EagleInKY

kittle - Maybe it's late and I'm having a brain-spasm, but what does completing a pullup have to do with making First Class?

Welcome to the forum. You have a fun and challenging year ahead. The transition in Boy Scouting is a place where we lose many boys. It takes parents who are willing to encourage their boys, but keep enough distance to let them stumble, fall and pick themselves back up. Note - if you haven't yet, read the "A Nation of Wimps" article before going on your first campout with a troop.

There's the weather report: "Today, there will be weather".

I already ranted last week about our Summer Camp canceling activities because they didn't want the kids out in the rain. Yes, really, the OA - our National Camping Honor Society - canceled their callout because it was raining TWO HOURS BEFORE THE CALLOUT. By the time of the ceremony, the storm had passed. I also see it in the parents of our younger boys coming in. It seems to get worse each year. This year we had a boy taken home from Summer Camp because he was "dehydrated". Frankly, the boy was fine, but he was homesick. Dad was leaving camp and the boy couldn't bear for him to go. The troubling part is that even though he showed no outward signs of dehydration, his doctor diagnosed him as being "severely dehydrated", which only vindicates his parent's overprotective actions. Another trend I've noticed is that some of the more "adventurous" boys are not making it through Cub Scouts because it's all boring and about crafts. They don't see the adventure ahead in Boy Scouts.

It's up to your PLC to decide, as stated, they can pick any type of official neckwear, or choose none at all. This might be a good lesson in leadership and compromise for your scouts. For example, your PLC could decide that any "legal" scout neckwear is okay for troop meetings, but only "official" troop neckwear is okay for formal occasions, such as a Court of Honor. Good luck.... and I, too, am ready to throw in the towel with the whole "Class A, Class B" terminology.

Camp Roy C Manchester on Kentucky Lake in Western Kentucky does patrol cooking. I haven't been there, but I've been told they have an excellent sailing program for your older scouts.

Related to the idea of the "softening of scouting", and to some of the topics regarding the book "The Dangerous Book For Boys". I noticed last week at camp a real fear to doing anything with the boys in moderately bad weather, but that the adults didn't seem to care. The big camp-wide game is held on Tuesday nights. It involves teams running from one section of camp to the other and performing tests of different scout skills. It's one of the highlights of the week for the boys. It's supposed to start at 7:30. The rule was that if it was raining at 7:30, it would be canceled, because they didn't want scouts running around camp on wet ground. Of course, it rained from 7:25-7:35. It was a fairly light rain, but the competition was canceled. Second, the vespers service was canceled because it was raining and they didn't want scouts walking in the storm to the dining hall (where it's held in inclement weather). Finally, the OA Callout was canceled for the same reason. I heard the staff member on the radio say they didn't want boys "walking in the rain" to the ceremony. I couldn't believe that an organization which is based on cheerful service and sacrifice and dedicated to improving our outdoor/camping program would be concerned about scouts getting a little wet. It blew my mind. On the other end of the spectrum, the adults played their annual softball game in a big field during a heavy rain and thunderstorm. Lightening was flashing across the sky, but it wouldn't stop that game for anything. The same goes for the SM's golf tournament (homeaid equipment), horseshoe tournament and other activities. Are you seeing the same thing in your summer camps?

I agree with your synopsis. Other than the MB "classes", it's driven by national policy. I also agree that it is reasonable to expect outdated activities to be eliminated (signaling). What I wish would happen would be a replacement with something similarly challenging. For example, signaling could be replaced with a requirement to participate in a lost scout exercise as both a "victim" and a "rescuer". I'm going to spin off a topic related to our experience at camp this year. Several activities were canceled due to weather. In the "old days", we would have sucked it up and trod through it.

Okay, rumor police beware. How does this play with the rumor about moving away from the current uniform shirt??? Some friends of mine swear that we're going to switch to something else, either a casual polo shirt or the lightweight button-up activity shirt that is on the front of this year's catalog.

I don't measure hits, but I do try to re-enforce the use of the web site. The primary method I use is to not placate their need for information by printing out things for them. If you want the calendar, it's on the website. If you need a medical form, the link's on the website. If you want to see your son's advancement status.... you get the picture. it's become a joke in our troop, when someone asks where it is, everyone says in unison "it's on the website". Even with that, some don't get it and don't use it. Even though everyone has access.

Our PLC meets casually several times a month (before/after meetings, on a campout, etc.). I think they're even starting to do more online collaboration of ideas (e-mails, etc.). Our formal meeting is held once a month. It's scheduled for 30 minutes prior to our regular meeting time. It usually goes a little longer, so it bumps into the regular meeting time. However, on that month we don't do a regular troop meeting, but more informal patrol-based meetings. The patrol leaders, fresh with information from the PLC, take time to review what is going on and make plans for the coming month. Also, while the patrols are doing this, the committee meets. This gives me and the other adult leaders the chance to go in and report what is going on to the committee. This setup has worked fairly well. The only problem is that we really need a little more time. We've talked about stretching it out ot an hour, and starting the other meeting 30 minutes later. That may cause a bunch of confusion, but it may be worth trying.

