EagleInKY

I expect a boy to be properly dressed for a BOR. In my mind, that means the appropriate, complete field uniform. Now, I've had lads show up without a neckerchief, or with white socks, or without a belt, etc. I've gone ahead and sent them to the BOR. Usually, the BOR will ask why they aren't in complete uniform. That usually solves the problem for any future ones. I've only not sent a boy in for his BOR once. He came to the meeting in regular street clothes. I think he had some excuse about running out of time to get dressed. He was supposed to go for his Tenderfoot BOR. I told him he'd have to do it next time, when he was in uniform. To me, it's no different than going for a job interview. We are expected to dress appropriately for the situation. It teaches responsibility and respect for the occasion. It's not punishment, it's just an expectation.

I don't think a boy can be a real effective green bar leader, if he hasn't attended JLT. That's why we make JLT attendance manditory for a boy who wants to serve in one of those positions. The elections, however, take place before JLT. The JLT dates are advertised and a boy running for a green bar position knows he is expected to be there. (This is referring to our Fall election cycle). We do the JLT in the late August - Early September timeframe, which seems to have very little conflicts from the standpoint of sports. I have no problem saying "This is very important, and you need to make it your priority for this weekend. If you have something else scheduled, you should put this first". Now, if a boy has the state championships in his sport that weekend, we'll be understanding, schedule around it or have a special meeting with him. But if it's just a "run of the mill soccer game", then I have no problem telling him that he must attend. In the Spring, we're planning to do something similar to what Barry suggests. We're going to have a mini-JLT, focusing on their new offices, having their new leader orientation all wrapped up together with it. I think that's a good mid-year approach.

I think the Boy Scout Action Shirt looked good. I'd like to see something like that become the uniform. It could be much more functinoal than our current field uniform.

A couple of years ago, we outgrew our CO. Now, if there was a different preacher there, we probably could have worked something out. This guy was the "kids should be seen and not heard" type, if you know what I mean. Having 60 Cub Scouts there once a month was more than he could stand. Even though our guys were pretty well behaved, considering their age, it was just not going to work out. Things came to a boil, so we brought in our DE. She met with the minister and realized that there was no getting around it. He wanted us to leave, and gladly "released" us from the charter. Another, younger, growing church down the road welcomed us with open arms. The DE met with us and their leadership. A month or so later the paperwork was signed and we were up and going. Even though it was painfulat the time. It was the best thing that happened to us.

Welcome to the forum. I can't help you with the song. I've got a German employee I can ask next week if you haven't got an answer by then.

We set expectations with the parents up front that they will buy a uniform. Usually, this means buying pants and shorts. I haven't had any grumble yet. You're talking about a cost of about $40 a year (or $10 if you shop on eBay). For most of us in the good-ole US of A, that's not a big deal. Or, it shouldn't be. And, if the problem is with the boy's attitude toward the uniform, then you are correct about the scout spirit issue. I had a boy back-talk me about wearing a uniform on a recent trip. He was coming up for a SM conference the following week. I asked him if he could think of anything recently that he did that did not live up to the scout oath and law. He mentioned the incident. I went ahead and approved him (2nd class). But, if it happens again, we'll have another talk.

So Treve - Tell us the rest of the story. Did he ever go back? Did he do a new project? Was he approved at a later time?

But, if he WERE a pig, he's sure taste good with eggs!!!

I must admit, I've had the same concern about posting information that should be confidential. If anyone who knew me read my posts, they could probably figure out it was me. I have been concerned about talking about a boy or another leader, and then - some day - them finding out what I said on this board. I'll probably continue to post as I have, but the concern remains. Incidentally, I would have no problem with a poster that needs to protect anonymity with a sticky issue using another moniker to post the issue. I would, however, have problems if the poster started having conversatinos back-and-forth between his multiple "personalities" in order to influence the thoughts on the board or to justify a position. That, I believe, is the problem we had with the multiple personalities of FOG.

le V - "mistakes are the trail markers to success. " I like it. I feel a Scoutmaster's minute coming on. Thanks.

