EagleInKY

dluders - I, too, feel your pain. I was in a similar situation about a year ago, but with a new CC compared to your "experienced" one. First, let's get at the root of the problem. The other posters are right... and wrong. Semper is correct in that the examples you gave are tasks that other committee members are supposed to do. However, you are correct in that it is the CC's job to make sure they get done. It's not as much a problem of "our Troop Committee Chairman's inability to help me", as much as it is the Troop Committee Chairman does not do the overseeing and follow-up that is required of the job. Here's what I did, and it's paid off. At your next COH, call a parent's meeting at the beginning of it. What I did was not tell them about the parent's meeting. The COH was to start at 7:00, but I held the parent's meeting from 7:00-7:30. The COH actually didn't start until 7:30. (The boys were in the back working on their ceremonies). At this meeting, don't start off with this problem. Save it to the end. First, go over some good things. Tell them about exciting things that are coming up. Talk about the growth you've seen in their boys. Tell them how much you enjoy being their Scoutmaster. After you've broken the ice, tell them that you've got one concern, and it's a big one. Tell them you are getting burned out. This may scare some of them (I think some thought I was about to quit). But, luckily, you know it can be resolved, if we just operate the way the BSA tells us to operate. This means that committee members need to do their jobs (treasurer, activities, popcorn, etc.). You need to be out of the administrative aspect of the work, so you can focus on the boys. That's what it's all about, isn't it? They will most likely agree with you. Ask that if anyone in a position can't fulfill its responsibilities, then let the CC know. And, if anyone would like to do something different, or step up to a position, let that be known as well. Next, I would say that "our CC is a great scouter... He's doing all he can, but his job takes him on the road a great deal. I think we should get someone to step up as an Assistance CC to help with the role." (This "Assistant" may later become CC if it works out). Finally, I would end on the note that training is important. There is a great Troop Committee Training module that helps explain the roles and responsibilities very well. Once the committee is reorganized, get them to take that training so they better understand their jobs. I wish you the best of luck. Our organization is coming around. It's been seven months since our meeting and we're getting close to where I think we should be.

Dan - 7.If the troop has a Webelos night where all of the Webelos thinking about joining are invited that night, run from this troop. I don't get it. The Webelos Open House night is part of the process laid out by the BSA. It's a great opportunity to get as many people together at once so they can ask questions and get a good feeling for the program. Our Webelos Open House went something like this: 1) Gathering game. ASPL had all the boys playing. 2) Opening, Webelos formed a patrol line like other patrols. 3) SPL made some announcements 4) I (SM) welcomed everyone and told the Webelos parents which room to go to for a parents orientation/Q&A session. 5) Scouts went off to work on different skills, Webelos were grouped with first year scouts. I think they talked about winter camping, bacause the Webelos were invited on a campout in November. 6) I spent about 30 minutes with the parents, explaining the program and answering questions. 7) Parents came back in to see them doing some planning for the campout. 8) Boys played a fun game of crab soccer. 9) We had one big circle-up, presented some awards, had a scoutmaster's minute, and dismissed. I'm assuming you are thinking that the troop is just putting on a show and you're not really seeing the "real deal". There may be some truth to that. I certainly encourage our PLC to have everything buttoned up for that meeting to make sure it comes off relatively smooth. But overall, it's just another troop meeting, just with a bigger crowd. Now, to that point, a Webelos is invited to attend any meeting they want. We've had a few do that. Sometimes a younger brother is there that is a Webelos, and we'll try to include him in the games or something. While less formal, it probably gives him a better picture of what a "normal" meeting is like. But overall, it's not much different. Finally, I can say from our own experience as Webelos IIs, we visited a troop on a night they invited us as a den. They were totally unprepared, not in uniform, the SM was over 30 minutes late (not in uniform), no meeting plan, not even much "fun" for the boys. It was a disaster, and no one wanted to go to that troop after that.

I heard on the news last night that Boy Scouts - I believe it was in India - are gathering clothes up from people across the country and delivering them to the stricken areas. EDITED PART-> Indonesia has the largest scouting organization (larger than the USA). I would think that scouts will play a big role in the disaster recovery and cleanup. I tried hitting their website and it was down.(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

Oops - I should have addressed my comment to Twocubdad, not Barry. My bad.

