EagleInKY

I did it last week as well, and have forwarded it to the other leaders in my troop. My understanding is that you only have to have the card. The council doesn't track this.

Last night, my scoutmaster's minute was based on something that happened this weekend. I didn't tell it to brag, but to point out what happens when you act like a scout in your everyday life. We're in the process of selling our house. Sunday we received an offer on it. While showing the house, we've been telling everyone that a partitular door was going to be replaced. Our dog did a number on it a couple of years ago and it's in pretty bad shape. Now, any good realtor knows that you spell out anything like that in the offer. They did not. My realtor said to me that he knew I wouldn't do this, but he felt obligated to tell me, that we were under no obligation to replace the door. I appreciated the fact that he told me what my rights were. And, that he "offered" me a way of saving nearly $2000. But what I appreciated more was the fact that he said he knew I wouldn't do that. You see, if you live by the scout oath and law, you will develop a reputation. One you can be proud of.

Falcon pretty much summed it up. Either the boy does the job or he doesn't. The fact that his parent is the den leader or brother may be in the den could have an impact. You have to be the judge as to whether you think it would work. I've got some parents that I would never put their sons in this role because I know that the parent would do all the work. I have other parents who would probably be harder on them. From a convenience factor, I can't think of anything better. Often older brothers are drug to den meetings or left home alone anyway. This allows him to put that time to good use.

Do you ever say no to a scout? I certainly try not to. I've had a scout ask to work on something, let's say Find Your Way w/out a compass. I may have told him that we were going to work on that at a campout in a few weeks, and if he could wait until then. Usually he could. We also try to include multiple opportunities to fulfill requirements. We don't go on just one hike a year, but 2 or 3. We don't work on map & compass during August, but we usually refresh the skills before Klondike as well. As for swimming, we take two troop meetings and go to the Y (once in the winter, and once in the spring shortly after crossover), we have a pool party with the pack, there is summer camp, and we often get to swim on at least one campout during the year. So there are usually many options for those requirements. But, if a boy wanted to have a lifeguard at the Y signoff for his rescure requirement, I'd be open to that. Great thread, lots of good comments.

Like KC said, I can understand the potential concern from the female perspective. I can't think of any racial overtones, but freely admit that I'm a middle-aged, middle class, white man from middle America. Is there something in particular that has been brought up as a concern?

Barry - One other note, follow up to your earlier post regarding the FC/FY program. I've been criticized by a few parents for over-emphasizing the program. I really don't think I do. Of course, the parents who critized me were of the few boys who didn't complete it in a year. I've always said that it was a goal, not a requirement. Some guys will do it, some will not. It doesn't impact things that much in the big picture. What we do is include the primary scout skills in the annual calendar. For example, we're doing Physical Fitness/Sports in May. It's a great time for new scouts to do their Tenderfoot requirement. Older scouts may want to start their 90 day program for Personal Fitness, or play some sports for Sports MB. In August, we're doing Map & Compass / GPS. We're doing it to prep for a backpacking trek in the Gorge in September. But, it's also a great time for scouts to complete the 2nd Class requirements for this topic. So, if a scout is active (participates in most meetings and activities), does his share of the work, and completes the requirements, he should have no problem completing FC in the FY. However, if he misses a lot, doesn't do the individual work, or doesn't follow-through, he'll be 2 years getting to it. So, is this a "First Class Mill"...? I don't think so. But we do provide a program that a boy can easily obtain the goal if he sets his mind to it.

Every scout I worked with that expected a reward for substandard work had a parent behind him pushing him to that expectation. Great comment Barry. I've found the same. When a scout recently was not elected to PL, I had a parent complain that it wasn't fair that his son (the oldest in the patrol), wasn't elected. Simply put, the boys don't see him as a leader. A week later, the parents complained that he wasn't selected for a troop position. But, truth be told, the boy was approached by the SPL, who asked if he wanted any troop position. The boy said "no". The parents wanted me to go back and rearrange things, overriding the SPL. I refused, and now they are not too happy with me. It's a great example of a parent wanting priveleges for their son, when - frankly - he doesn't deserve them.

My son calls me dad during conversation. But, if he's talking to the troop (he's now the SPL), he will usually refer to me as Mr. or sometimes Mr. Scoutmaster. We had a thread a while back on this subject, relating to what the boys call you. I find that the young scouts coming in call me Mr. The boys that have served in a senior leadership position usually call me John. I think it comes naturally to them because we get to work much closer together in almost a peer-to-peer type of relationship.

Welcome to the forum, Dug. We've all butted heads with a guy who doesnt post here anymoreat one time or another. From reading your posts, it sounds like you have a strong Patrol-oriented program. We're a young troop, still developing the patrol method. So I'll look forward to reading your posts. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Two years ago, I was in your position. We started a troop with seven 5th graders and two 7th graders. That first year, we were not extremely boy-led. It took a while to get there (in fact, it's still work in progress). During the first year, the ASM and I had to do a lot of the SPL's work for them. But we made it very clear that - when we were acting like an SPL - we were only doing it temporarily. One year later, they elected their first SPL. It took a little while, but you'll look back and be amazed at their growth.