John D - I don't disagree, it's just the reality of the program that is there today. Now, I will clarify one thing. I don't think the majority are "earned" at Summer Camp. I would bet that about 1/2 of those were started at summer camp, the boys brought home partials, and then completed them on their own. Also, we're a young troop (mostly 1st & 2nd yr scouts). The first year at summer camp they usually take Basketry, Indian Lore, Leatherwork, etc. Other than Swimming, they usually don't take anything hard. The older boys tend to not take as many Merit Badges because they ones they take require more work. Therefore, I think if you look at a first year scout, most of the MBs are from camp. Get to a 3rd year scouts, and it's probably closer to your 20-30%. I'm not sure of the percentages. When I get a chance, I'll try to figure it out.

I assuming you are asking about what is the woodbadge course, not what is the "wood badge" (i.e. the beads). I noticed that no one has responded to this. It could be because a lot of woodbadgers like to keep a cloak of mystery around it, or it could be that they think it's too simple a question. So, here's a simple, non-mysterious answer. Woodbadge is the most advanced training offered by the BSA for its adult leaders. It's traditions date back to Baden Powell. While many will debate the format and value of the course (as you can see on this forum), it still remains one of the great leadership traditions in the BSA. For more info, check the website. www.woodbadge.org

I have to admit to not being "old school" or "new school" on this issue. In fact, I'm not quite sure where I stand. I must admit to earning many of my Merit Badges as a scout at troop meetings. Most were earned at Summer Camp. I believe I earned 27 badges, of them, probably 5 or less were earned by going out and finding a counselor. Maybe there were more, I simply don't remember (a problem with turning 40). That number (5) seems very low to the "old schoolers" and probably high to the "new schoolers". I would guess that the ratio is pretty close to that in our troop. Most Merit Badges have been earned at Summer Camp. We do a little MB work in troop meetings, but we don't allow it ALL to be done there. We force the boys (and the counselors) to do some of the work outside of the troop meeting setting. I would say that about 1/2 of the boys have taken a blue card to get someone to counsel them in a merit badge. When thinking about this subject, I keep thinking about a document written by our founder. He wrote an article entitled "The Standardization of Badges". In it, he says "I hope that the compilers are not losing sight the aim and spirit of the Movement by making it into a training school of efficiency through curricula marks, and standards. Our aim is merely to help the boys, especially the least scholarly ones, to become personally enthused in subjects that appeal to them individually, and that will be helpful to them. We do this through the fun and jollity of Scouting; by progressive states they can be led on naturally and unconsciously, to develop for themselves their knowledge. But if once we make it into a formal scheme of serious instruction for efficiency, we miss the whole point and value of the Scout training, and we trench the work of the schools without the trained experts for carrying it out." He goes on to say that ""Our standard for badge earning -- as I have frequently said -- is not to attain a certain level of quality of work ( as in school ), but the AMOUNT OF EFFORT EXERCISED BY THE INDIVIDUAL CANDIDATE. This brings the most hopeless case on a footing of equal possibility with his more brilliant or better-off brother." I find this to be very different than the philosophy of MB counselors today. Many of them are just trying to make it easy for the boys (MB Mills). The others are trying to turn boys into young medics, dentists, chemists or atomic scientists. Testing them to the degree that requires a deep and thorough understanding of the subject. The fact is, neither group is correct. The boy should learn - that is a definite. But the emphasis should not be as much on "did the boy become an expert" as it should be "did the boy learn something about this area in a fun an interesting way?". I've known several scouts who developed an interest in their chosen profession while working on Merit Badges. I believe that is what BP was striving for. Not to turn them into experts, but to help cultivate an interest in the subject. Sorry for the LONG post. Here's a link to the whole BP article: http://www.rogerknapp.com/download/Baden%20Merit%20Badges.htm

Destiny's child already did that, and stirred up quite the fuss. The BSA formally notified their management of this. Of course, their method of wearing the uniform, coupled with their popularity and the fact that it was on national cable TV added to the mess. http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/celebs.htm Now, this singer is wearing a true vintage uniform, even with the old rectangle rank patches. I'm not sure when they switched from those (it was before my time). I couldn't make out the name of the council, but it did say "Washington", which is where she's from. Maybe it belonged to her dad.