Young men, when they get their first chance to really lead, often stick their chest out and demonstrate how they came to such an awesome level of power. Most of them just walk around with a puffed up chest and spout a few macho lines. Some, however, do something really foolish. Assuming this has been a good kid all along and never done anything like this before, I would take the approach of sitting down in a SM conference with him. I would do this ASAP. I would first make sure he understood his mistake and is truly remorseful for it. Second, I would try to get him to determine the appropriate discipline. I would go along the lines of having him apologize to the boys on the trip and teach them about fire safety. I would then inform the committee of the actions you've taken. Explain the rationale behind it. Again, assuming this is a first-time offense, I would not open it up for further discussion. I would try to get the discussion to end at that. The reason is that this type of stuff can linger and fester forever. If he is truly sorry, you won't have to worry about him doing something this foolish again. They don't need to be second-guessing every decision or action that you make. Now, if this isn't the first time he has done something like this, or if you are not convinced that he "gets it", then I would turn to the committee for advice. The last thing you want to do is tell the committee "trust me, it's fixed" and then have him do it again in six months. You'll lose credibility (and probably several young scouts).

Barry - We have over 60 boys in our pack. Probably 50 or so race each year. We also have a leaders race (about 12-15 usually), a girl scout race (another 10 or so), an open legal class (about 20), and an open "modified" (i.e. no holds barred) (another 20 or so). Plus we have the pack championship (12 boys). We start at about 8:30 and wrap up around 2:00. We do donuts in the morning, pizza for lunch and a bake sale. The system works much faster than you would think. For 100 boys, with a 4 lane track, I think it would come out to only around 600 heats. But I don't remember the math off the top of my head.

nlds - I agree. Furthermore, what happens when a scout transfers from a council that is not as strict (such as mine) to KA's council? Our council doesn't even require blue cards! Scoutmasters are supposed to verify that the process is followed, but no one follows up. I encourage the boys to keep the blue cards in a safe place, but there's no real penalty if they do lose them. What happens if they move to one of these strict councils? What happens if they do keep them, and they find four MBs signed by the same counselor? I'm with sst3rd, they are making this out to be far more complicated than it needs to be. MBs are supposed to be fun and give the boy exposure to different aspects of life. They are not meant to turn them into politicians, EMTs, Lifegaurds, dentists, or any other profession. Let the guys have fun, make sure that the MB Counselors aren't "giving them away", and let go!

Our past directors serve as the cooks at Woodbadge. They bring a lot of fun and spirit to the course. You can tell they love woodbadge, and it's their way of giving back.

Some good advice here. I strongly encourage the 1-on-1 visit with the parents. Take another leader with you. Don't make it sound like you're teaming up. Tell them you want to work with them, but you have to protect the safety of all of the boys. Also, if they can give you advice on how to best deal with him, you will try to make adjustments to your style and to the meetings that may have a positive influence on him. Second, reiterate that they must stay with him as a Tiger parent. But, there is no reason why you can't insist on their presence ongoing. We have a second year boy scout who's mom or dad is present at nearly every meeting and event. They do this because they know he is more likely to behave if they are nearby. Note that they are often not in the same room with him, but the fact that they are in the building has a calming effect sometimes. The rules and consequences is a great tool. We used it throughout cub scouts. we also used the behavior candle. We lit it at the beginning of the meeting. When someone broke a rule, the candle went out. When the candle burned all the way down, we gave them a reward (usually a pizza party).

I believe here in KY a youth can get an id card similar to a driver's license. I think there is a small fee for them. I'm sure other states do the same. I would contact whoever handles your drivers licenses and find out.

