EagleInKY

Saitou - What role do you play in the troop? Have you ever served as SPL? Is this something you want to do? We really need to know a little more about you before we can give you much advice. Before asking a SM to step down, I would encourage your PLC to step up. This may be tough to do, but they need to take charge of the planning process.

I've been avoiding getting into this fray, but have finally decided to weigh in. After all, it's election day, and we should all have our say. I agree with what Ed and OGE said in their most recent posts. In order to make the program succeed, we must occasionally "tweak" it to our specific needs. I'll give some examples from my troop in a moment. Dan, there is a big difference between "tweaking" the patrol system because of individual troop concerns and rewriting requirements. The BSA has very clear policies regarding advancement and the process for going about changing those for pariticular situations (boys with disabilities, etc.). The BSA has no absolute requirements regarding patrol size. If they did, then my answer would be different. Our troop started last year with 9 new first year scouts. They were not prepared for boy leadership. We had to introduce it to them over time. We implemented the methods to the greatest degree possible, and then have gradually built on them over time. We started with two small patrols (4 and 5 boys), in order to get them introduced to the patrol system. However, we did not have an SPL. For the first several months, our ASM acted like the SPL. PLs also had some of the SPL responsibilities (for example, they rotated opening and closing troop meetings between them). Over time, we moved more and more SPL work onto the PLs. Until, this summer, the boys elected their first SPL. He just happened to be one of the PLs that had been doing much of the SPL work during the previous 6 months. Now, did we "tweak" the program to meet our needs? Yes. Was it successful? IMO, Yes. Was it within the spirit of the Aims & Methods? IMO, Yes. Are the boys better able to run a quality boy-led troop due to being brought slowly into it instead of throwing them in over their heads? IMO, again, Yes. I love this program and believe it is, by far, the best youth program available. I study and review the aims & methods on a regular basis. My opinions about how they should be implemented and how our troop is using them changes as I gain experience. A good leader needs to understand them and use them in every way possible. He also needs to adapt them to fit the personal needs of the boys and their particular state of development. We can do this without changing the "program". We have to do it without changing "policy" (i.e. advancement requirements).

I believe your scout executive would say that no boy should be denied scouting due to financial burdens. Councils provide assistance to low-income families in the way of reduced camp fees, etc. Packs and troops should allow scouts to "earn" their fees as much as possible. Selling popcorn, working at a car wash, selling candy, etc. are all methods that a unit can use to allow boys to earn a portion of their fees. Units who say "the fee is $100 and you have no choice but to pay" may be acting within the letter of the law, but are certainly not exhibiting the spirit of scouting. (IMHO).

Proud Eagle - You nailed me exactly except for the venturing line. I never registered with the council where I went to college. I did work at their scout camp, help with some activities, and socialize with some other scouts at college. These activities got me interested in participating in their lodge, so I started paying fees to them as well, so I could participate both at home and at school.

Our pack and troop has these debates every year. Some don't like doing fundraising- although, as a unit - we do them very well. Some would prefer a large sum to cover all items up front, no fundraising, no "nickle-and-diming" throughout the year. These are the folks that would support the $100+ annual fee. Others prefer a lower annual fee and a "pay as you go". This is often eases the financial burden and allows families to make decisions on a case-by-case basis. The third option (the one I prefer), is to come up with that annual amount you need, and then use your popcorn profits to bring it down to a reasonable amount for each boy. This is what our pack does, and it seems to be fairly well received. We have not gone as far as crediting individual boys for their efforts, but it has been discussed. Our sales have always been good, so we haven't needed to resort to that. In our troop, we still do "pay as you go". This has been because of the wide variety of costs for activities. We're going to reevaluate that this year.

I've already cast my vote this morning. I hope everyone else does the same. I'm always so dismayed by people who say that they just aren't interested.

Sounds to me that the Scoutmaster added to the requirements. He's requiring both a POR and a SM approved project.

