EagleInKY

At a scouting event recently, a bunch of adults were sitting around the campfire discussing the meaning of life and other deep topics. Among this group was a devout Catholic, a Muslim lady, and a born-again Christian. Also, there was what I'll call a "Catholic dropout". He was raised Catholic, but has since dropped away to the point of having very little religion in his life. After this fellow had shared his feelings about organized religion, there was some healthy debate. Of course, the Catholic fellow felt he should come back to his roots. The Christian fellow felt he needed to find Jesus Christ as his savior. At one point, the Muslim lady jumped on the Christian and Catholic fellows, telling them that they shouldn't be so closed minded, and that there are lots of faiths for him to explore. They should encourage him to seek what he needs, not what fits theirs. I was trying my best to stay out of the debate. (I'm a devout Christian, but I try to stay out of these battles.) I came up with a rebuttal, but I chose to stay quiet. I wanted to make a point that we had honored her religious values all the time we had been together. She was not allowed to touch us, so we made adjustments to our activities. She couldn't eat the same food, so we made adjustments to our menus. She had special schedules that she had to be on, so at times she wasn't their to help out with her group. In my mind, we were being tolerant of her religion. However, our religion tells us that we have one God and one Savior. I cannot, as a faithful follower of Christ, encourage someone to seek his answers somewhere else. In my heart and mind, there is only one answer for him. She needed to be tolerant of our point of view. In my mind, when it became time for her to be tolerant of our beliefs, she could not be. I actually find this to be very similar to what we are seeing in the culture wars today. Christians, when they practice the giving/humanitarian side of Chrisitanity are upheld as finally doing what they are supposed to do. And, if they proselitize (which we are also taught to do), we are critized as being closed minded.

Our pack is doing a "Cub Scouting through the Ages" theme. Each den is assigned a decade. It worked out perfect, covering the 30's through the 2000's.

Learning to depend on others is a tough thing to do. It's frustrating, I know. It's something we adult leaders deal with all of the time. At some point you may have to decide what you will do for them. You may have to let them fall on their face every once in a while. Sometimes, guys will let others do the work for them, as long as they see the work getting done. 1) Make sure they understand their responsibility. 2) If he hasn't done it, have your SM sit down with them (w/ you present) to discuss their responsibility. 3) Delegate to them and let them know you are not going to cover for them. 4) Let them go. If they fail, they'll learn from it.

The kids reflect the values of the adults they are surrounded by. I've coached "non-competitive" YMCA basketball and watched the kids keep count in their heads. But, as long as the coaches didn't make a big deal about it, they were okay. I remember coaching a 4-5 year old team and we came up against this team coached by a guy that looked like Sinbad. He yelled at them like Bobby Knight. He did everything but cuss and throw a chair! His team looked like a mini-Duke team. Every time he yelled, our guys would all stop and stare out him. That would usually leave an open layup for his guys. My point is... kids will be competive. But, how they react to that is largely in the hands of the parents and leaders. When I was CM, I always encouraged my den leaders, who knew the parents much better, to help keep an eye on this and keep things from getting out of hand.

KS - Interesting thought on it providing incentive for the older boys to get to know the new ones. Thanks.

One of my favorite topics. Yes, it's very subjective. It's also one of the great motivators that a SM has. About a year ago I had a problem with a particular scout. It wasn't a one-time deal, it was a progressively worse situation. I started a thread that had lots of good thoughts in it. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=46779 Also, I see it as a bar that raises throughout their scouting career. I expect more from a Star, Life, Eagle candidate than I do at Tenderfoot or 2nd Class. I may "let a boy by" with some immature behavior when he's eleven and new to boy leadership. But I expect him to grow out of it by the time he has matured some in scouting and understand the patrol system. I also agree - in fact I believe I brought it up in the post you spun from - that if a boy absolutely refuses to wear the uniform, especially for the BOR (and it's not for economical or religious reasons), then that boy is not showing scout spirit, and I wouldn't even let him get to the BOR until he began to show a little.

I do think it runs in some families more than others. I think it has a lot to do with the values that they hold. I know it is somewhat over-simplified, but I think it depends greatly upon the first person's experience with scouting. Our cousins tried scouting about the same time as us. Similar values, same town, even lived on the same street. It didn't work for them. My wife's sister's family tried it. Again, similar interests and values, but no luck. My family, well, we're scout junkies. My mom & dad, brother, son and I have been in and out of scouting for nearly 40 years. I haven't tried adding it up, but I know we've got over 100 years of service between us. We definitely drank the koolaid. Or, should I say, bug juice.