Ed - I don't know that I've heard that it wasn't working. Certainly, there are some that don't like it. But some just don't like change. I think the course works pretty well as is. I could make a few suggestions, but they are mainly centered around strengthening the patrol aspect of the program. I don't think it's worth having a seperate Cub Woodbadge. These were not very well attended, since most Cub Leaders are just "passing through" to Boy Scouting. It's a huge personal investment to take woodbadge. Taking it twice is an even bigger investment. SWMBO and other spouses probably would not like it. I see two issues with the program as it is today. One, I think too many scouters are coming in with very little experience. We had leaders in our Woodbadge course that had only been in a few months. They had very little experience to pull from. Most of these were Cub scout leaders whose pack pays for the course. I would much rather them come after being involved for a couple of years. The second issue I had was the focus on lectures during the first phase. I would much rather them spend time putting us in situations as a patrol, and then analyze the results. I think you learn much more by your experience (and failures). Just my 2 cents worth. Overall, I wouldn't condemn the course over the issues I've raised. I would suggest further tweaking to improve it over time.

Also, at the troop level, there's a great training module referred to as the "Troop Committee Challenge" (aka Troop Committee Training). Our district didn't even offer this, so I went out and bought the curriculum myself. It's a great eye-opener for the committee as they discover what they are supposed to (and not supposed to) do.

Just curious, how do the boards know? Perhaps there's additional info being given to you all. Among the stack of information we get on an Eagle candidate, none of it includes the names of MB Counselors. In fact, the only people that know the name of the counselors (in our "system") is the scout and the scoutmaster (or whoever processes the blue card).

Get the committee guidebook and the scoutmaster handbook and compare the two roles. They are distinctly different. The two people must work well together, but they can be very different personalities. The unit leader is responsible for the program. The committee chair is responsible for the "ways and means" to support the program. If you were a corporation, the unit leader would be like the COO, making sure operations were carried out according to plan. The Committee Chair is more like the president of the company, making sure everything the COO has what he needs (money, resources, people, etc.). The COR is likely to talk to the unit leader more than the CC. The reason is that the unit leader is the public face of the organization. Many people won't even know who the CC is. Many CCs don't regularly attend meetings. Unfortunately, many of them don't wear uniforms either. But that's another topic. The unit leader is often the one with their "butt on the line", because they are the public guy. Just like the coach of a football team, they are often the one that takes the heat during a bad season. Seldom does the GM feel the heat from the public. However, the CC needs to be prepared to step in and help with the tough situations when the unit leader needs it. One of their key roles is insuring safety and discipline within the organization. Good luck.

There are two extremes in pinewood derby scoring that I abhor. The first is double-elimination. Our pack did that until I took over as CM. I tried to get it stopped my first year (I was Tiger leader) and I heard all of the excuses ("it will take to long", "no one will understand it"). We changed to a form of the perfect n system and everyone loves it. The other extreme that I don't like is the "total time" method. They race a car once in each lane, add up the total seconds, and give the winner based upon total time. It takes all the competitiveness out of it. To me, it's part of the "touchy-feely, we're not keeping score, we're just racing against the clock" mentatlity that's too present in just about everything we do. But I digress. Our pack uses a form of the perfect n method. I don't think it's in the majority of units though. I think more are moving to timer based systems

Anarchist - Your experience is similar to mine. While my son hasn't been elected to OA yet, we've seen a great decline in the program here from my days as a scout. I've written about this in some other posts. I'm glad that OA is thriving in some areas. If the scouting program was as poor as the OA is here, we'd be in big trouble.

I don't like these artificial limits people come up with. A person can easily qualify to counsel more than seven merit badges. I would guess that a person with a broad amount of experiences and a boy scouting background could counsel 20 or 30 or more easily. The question I ask is "why?". Consider this scenario: Let's say this person has a broad experience in government and private business. He can do the citizenships, American business, American heritage, personal management, etc. Let's say has been a scouter since he was a Cub Scout. He can do all the basic scout skills - pioneering, camping, hiking, etc. He's already blown past your seven limit, and we haven't even talked about his hobbies. Let's say he used to have a landscaping business. He could easily counsel Landscape Architecture. However, since he has this limit, he doesn't put it down. A scout wants to work on Landscape Architecure, but can't find a counselor. What is he to do? It's unfortunate that there could be a qualified counselor right down the street that he didn't know about because of the 7 badge limit. IMHO, this limitation only hurts the scouts. They need to have options for MB Counselors to go to. Don't be too discourated, however. At least your district is doing this. Ours does not. It's still every troop for themselves. I don't like it because it forces us into the situation Laurie described. We have 3 or 4 people that do most of the counseling, and then we search for others to fulfill those we can't support.

