EagleInKY

We called around some local flag dealers and found one that sold "blanks". I'm guessing they are about 18x30 inches. The boys used markers to color on them, which turned out to be a mistake. Plain ball-point pens or waterproof paint worked better.

Hey Micah. Welcome to the campfire. Sounds like you bring a lot of good experience to the table.

Around the end of the year, we lost three scouts. Two were lazy, whiners who had a mom with a really bad attitude. They decided to join the troop at their church. I couldn't have been happier for them/us/everyone involved. We then had to ask a boy to leave the troop. He had an extremely bad attitude, talked back to adults and scout leaders, and had one case of physical violence with another scout. It was tough to do, but it was to the "it's him or me" point. It's amazing how much smoother the troop is running now. All of the boys have a better attitude. Even the ones who I thought were good friends with these guys are a lot happier. I think it's a combination of not having the lazy, bad attitude around; and the fact that we adults have more time to spend on delivering a quality program to all of the scouts.

Manassas - You clarified the point very well regarding "allowing" or "providing" vs. "requiring" or "forcing". We have a program that allows a reasonably active and motivated scout to obtain the rank in approximately 12 months. Scouts who are not active or are not motivated will likely not complete it in that timeframe. Interesting how you tied that to advancement mill troops. I had a scout who was reasonably active but not motiviated at all to advance. He could really care less, he was just there to hang out, since his parents pretty much forced him to be a scout. After a number of issues, we ended up having to ask this scout to leave (totally different topic). I expected him to drop out completely, but instead they joined an advancement mill down the road. In a little over a month, this kid who didn't have the desire to complete first class in two years suddenly made it. But I know it's because the troop made it easy on him. I'm happy he's still in scouts and wish him success, but I really don't like the approach some of these troops are taking to implement the advancement program. It's obvious that they are putting it above all other methods.

We "strongly discourage" certain MBs at Summer Camp. Things like the Citizenships & Communications for example. Why? Because they can't be covered in their totality in a camp setting. Plus, we'd rather see them do things they can't easily do at home or in school (canoeing, fishing, sailing, etc.) Now, does "strongly discourage" equal "prohibit"? No, but it's close. If a parent throws a huge fuss and wants to go against the recommendations of the trained and experienced adult leadership of the troop, then they can. We haven't had anyone do that yet.

Now that's going overboard. As SM, I have not approved some service projects. We've chatted about some of those before. I think this guy has a control issue.

Welcome Mile-higher. Hope you enjoy the view from up there.

Thanks to all. And Bob, I'm not surprised you recommend being direct. But I do like your approach to this situation. I wish all of your answers were handled so gently.

Ed - I too am a skeptic when it comes to percentages. Maybe it's because I minored in the subject, and know you can manipulate them pretty easily. This one reminds me of something I heard a while back. A dean of a college who was responsible for extracurriculur activities was aspousing the importance of them, stating that students who participated in extracturriculur acttivities had a higher GPA. What he failed to mention was that students had to maintain a 2.5 GPA to participate. Therefore, the population set he was pulling from naturally had a higher GPA. I believe the FC/FY statistic suffers from a similar flaw. With that said, I still believe in the concept. We structure our annual program such that an active scout can easily obtain First Class during his first year. However, it doesn't guarantee it. It still requires the boy to do his part. Our program is structured like this... The first couple of months are centered around tenderfoot basics (with a few 2nd class & 1st class items thrown in). We take it pretty easy on them, most of it is spoonfed to them. After all, they have tender feet. If they participate, do their part, and give it a good effort, they'll likely advance quite easily. Most of the Scouts earn Tenderfoot in the first 2-3 months. Second Class takes a little more time. We expect them to truly demonstrate the skills necessary. Some initiative is required to complete these requirements. Most of the guys take 2-6 months to earn it. But some take the entire first year. By the time they've reached 2nd class, we've covered most everything all the way through first class (most of it twice). But it takes more individual effort to complete these requirements. For example, we don't bring in a bunch of timbers and have them make a camp gadget one night. We tell them that they need to do it on an upcoming campout and present it to a leader for signoff. We don't bring a community leader in for them each to interview, we expect them to set up an appointment, interview the person and report back what they talked about. Therefore, I see scouts sit at 2nd class for quite a while sometimes. It's because, for many the first time, they are solely responsible for completing the work. And, for some, it takes a while to get there. Therefore, most kids I've worked with, take 12-18 months to earn First Class, and I've seen them take up to two years. Our First Year scouts who came in two years ago were pretty motivated. 2/3 of them completed First Class in 11-14 months. This past year's group, however, are very laid back. They're smart kids, just not real motivated. We're nearly 15 months in, and we're only about to get the first FC out of them. The other eight boys are all still very involved, and I expect most of them will wrap it up in the Summer, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them take longer. It's just a different set of personalities and values. But isn't that what life is about? We all bring different capabilities to the table. It teaches them some real life lessons about reaping what you sow. I'll continue presenting a program that emphasizes First Class, but I won't measure our success on the percentage that actually complete it in under 365 days.