Also, when you have these exciting activities for the older boys, make sure the younger boys see what they are up to. Even combine the activities when you can. That way, the younger guys have something to look forward to, and it keeps their adrenaline going. Some of the young ones (and their parents) may push for them to do all the same things. But stand your ground, and help differentiate the ages in order to make scouting a lifelong experience.

I've often felt that Barry and I were kindred spirits in how we approach scouting. I'm starting to feel that way about Semper as well. In fact, since he's from Kentucky, maybe we were separated at birth. I approach it similarly to Semper. I believe it's much more about the boys character and has he really earned the rank. I remember posting on this board (and getting hammered because of it) regarding summer camp Merit Badges. If we see a situation where the boys clearly didn't do the work, but were signed off on the badge, we follow up on it when we get home. We approach the boys at the next troop meeting and discuss whether they really fulfilled the requirement. We talk about "trustworthiness" and putting that to the test. I've had some boys grumble, but usually they are willing to do the work necessary to truly satisfy the requirement. (Incidentally, I'm not talking about whether a requirement was done adequately, I'm talking about situations where the requirement was not done at all). Hunt, to your original question, I think you are correct. I have never seen an Eagle BOR turn down a boy because of one of these philisophical issues. I have, however, seen a boy grilled over things like this. For example, I saw a scout who earned all three Citizenships in the same month. I find it really hard to believe that he could do this. The troop is a known MB mill, and he apparently satisfied the requirements to their satisfaction. It did cause me to ask the question, but it wasn't enough to turn him down.

I've got mixed feelings on the Lifesaving vs. EP debate. Back in my day, I believe I tried Lifesaving twice, to no avail. I satisfied the 400 yds and most everything else. But the "rescuing the drowning victim who is doing everything in the world to drown you" was what I always struggled with. I ended up earning EP and made Eagle. Today, they have pretty much eliminated the "fighting the rescuer" part of Lifesaving. As I've seen it taught at Summer Camp, it's just about as easy as EP, except for the 400 yd swim.

2CD stole my thunder. I approached it the same way. If I'm working with a group on a requirement, and they each satisify it, then I'll sign my son along with them. If he does something on his own, I would try to get another adult or appropriate boy leader to do it.

The most fitting game I can think of is the "pass a message" game. You line all the boys up in the patrol. A message is whispered to the first scout. It can be something scout-related such as: "In two weeks, the troop meeting is going to be held at the Johnson's house, instead of the church building. We'll be meeting 30 minutes earlier than normal, so that we'll have more time to build our Klondike sled. Please bring $5 for pizza and a soft drink. Also, don't forget to bring your $10 fee for participating in the Klondike Derby." Have the last scout write down what they heard. Then compare it to the original. Give points for getting the major facts correct (date, time, location, money for pizza, money for klondike). Take away points for incorrect information ($5 for klondike, meeting in 1 week, etc.). The longer the message, the more challenging the game. You can follow it up with an activity to show more effective ways of communicating. For example, you can then give a message to the patrol leader, and have him pass it on to each scout directly (instead of passing it down the line). Do the same thing with scoring, and see how much better they do. A third method is to provide it in writing, and let the patrol leader review it with each scout. Allow the recipients to take notes. Show how the message can then be communicated almost perfectly if they actively listen. -------------------- Check out the Troop Program Features, there is a program for Communications in there that might help. Also, check out your Troop Program Resources book for several games that have communications ideas. --------------------- Finally, I Googled "Communication Games" and got several hits, including the following: http://www.gamesforgroups.com/newpage9.htm http://www.uen.org/Lessonplan/preview?LPid=3995