A few years back, instead of giving yet another cheesy ribbon or patch, we thought it would be cool to do something like this. So, we gave them certificates with all sorts of funny categories (best use of a block of wood, fastest looking, best paint job, etc.). Every car gets one. The boys think their cool, and it's a form of a participation award. We do a "real" best design award for each den. They get a nice plaque. We try not to give it the overall winner. But if it's not close...

Our pack does a number of speciality races. After the dens and pack championship we have the following races: Open Legal (follows all the same rules). It used to be a leaders race, but it's been opened up to everyone. Lots of kids race their cars again in this one. Open Unlimited - No rules except that there can be no artificial propellent and it cannot damage the track or other cards. The fastest cars I've seen were "the brick" and "the hammerhead". You can guess how they got their names. Girl Scout Race - I know, sacrilege to some. We've got a lot of sisters in Girl Scouts. They bring their cars and race as well.

Pheonix, I can feel the pain in your writing. Unfortunately, it confused me a little. I can tell you are quite passionate about the subject. Can you clear up some facts so we might be able to give you some advice? - What is your role in the troop? - What role does "John" play? Is he with council? What is his position? - Is it just that the other troops in your district are badmouthing you? I've seen this happen, and know it can be painful. - What has your DE done? Have you spoken to him/her? - Do you have a Unit Commissioner? Have you spoken to him/her? That's a good start. Hopefully with some more facts we can give you some advice.

We were just having this discussion the other day. When do you do your OA elections? Some feel we should do it in the January - March timeframe, before the new Webelos crossover. The thinking is that the newbies really don't know the candidates that well, so it's hard for them to cast a fair ballot. The other thinking is to wait until June, after they've camped out with us at least two times. The only problem is that the lodge likes to do it before June.

Semper - Some districts just don't run that way. Our district has no list. The DAC is with a huge troop that is essentially an Eagle Mill. They don't need anyone else's counselors, so he doesn't see the value in doing it. It makes it challenging for the smaller, less experienced troops. And it makes it darn hard to operate under the traditional system espoused by so many on this forum. Whenever we get a counselor that is not registered (often a spouse, relative or friend of someone in the troop), we do all the paperwork. They are never notified of acceptance. In fact, I'm pretty sure that nothing happens other than the background check. I'm sure we would be notified if it did. The only question is whether we (the troop) or they (the counselor) would be notified if the background check came back bad. If they just notified the counselor (which I doubt), we'd be totally in the dark.

WHAT? Weighing in 10 days before? Now, we hae had weigh-ins the week before, but it was just a preliminary weighing. The official weigh-in has to be immediately before the race. That just asks for the over-agressive dad to cheat. And, yes, unfortunately it happens. Many years ago, we caught a dad showing his boy how to slip extra weight into his car between between the pit area and the track. I guess Semper's "adults only" method would prevent that from happening. But, I take just the opposite stance (sorry friend). I believe the boys should be the ONLY people to touch the car. First, it makes them actually involved. Second, they are responsible if they drop it. Third, their parents can't claim that someone was trying to fix the race. (and yes, I've had a dad accuse that as well).

I try to not send out more than one e-mail per week. If I have several reminders to give, I try to group them all into one e-mail. I find there are three types of e-mail users. 1) Those, like me, who virtually live on e-mail and will likely read it within a few hours. 2) Those who check it every day or so. They will typically get it and respond if necessary. 3) Those who check e-mail when they remember. Sometimes weeks go by. These people often forget their e-mail address or passwords. They may change their e-mail address and do not tell anyone. You didn't know it wasn't getting to them, because they never responded to them in the past anyway.

Acco - Interesting interpretation. I bet, however, if you read any boy scout summer camp pamphlet, it will state that smoking is allowed away from the boys. That seems to conflict with your interpretation. We have one smoker. He doesn't come on many activities, but when he does, he smokes away from the boys. He comes to some troop meetings, and always smokes outside in the back of the building.

No problem Old Grey one. Nice use of the story. I remember reading some of those Father Brown stories long ago. I may have to take some time to read some of them again.

Hey, six rounds is better than two races and you are out in double elimination. After a car is weighed in, the ONLY person that can touch a car is the boy. Believe me, you don't want to be that embarrased leader that accidentally dropped Johnny's car and broke his wheel.

From "The Innocence of Father Brown." by G.K. Chesterton http://www.hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/The.Innocence.of.Father.Brown.pdf Scroll down about 40 pages or so to find this story.