LOL!!! Well done, Semper!

Welcome shorty. We don't care how tall you are, just bring another log to the fire.

Richmond.. Hey neighbor! We've similar challenges because we're a young troop too. My approach has been to slowly step up the adventure challenge each year. For example, with some mature 12 & 13 year olds, you can do some decent tours that have a taste of "wild caving". Sure, it's not the real thing, but it satisfies the appetite for now. Be honest with your guys, tell them you are building up to something bigger. Some will be patient, some will not. I had two scouts leave because we weren't doing enough "high adventure". They want us to go to Philmont now (even though they're only 12). This year, we're doing some more exciting things. They whined to one of our boys about us "doing fun stuff now that their gone". The boy responded that they should have been patient and the fun would come.

Way back when I was on camp staff we had an escaped convict in the area. We had an outpost campout going on with a bunch of young scouts. We decided to rotate a night watch. On a campout a year or so ago, we had tornado warnings in the area. My weather radio started lighting up like crazy. I ended up sitting up until the weather cleared.

I use e-mail for general announcements and reminders. If a person doesn't check their e-mail at least once a week, shame on them. If I positively need an answer immediately, I use phone. Sometimes both if necessary. And, I tend to use cell phones more than home or work numbers. All my primary leaders cell phone numbers are programmed in my cell phone. If I need an answer, but not immediately, I send an e-mail and ask for a response by a certain time. If I don't hear from them, I'll follow with a phone call after that.

Thanks OGE. I know it's an under-appreciated role you have played.

In another post, Barry asks "What about the parents? Do they care, do they want to care, and do they want to be involved?" I've got a parent that's a RGG (Really Good Guy). Everybody likes him, he's quite a character and lots of fun to be around. He's a committee member for the troop and attends about 1/2 of the campouts. He understands boy leadership and doesn't try to get in the way. He lets me and the ASMs do our jobs. When asked, he'll help out in just about any way. He's got some particularly strong skills in some areas, and we try to pull him in to help on those when he can. In addition, he's quite the big kid. When the guys are hanging around the campfire, he can be quite entertaining. Whatever the situation, he makes them forget about being tired, hungry, hot, cold or soaking wet. Sounds too good to be true, huh? Well, the downside is his language and his tendancy to say inappropriate things. He tries to watch his language, but several expletives will slip out during a typical campout. He'll also joke about things like wishing he had a beer or a woman.... you get the idea. On our last campout, his son let out an expletive. I asked him to not talk that way. He said "why not, my dad does". His dad just laughed and said he had a point and asked why I made such a big deal about it. After all, "they hear it everywhere else". I told him that was fine, but they didn't need to hear it in Boy Scouts. The others leaders feel the same as me. They like him being around, but want him to control himself better. So, what would you do? Have you handled situations like this?

Glad to hear from you... another "lurker" turned "poster". We look forward to learning more about you.

Welcome to the campfire. Put a log on it while you still can. You may not want to once you are in Arizona.

I agree these are fun ways of getting everyone involved and forging stronger ties with families. Our challenge is always with timing. It's never a good time for everyone, so someone always gets their feelings hurt. Therefore, I think the best two ways of doing this are (1) as part of a park promotion (i.e. scout day, discounted tickets, etc.) so you have to go with their date, or (2) as a patrol event, I've encouraged our patrol leaders to try and get themselves together and do something like this. It hasn't happened yet, but I keep my fingers crossed.

Congrats ehcalum! I used to be an Antelope, and a good ole' Antelope, too!

A lot of it will depend upon the eagerness of the SPL to do his job. If the troop has never been boy-run, he may look at the SPL job as a piece of cake, a job that has power and no real responsibility. But, in reality, the SPL is a very challenging position. You need a boy with sound leadership skills and a desire to take the challenge. Our first SPL was never motivated to lead. He just liked being the guy in charge. Our second (and current) SPL is much more interested in planning and carrying out the program. He's setting a great standard for our SPLs in the future. I actually hope that our former SPL may serve again, but with a better understanding of what is expected the next time around. Your guidance will be necessary. Give him tools, advice and - most importantly - confidence to lead. Be there when he needs you, stand in the background when he doesn't. Welcome to the forum.

flying pig (love the name). I guess you probably once said "I'll be Cubmaster when Pigs fly"... Anyway, your situation sounds very familiar. Hope we can help along the way.

"Scoutmasters have too much on their plate to be chasing after forms. Surely there is a tenacious adult that can shake these parents down." Great advice here. This is something I'm working on as well. One ASM handles summer camp, another our high adventure trip. A third is goign to start handling all regular campouts. We're going to have a parent's meeting at an upcoming COH and tell them that forms must be accurate and turned in, or their son will not be allowed to go on the campout. I see no other way. We had a campout this past weekend and several did not have them. It gets frustrating and the parents just don't seem to care. I think they really think of it as just bueracracy and don't see the point.

Welcome! Wow, I can't believe all the new members all of a sudden. Great to see the interest in scouting going into the Summer.

WFA - cool. We've had a few discussions about that in the past. I hope to learn more from you.