Avoiding the issue to fight another day is sometimes the wise move. That's what it sounds like you did. Getting advice from your SM is an appropriate next step. In the mean time, we'll give you some advice too. You could have approached the dad, asked him to step to the side, and explain that it's important for the boys to take the initiative to prepare the meals. He's welcome to assist. But, they need to be in charge. Whether you can take that approach depends upon a lot of things, many of which you might not be able to know in this situation. For example, would the dad respect you? Or, why was he doing it? (Perhaps things were running amock and he felt like he had to step in). As a SM, I would have done this. But, since your SM wasn't there, and it sounds like there were no other experienced leaders there, then you might have been stuck. The only other thing I can think of is if you knew one of the other adults well enough to have them step in. That would probably work as well. Best of luck!

We ask every family to volunteer one person to serve in a leadership capacity (ASM or MC) for one year after they join. We've never had anyone turn us down (yet). What we've found is that folks don't want to step down after participating for a year. The committee members enjoy being involved in boards of review and in the decision making regarding troop operations. It actually leads to almost having TOO many members in the committee. How to keep parents involved? If they want to be involved, they will (if you let them). If you operate like a good-ole-boys club, then outsiders will never be welcomed in. We start early, by getting the Web II's out camping with us, with their parents. They feel part of the "club" from the start. Now, some parents either don't have the time or won't make the time. There's little to nothing you can do about them. I've found that their sons are usually very disappointed when they can't get dad to go on a campout with them. It's very discouraging for the one or two that don't have an involved parent. Lessons learned - New parents (and several that have been around a while) don't understand the "boy led" concept. They find it easier to do it themselves rather than let the boys do it. I get quite upset when I walk into the camp kitchen and find a dad taking over the cooking. I tell them there is a big difference in helping and taking over. They need to learn the concept of "don't do anything that the boy can do for himself". I think some parents think I'm the laziest adult out there. That's because I let the boys do what they are supposed to do. Advice - Try to get the parents to believe in the scouting program. Become a scouting evangelist. Make them feel like this IS the most important thing they are doing with their son. Believe me, the soccer coach and the band teacher are certainly telling them the same thing about their program. Don't be shy about it. Convince them that they need scouting in their life. That's enough for now. I can't think of any funny or heartwarming stories. If I do I'll add another post.

Happy New Year from here OZ. Hope you have a great 2005!

We've discussed several times about whether certain things should be counted as service hours or not (day camp, service to church, etc.). With several new members on the board, I'd like to get some additional insight. Every year our troop helps the pack with the Pinewood Derby. They do everything from weighing in cars, starting races and doing the announcing. Some guys only work an hour or so, while some stay all day, setting up and tearing down. Other than the one or two that have family ties to the pack, nobody forces them to come. We do it as a way to keep positive relations between the two units. Would you count these as service hours for 2nd Class, Star or Life?

I can't do TWO jobs in a big troop of 43 Scouts and be a happy camper. Something's got to give. I agree with you. I was doing it for a troop of about 15, and it was killing me. It's got to be considerably worse at your size. The great news is that you have a ton of registered parents that you just need to get in line. MyDistrict Executive agrees with "EagleInKY," and wants to hold a Parents' Meeting at the next Court of Honor. Gee, and I'm not even a professional. But seriously, it did work out pretty well for me. You just have to come off sincere and not whining. I really wanted them to understand that I really wanted to work with the boys, and not be worried with the administrative stuff. I believe if they see that sincerity, many will respond favorably. Admittedly, I had one parent not respond favorably. In fact, a few months later they pulled their boys out. I don't know if it had anything to do with it or not. But, if a parent who doesn't want to help wants to take their kids to another troop that will babysit for them, that's okay with me.

Dan, This page from the BSA site talks about troop responsibilites. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-086/troop.html They state: 2e) Arrange for Webelos dens to visit a troop meeting. This should be planned several weeks in advance. In our District Roundtable, they gave out sample outlines of a troop meeting for a Webelos open house. It follows a plan similar to what I described. Again, I don't discourage Webelos from coming any time they want (I do prefer a call, just so I'm expecting them). I expect we'll have some visits over the next month, as we get closer to crossover.