It's not any problem at all to have materials purchased by the organization reaping the benefit. After all, they are still getting free labor. The scout should put together an estiamted cost up front, so they are aware of what is expected of them.

My bad Manassas. I misunderstood your statement. Then I agree with you. In fact, it's actually a great thing to do for young scouts to spend time with Webelos. I thought they were doing it instead of being with their troop. Sitrep, while it's true that one month is not a fair enough sampling, this troop certainly "smells" of a Eagle Mill. However, as I've told before, this could describe a few of our troop meetings each year. One thing that may contradict the Eagle Mill "verdict" is that he said that adults mainly stood around and gabbed. In a boy-run troop, that's often the only thing for us to do!

Now watch the WV comment. I have some relatives (in-laws, actually) in those parts.

Manassas - Not sure what sitrep is smokin', but the paragraph describing what your son experienced does sound like an Eagle Mill. Assuming that was a regular occurence. If it was that way a few times a year, I would not necessarily call it an Eagle Mill. Now, I don't have an issue with the troop leader wanting the first year scouts to be with the troop for summer camp. It has nothing to do with advancement. It's that now they are a part of a patrol and a troop. That's where they need to be. Not for advancement, but to be a part of their patrol and troop and support them. They'll have plenty of time to spend with their brothers, when they join the troop (or visit as Webelos) in the next couple of years.

Thanks for the info, that's the type of stuff I was looking for. ACE is one of the outfitters we're interested in. Your appraisal of the "challenge" of the different sections is consistent with what I've found. We may put our first years on the "boring" Upper New. From what we've seen, we have some very week swimmers in the group. I don't feel comfortable with them on white water. I think our older guys (2nd & 3rd year) will do either the lower new or lower gauley. I also expect we'll do at least one of these side activities. Did you guys do one day or two day runs?

New or Gauley. Most of the outfitters we've talked to have campgrounds. We kind of like the idea of the cabin tents (aka summer camp tents), to reduce some of the gear we have to take, but that's not a big deal. We're getting close to making reservations and thought I'd ask here to see if anyone has any personal experiences to relate.

Our troop is planning a Whitewater rafting trip to West Virginia. Any recommendations regarding outfitters or programs? Any other advice from those who have been? We've got some pretty good ideas put together and have talked to some outfitters. I'm seeking any other advice from this distinguished group.

We budget $3 per person per meal. Less expensive meals (dry lunch or quick breakfast on Sunday) offset the more expensive meals (Saturday dinner). Snacks and cracker barrels are covered in this cost.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. They're just tied together for the ceremony. They keep their ropes. They learn how to tie it in a sinnet and hang it from a belt loop. That way, they always have a rope with them when we decide to work on knots. And, it can serve as a handy tool for emergency purposes.

Around here, when schools have prevented sending home flyers, hosting round-ups and in-school promotions, they have essentially killed the cub scout program there. (Which is exactly what Moilen and peole of his ilk want to do). Our school handles it pretty well. During some of their "free time", boys in certain grades (I think usually 1st-3rd) are invited to come hear about Cub Scouting. It's strictly optional. They talk to them about 10 minutes and send a flier home. That's it. No coersion, no forced assemblies.

Acco - That was River Phoenix, not Leonardo D., a few years before his death by a drug overdoze.

Torribug - AMEN! I wish more parents thought like you. I hear all the time, "I'd rather write a check than hassle with selling (______________)". They miss the point completely. And, unfortunately, their son's are going to have to learn someday about individual accountability.

We're new at using a Troop Guide. We're just getting going with our new TG and our NSP, so I'm curious as to what input you get. My opinion is that he should NOT be part of the NSP. The SM Handbook says that he should either be part of the senior leadership (w/the SPL & ASPL) or part of an older scout patrol. I do not believe he should be an actual member of the new scout patrol. It's their patrol, he is there to help them. We're leaning toward pulling him out of his patrol and putting him with the senior leaders. The reasons are twofold. One, he will spend most of his time with the NSP. He'll be at their patrol meetings, he'll work with them in troop meetings and on campouts. He will have little to no time to dedicate to his current patrol. So, instead of him being a hindrance to them, make him part of the troop leadership. Second, since this older boy is going to spend an enormous amount of time with the NSP, grouping him with the senior leaders gives him a chance to "decompress" with boys his own age & maturity level. For this reason, I think he will usually camp with the senior leaders, not the patrol. I'm modeling this much after the Woodbadge approach. I see him being an integral part of the group during the early months. But, he is still not a full member of the group. More like a big brother, you might say. Over time (6-9 months), I see him starting to back away, and let the NSP work on their own. By the time next February rolls around, they'll be fully integrated into the troop. Any thoughts to this approach. It's early, so we're still tweaking.

FS got there before me. If no one-on-one contact was involved, all I see is a SM checking in on the boys and making sure they were okay. You weren't officially on the outing with them, just making sure they were okay. Would it have been better to have someone with you, sure... but I don't think it was a violation. But I'm not a lawyer.

Welcome back! Glad you decided to stay. And, frankly, it's a reminder of why we all need to keep a scout spirit in how we address each other on these forums.