Bob - The "selecting quality leaders" brochure is a good guideline for selecting the Cubmaster/Scoutmaster/Varsity Coach. And, if PMHO has a strong CO and committee to work with, that can help her fill the Cubmaster role. However, I was talking about the more general topic of getting help from all the parents in various ways. There are loads of unused talent in every group. Figuring out how to put them to work is a big task. The ideas I was sharing was targeted more toward finding help of all kinds to assist in making the unit successful.

Unc - Great advice and a nice sylabus. I may use it someday as well. PMHO - Don't give up yet. You need to work at your recruiting skills. This is, unfortunately, one area that the BSA doesn't provide much in the way of training. Uncleguinea provides some good advice. Consider what he has to say. The bottom line in recruiting is getting parents to buy into a vision. I approach it like this: 1) Sell them on the vision. 2) Get them involved in incremental ways (Unc's ideas fit here) 3) Expect nothing less. When you're selling parents on the vision - and this is important - don't sell it the same way you sell it to the boys. To the boys you sell the adventure, fun and excitement that scouting brings. You want to touch on that, but the things parents want to hear are: - How scouting will help my boy be a better leader and a better person. - How it helps with academics. - How it may lead him into his career. - How it may help him obtain scholarships and a job someday. - etc. These things are important to parents, even parents of 1st graders (especially if they have an older child approaching HS or college age). Let me also refer you to another set of resources on volunteers. I also serve as our children's ministry leader at church. Recruiting volunteers is a challenge for us there as well. Last year, we used some training materials from Promiseland, the children's ministry of Willow Creek Church. Their 2003 conference was entitled "Got Volunteers?" and was all about recruiting, training and retaining volunteers. If you don't mind listening to some Christian messages, there is some good stuff here that can be applied to scouting. This is the website of the materials: http://www.promiselandonline.com/conf/03wccc/index.asp The first session ("Call Volunteers to Action") is the most appropriate for what you are facing. I've included a link directly to the video below. (But be warned, this is a very large file. I wouldn't link on this unless you have broadband, there are smaller versions available from the website.) About 31 minutes into it, she addresses different methods of asking volunteers for help. She talks about several unsuccessful ones (bribery, begging, guilt), as well as how to successfully ask for help. It's funny you mentioned you "beg for help", because she talks about that approach. http://209.242.58.17/2001/Message/PLC2003Session1Message3.wmv (remember, this is a LARGE FILE).

Not sure who made the one you are speaking of. You can find a number of folding shovels on the various camp gear retailers websites.

Welcome to the campfire!

Marcheck - I haven't heard any name calling or anger espoused by anyone in this thread. We've debated this at long length and in many threads prior to this one. While a large # of us may not like the uniform in its present state, I think most agree that there is no real viable solution. That's because there are so many conflicting interests and desires. I think someone nailed it on the head when the made the analogy to sports uniforms and pointed out that they are all suited for a particular purpose. However, in scouting, we serve several purposes (outdoor, community service, advancement, etc.). Therefore, there is no "one size fits all" solution. We asked you for ideas, and you gave one that was shot down by almost everyone. I promise you that the majority of boys in my troop would rather wear the uniform of today than what you have proposed. As for the military not attracting youth like it used to, I think you're assuming something that isn't necessarily true. I think there is still a lot of interest in the military from our youth. At least where we are there is. I wish the BSA would do two things: - Simplify the current uniform (reduce insignia, etc.) and add some more modern pants (cargo, convertibles, etc.) It's main purpose would be ceremonial (COH, Color Guards, Banquets, BOR, most troop meetings). - Develop a standard "class B" (forgive me). This could be a nice polo (long and or short sleeve) that could be a common "comfortable" uniform. It would be perfect for travel, many types of activities and some meetings. This is what I would wear to a Jr. High roundup. - Troops and camps could continue to create t-shirts and other activity uniforms as they see fit. I believe this alternative uniform could be provided at the same cost of (or even less than) our uniform today.

