tested on the requirements for everything through First Class. The point is, advancement shouldn't be driven as much by a percentage as it is whether they are active enough to do the work required. Another observation I've had... I have two boys (out of 9) that have still not made First Class from last year. 18 months have gone by now. They each have one requirement to do. I (and others) have worked with them, encouraged them, etc. But they just aren't getting it done. These boys are active, in terms of their attendance percentage. However, they take little interest in doing the advancement work (any work, for that matter). So, they come, they sit, they play, but they don't advance. Are they active? Well, physically they are there. But they have not actively engaged their hearts or mind. There were 3 of them that were in this boat together. One recently completed FC. I was hoping that peer pressure may encourage them to move on. But that hasn't happened yet.(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

FOG was banished from the forum a few months ago. I believe he was found guilty of MUS, Multi Username Syndrome. My understanding is that he was posting under multiple personalities, even having arguments with himself. This is not only scary, but against the rules of this forum.

This job would be easy if it wasn't for the people. But seriously, it's difficult to lead when you have someone trying to chop you off at the knees. I've seen this done, and it's very frustrating. There was recently a post about jealousy in leadership, and I believe that is often what causes these situations. Some points to remember: 1) It's not his call. The decision of who is the Scoutmaster lies with the CC and the CO. Having them behind you is priority #1. 2) Just because your son is no longer involved does not mean you have to step down. There are some great scoutmasters out there who have no boys in the unit. In fact, I think the job is sometimes easier for scoutmasters in this situation. I would shore up my support with the CC and COR and make sure everything is solid there. Then, I would have a sit-down with the ASM. Explain to him that you are not planning to step aside, that you love scouting and you want to continue to provide the best program you can for the boys. Explain to him that the call is not his - or yours - to make. It's up to the CO, and they want you to continue leading. If he continues down the path of "your plate is too full", then ask him how he can help to free up something off of your plate (besides the SM role). Perhaps he'd like to help plan the next district campout. Maybe he'll take over the venturing patrol. Whatever it may be, he may find a niche where he can have more responsibility and take some load off of you at the same time. This could be a win-win, if you could work it out. I wish you the best. Ain't this Scouting stuff fun???

Eagle309 - I don't know if it is the skills as much as the social pressure and culture change that Boy Scouting brings. Moving from a parent-led to a boy-led operation can be a real culture shock. Meetings are much more like organized chaos (and sometimes, unorganized chaos ). You can certainly work to strengthen their fundamental scout skills (knot-tying, fire starting, hiking, etc.), but I would focus on preparing them for boy-leadership. First, I would make sure I had a Den Chief from the Boy Scouts. Let this boy lead!!! Second, get them involved with the troop. Start small - a day hike, a troop meeting, or just visit on a campout. Then do an overnighter. Parther with them at Scouting for Food or on a Service Project. Allow them to get to know the older boys over time. When I was a Cubmaster, we were seeing a very high drop-out rate of the scouts that graduated from our pack. I never got an accurate count, but I believe less than 25% were lasting one year! We took a look at the programs and decided to start our own troop. Here are some of the things we found. 1) We did not have a troop that we were closely associated with. Most of the boys went to one of two troops in the area. A small percentage wandered off to other troops that may have been closer to their home or at their church. This meant that our boys were going into a situation where they would be with 1 or 2 of their buddies from Webelos, and grouped in with a patrol of boys that already knew each other. They were essentially "outsiders" from the start, and had trouble breaking in. Therefore, I encourage your boys to try to graduate up as a group, whenever possible. 2) The troops did not have a strong first year scout program. Whether they use NSPs or not, a strong First Year program will help them succeed, not only at Summer Camp, but in their years ahead as well. Take a look and see what you find. We found one troop that ran an "advancement factory" that got them to First Class in a year, and another that treated First Year scouts as indentured servants. It's no wonder boys hated scouts after a few months. So, I would look for a troop that offers a strong FY program, and demonstrates a high retention % of their first year scouts. Ask them how many first year scouts recharter with them the second year.