Thanks Semper... I did a search on Amazon and it looks like he's got some good stuff. I'll have to take a look at these. I've gotten some ideas from these websites: http://www.teambuildingusa.com/ http://www.wilderdom.com/games/gamesspecific.html http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/

Why use the patrol method? Because it's core to Scouting. BP said that the patrol method was the basis upon which we build scouting. Now, this is where I'll have to duck. Boy Scouting is still the cornerstone of the scouting movement. Cub Scouting is primarily a stepping stone into Boy Scouting. Venturing is an extension of Boy Scouting - an attempt to keep older boys interested and involved. That's why Woodbadge spends most of its time in the Boy Scout model and the program is structured around the troop/patrol setting. Now please don't take me wrong. Cub Scouting is a great program, and, while venturing is still trying to find its legs in many parts of the country, I hope it works out to be what it's meant to be. But Boy Scouting is the core of the program. We can debate the reasons, and I believe their are valid ones, but that's another topic. That's why it makes sense to use the Boy Scout model for WB.

Welcome to the campfire. Pour a cup of java and have fun! I look forward to sharing with you.

ps56k - You can't insert in the middle (they are included in time sequence). You could spin-off a new thread, however, which would be appropriate in this case. However, since we're here, I'll go ahead and address your question. We do JLTC once a year after the fall elections (we also have elections in the spring). 1. All green bars are expected to attend. That's set out before they run for office that they will agree, if elected, to participate in JLT. 2. We also strongly encourage any other person who holds a position and has not previously attended JLT to attend. 3. Third, we encourage anyone else who hasn't attended JLT to attend. 4. Anyone else (that would be someone holding a position and has previously attended JTL) is also welcome. We try to limit it to around 10-12 people. Our troop is still small, so that's doable. I also try to get an adult who hasn't seen it before to attend. This helps them get an appreciation of the boy-led program as well.

We actually did have a period where some Venturers came out and led our patrol. I don't know if that's typical or not, but it was effective. Your course instructors must have been different from ours. Our staff was constantly reminding us that we were acting as scouts in a patrol and pointing out challenges along the way. Our patrol was very dysfunctional, so it presented some special learnings for us. They also pointed out things we did that could easily be employed at home in our units. The content of the lectures were pretty boring to me. But I've been in tons of management, teamwork and leadership training. Even so, it was interesting to see it applied to scouting. While I didn't get that much out of that part of it. Some of the people did. Especially those who were more blue collar workers or those that had not been out in the professional field very long. To me, the most powerful part of WB is the ticket. Taking what you have learned, coming up with some real goals, and forcing yourself to follow through with them, is very powerful. Four of my five ticket items are things that I already wanted to do, I just hadn't made time for them. This forces me to do it, which has value in and of itself.

Welcome to the forums dell-ray. And a Merry Christmas, too. (We still use the "C Word" here. I hope you enjoy your visits here. It's getting cold, put another log on the fire.

Merry Christmas Terry, Hops & OGE. Thanks for what you do. Don't let this get you down. I wouldn't want to have to make these decisions either.

Dan, I hope you weren't counting me in the Eagle count. I don't think you were. I think Foto's Case 1 vs. Case 2 assessment is pretty good. A lot of people who "haven't drank the coolaid yet", come to training and think we're some kind of weird cult. Explaining to them why we do these things before launching into it would be more effective, IMHO. I don't have a good answer for the training problem. I think doing unit-level training is much more effective. That's what we've done this past year and it's been a big improvement. But, we've got some people (including me) who are capable of teaching. Some units may not be that fortunate. Also, if they are not teaching the right thing, then you've got bigger problems. The idea of mandating training sounds good, but we can all see problems with that as well. Our council is doing a Scouting University next month. It's the first time they've done this (it's always just been a pow wow for Cubs). I'm looking forward to it. I hope it's well attended.