Similar discussion earlier this year (started by yours truly): http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=55492#id_55492 We allow siblings on some campouts. These are generally campouts where it's less of a "scouting" theme and more of a general fun time. For example, last year we went to Mammoth Cave National Park. We invited families, two brought siblings. The rule was that a parent from the family had to be there and take responsibility for the non-scout. As for any other guests, they have to be of scout-age and are being recruited to join. We also require them to come to at least one meeting so we can meet them, explain the ground rules and get a permission slip signed.

Fling - I would bet that the person responsible for filling ad space is not aware of the policy. I would bet that if Joe's liquor store wanted to place an ad and it said "pick up a 12 pack for your next campout", they would not allow it. A lot of these lazer places have other things to do as well, such as bumper cars, mini-golf and arcades. They might be justifying it by that.

Proud one - Congratulations on your first meeting as "defacto SM". PNS has a valid suggestion, if you are willing to take the chance that interims often become permanent. It's just the way it is in volunteer-land. I volunteered to be "interim children's minister" at my church, and have just recently moved out of it (almost 4 years later). Your answer regarding following policy is spot on. Tell them that you may not know the right answer all of the time. But you'll find out and make the call according to policy. SM conferences are tough at first, especially being younger. Get another adult (maybe the CC or a Committee member) to participate with you at first. This may ease the pressure. For Eagle help, get with your district advancement chair for help. Seems like I remember you are in Seneca? If so, you've got a great DAC. Regarding Philmont, if you feel confident in the boy's ability to participate, then I would have no problem with you signing it. Be honest, and put "ASM" next to your name. If you aren't sure whether the boy is ready or whether the SM would have signed it, I would recommend you calling the SM for advice. I wish you the best of luck. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions that you think I may be able to help you with, since I'm local.

We've had this dicussion before. It all depends upon how it is planned. Let's say it goes down this way. The PLC decides they want to do lazer tag. They know it's against the G2SS so they declare it an "unofficial activity". They pick a date and communicate it to the troop in troop meetings. It's mentioned at the troop committee meeting as well. All the while, they're saying "but it's not an official scout event". Then, I feel you are doing what Bob is alluding to, teaching the boys how to circumvent the rules. Now let's say a group of scouts get together after a meeting, on the phone, on the school bus, in the school lunchroom, or wherever, and decide they want to do this. They get on the phone or e-mail notify everyone that they are going to play lazer tag. They tell them it's not an official event, and that they're just having fun. Then that is a legitimate activity. As Ed says, the BSA doesn't control every aspect of their lives.

ScoutLdr - I don't know if this was "legal" or not. But, when I was in college, I joined the lodge in the council where my school was located. I was still a registered scouter back home, but I wanted to participate in functions closer to school. They didn't make me do it, I did it voluntarily. Since I was participating in the tap-out team and attending functions, it only made sense to be a member of that lodge.

Welcome to the forums. I agree with the idea of getting them in front of the group. When I was Cubmaster, we tried to give every den an opportunity to be in front at some time. Whether it was advancement, a skit, or just getting up and telling what they've been up to. They feel like they are part of the program that way.

Good question acco. Not sure if this would be an example, but here goes... What if a Scout is a great all-around guy, but hates to camp. He goes when he has to. He has the minimum requirement. He's great at everything else. He's just not the "outdoors type". Now, since OA is an honor camping society, you would think there would be an issue here. Perhaps he wouldn't get elected, but that's not likely considering he's well-liked in every other way. Not sure if that would be an example or not. I've got a scout that fits this description.

Foto - He also picked on Scoutreach. (which I guess is part of council).

I agree with you Stapler guy! (Figured you hadn't been called that in a while).