J4TA - Since you've already received some fantastic advice from three of my favorite posters, I have nothing of real value to add. Just to encouage you, it can happen. But it takes time. My situation is a little different, we were starting with a new troop. But with nine green boys, straight from Cub Scouts, they knew nothing about a boy-run program. And the parents knew nothing but an adult-planned program. The first year, we essentially had an adult-ran program. The only thing was, every time I or my ASM did something that should have been a boy's job, we would say "I'm doing it now, but this will eventually be your job". Gradually, over two years, we have a program that is pretty-close to boy-run. I still have to do some manipulation from the back to get the boys to do what they are supposed to do. But that is becoming less and less. Adults are the challenge. Boys will sometime break your heart or wear out your nerves, but parents are the ones that create most of the stress. Change often doesn't come easy to them. Be patient, and listen to the advice you are getting here. Well there I go. I wrote quite a bit for having nothing to add.

OGE - I can understand how it sounds that way. I'm not in the 'everyone gets a trophy" camp. (I do think everyone should get a certificate, ribbon or patch, though.) To me, it's more about fun and fairness. A boy can have a really good car, but go up against the fastest car in the group in the first race. He's immediately put into the "loser" bracket. Odds are way against him coming out of that to win. Second, most all tracks have a slight variance in lane speeds. The rotation method allows you to race once in each lane. This greatly reduces the impact of lane speed variances on the outcome. Third, it reduces the impact of graphite and lubricants on the outcome. To win, a car will have to race at least six times. By then, you are much more dependent upon the quality of the car, than having the right proportion of lubricant. (We don't allow them to relubricate during the heats). Finally, and this is very important, this is a VERY COMPETITIVE method of racing. It's much more difficult to win using this method. The best car will almost always win. Imagine if in a NASCAR race, the back half of the cars were eliminated after each lap. That would be pretty boring, in my opinion. Fun, Fair, Competitive, Suspensful, and no "losers" bracket. What else can you ask for?

Join4TA - We had the "internal/external" debate as well. I think some would prefer to be trained by someone from the outside. Some may believe that I'm trying to indoctrinate them w/"my view" of scouting. That's one reason that I try to use BSA materials almost to exclusivity in the training. A possible approach may be to break committee training up over several months, carving 30-45 minutes out of each committee meeting. It's not as effective, but it's a start.

As far as I know, as long as you are a unit of scouting, and using the logo appropriately, you can do whatever you want. We've used the Cub Scout and Boy Scout symbols in both our pack and troop logos.

I've received a couple of requests for the spreadsheet. I found the webpage where I originally downloaded it. It can be found here: http://home1.gte.net/res06xo8/pine.htm I have taken the 3 lane spreadsheet and added names to it, so it reads the scouts names instead of "A", "B", "C", etc. If you want that version, PM me with your e-mail address. I'll describe our process for you. I no longer use the spreadsheet, I developed a web-based application to manage this for me. But the process is the same. ************************ Our procedure (for a 3 lane track) We race in groups (Tigers, Wolves, etc.). We'll usually have anywhere from 8 to 18 in an age group. In the spreadsheet, take the worksheet for the number of boys you have racing and create a copy. This is your working version for this set of races. Assign the boys to the car positions and start the races. Each boy will race in each lane ONE time. If you have more than seven boys, they will never race the same car twice. However, with more than 7, there will be some cars that do not get paired together at all during this first set of heats. For each race, a boy receives points. We give 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd and 1 point for 3rd. We now hae an electronic eye finish line, so ties are extremely rare. Before that, if we had a tie, we just gave both of them the points. So, if two cars tied for first, we gave them both 3 points, and 1 point for the 3rd place car. If two cars tied for 2nd, we gave 3 points for 1st and 2 points to each of them. At the end of this set of races (which will be equal to the number of boys) we total up the points. We pick a breakpoint, roughly half-way through the group. If there are 14, we'll try to pick at least 7. This is a judgement call, but the judges have final say. We then do it all over again. We pick the appropriate worksheet (7 racers, for example) and make a working copy. We race those boys through. Typically, there are 7 or less during this heat, so every boy ends up facing each other at least once. After this set of races we total up the points again. If there are any ties, we go to a run-off system to break the ties. This works extremely well, and there is a lot of anticipation. Often the winner is unknown until the announce. If all of this sounds too confusing, I'll gladly come as a consultant to operate it for you. Prices are reasonable in sunny destinations near good golf courses.

CA - We've had to ban cards from time-to-time for the same reason. Guys wouldn't take care of their duties because of it. It's usually been "no more cards until after dinner is cleaned up" than a long-term ban.

Welcome Deb. Enjoy the ride!