We are talking about a history of repeated wrongdoings by one individual. What type of wrongdoings? If they are of a illegal and public manner, then the Council would have it in their rights to deny membership (or maybe it's national). But, if it's just that the guy "has an attitude" and people don't like him. Well, that's clearly the CO's responsibility. Think of it another way. Let's say you are an active CO with a great unit going. Your Scoutmaster has a disagreement with someone at the council (as probably all of us has done at one time or another). The council could step in and kick him out? Against your will? You gotta be careful about what you ask for.

A pair of regular khaki pants (without all the pockets and a shade of white) and a standard button down shirt (maybe blue). Sounds like you'll get confused with your basic everyday computer repair guy. Cool, huh? The problem with that - as you'll see here - is in the eye of the beholder. Your suggestion would be rejected by 90% of my scouts. Oh, maybe several would like it more than the current one, but they still wouldn't call it cool. About 1/2 of my guys would want it to be more like a sports uniform. A jersey of some kind. Maybe the unit # in big numbers across the back. Rank would be a cool logo worn over the heart. PLs and SPLs would have a special insignia on their sleeve. Heck, they'd probably rename them "team captains". Some of my guys would probably want some sort of grunge or sloppy thing. You know, the kind with the pants dragging the ground. Black is best, but certainly some sort of drab color. No formal insignia either. Each should be able to make up his own. A few of my guys would probably like the camo/outdoor jungle look. Cargo pants are a must with these guys. Cool and comfortable in the outdoors is a must. So what's the point of all this. Tweaking the uniform is painful but do-able. They could come up with some cooler pants (cargo for sure). They could simplify the insignia to make it less "military" for you. But none of that will radically change what you are complaining about. Or, they could go your route. Change it dramatically. Come up with a whole new uniform. Problem is, no matter what you choose, it will turn of the majority. You won't get any redesign that is agreed to by 50% of active members. It just won't happen. So, until a miracle along that line occurs, don't expect anything more than tweaking.

Barry - I always read your posts because you exemplify boy-leadership in everything you do. In fact, you challenge me as much as anyone on this board to do the best I can in this area. I agree with 99.9% of what you've had to say. However, I'm not with you on the SPL being responsible for teaching leadership. I love the concept, but don't see it happening. I certainly encourage the boys to teach each other in lots of ways (scout skills, cooking skills, etc.). However, when it comes to teaching leadership, I believe that falls squarely on my shoulders. I do use the SPL and ASPL as aides in this, but I'm the one ultimately reponsible. Maybe it's because it is what I enjoy the most??? Because I certainly do. JLT is one of my favorite activities of the year. I try to make it fun and enlightenting to them. I love to see the lightbulb go off when they understand shared leadership. I also enjoy the SM conferences and the SM one-on-one training for the positions. It's truly one of my favorite "jobs" as Scoutmaster. Also, I think back to my days as a youth (hard as it may be as the years turn by). I was a strong leader, I now know. But, at the time, I wasn't really aware of it. Or, if I was aware of it, I really didn't know why. I think I taught leadership by example. But, I don't think I ever taught leadership directly. Frankly, it's because I really didn't understand leadership until nearly a decade later. Scouting gave me the tools and the knowledge and a place to apply it in a fun way, it just took me a while to understand it. So, for now, I'm hanging on to this responsibility. But I will take this as a challenge to figure out how I can get our junior leaders to do more to teach good leadership down the line. Thanks

Wow Marcheck, you're certainly opening up bunches of issues. You didn't used to go by the name of FOG, did you??? As I understand it, Scoutreach is meant to deliver the program to communities where it is difficult to survive on its own. This includes many areas that are characteristically poor, have unstable families, or have difficulty retaining leaders or sponsors. I have seen Scoutreach programs in both inner-city and rural areas. Largely for different reasons. In most areas, I believe, Scoutreach is funded by the United Way or other agencies. You can call it Scout Welfare if you like. I believe it is a way to expose more kids to Scouting principles, and hopefully make a long-term impression on their lives.