I'm pretty much in concurrence with Acco. I also believe that "Boy Led" is not as much a state of "being" as it is an ongoing objective. We go through periods of time where adults have to step in and lead certain aspects of the plan. It may be because we're asked to or it may be because we need to. But the goal should always be to get away from adult-run elements (except those such as BOR that are mandated) and move on to letting the boys run it.

We wear the complete uniform at any event where it is appropriate. We also wear true class bs, (meaning scout shorts, socks and a scout t-shirt). It's amazing how many think class b means "wear anything you want". How'd we get hear? Well, as stated, it starts from the top. I (SM) and the ASMs do a pretty good modeling the behavior. I've noticed that as the ASMs slip, so do the boys. It also required a fair amount of heavy-handed adult-leadership in the early days when our troop was formed (4-5 years ago). Now, however, it's very much driven by the PLC. Here are two examples from summer camp this week. On Sunday, the waterfront was behind on swim checks. Our guide told us that they'd do it after dinner. He told the boys (in front of them all) that they should wear their swimming trunks to dinner with their class A shirts, and then just go straight to the waterfront for the test. The PLC met and decided that the boys should wear their uniform shorts over their swim trunks. Now, a few of them stuck out of the bottom, making an unusual fashion statement, but overall they looked good. Second, they did the flag ceremony for Tuesday morning. At breakfast, the camp requires class B uniforms (remember my earlier definition). Of course, our color guard wore class As (head to toe), but the PLC also decided that the whole troop should go in full uniform to support the boys doing the flag ceremony. I wasn't even in camp that day, so I had nothing to do with it. You should have heard the accolades they received from other leaders. They were very proud. So, yes, you can have a well-uniformed troop and not be completely driven by adults. But it does take some strong coaching and example setting if you are going to do it.

Welcome. Sounds like we're about the same age. Cub in 72, Eagle in 81. Glad to have some more "experienced" folks with us here.

I've only canceled one outing, and that was this spring. It was a backpacking trip, and I didn't feel that I had the adult coverage needed for the trip. Several backed out in the weeks leading up to it and it forced my hand. Two months later, we were almost in the same boat again. This was a bike trek. Very few boys were going and adult coverage was minimal. We ended up changing it to a day trip instead of a campout, and were able to pull it off. I was glad that we were able to do it. I agree in principle to the idea that "Nothing good comes from canceling an outing." However, sometimes it reminds the other adults in the troop that they need to dedicate a little bit of their time as well in order to make the troop program a success.

I had the same thing happen back in February. I went in and through myself on the mercy of our tour permit czar. She expedited it for me and I had it in a few days.

Don't dumb down the program, it's an insult to scouts and scouters both in your troop and across the country. Don't dumb down the requirements, it's an insult to those who truly need alternative requirements to succeed in life. I'd first talk to the boy. Find out what gets his juices going. Get him excited about camping. Then I'd talk to dad, as a friend. Tell him how Junior wants to camp and how he's blowing it for him. He needs to either get his schedule straight so he can put family first, or get his wife in line. You probably can't be so blunt, and I apologize if it sounded sexist (I'd use the same words if the roles were reversed). The truth is, they are ruining this kid. BTW, I've seen this kid before. We've had him in our troop. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of success stories to share with you. I do know, however, that the ones I ignored, were gone before I realized it. By showing concern and attention, maybe you can salvage him before he loses interest.

We categorize money into two buckets - dues and fees. Dues are "due", and are due no matter whether they attend or not. Ours are monthly, but you can pay in any size chunk you want. Fees are activity based, and you only pay if you attend. Activities are supposed to be "net zero" activities, meaning the fees cover the entire cost of the activity. Books should be open, but I'm with the group saying it shouldn't mean it's open season for every disgruntled parent to challenge every dime. A simple cash flow report with balances in various buckets should suffice. Our balances report typically has a balance for the general fund, scout individual accounts (as a total), and special funds for high adventure activities. Individual accounts are kept for each scout, and can be used to pay for dues or fees. But the money never goes to the scout, that would be unethical (and illegal), in my mind. Good luck.

You've received some good advice. And I agree with my buddy Barry that this is not unusual for a troop experiencing growth pains. My main advice would be to encourage the SPL. I think it's GREAT that the SPL took the initiative to make a decision. Use the opportunity to complement him and the PLC for their resolve to come up with a solution. Also, use it as a coaching opportunity to share with them the importance of the patrol method and how this decision should not have been made without input from the patrol members themselves. And, how it's a good idea to discuss these things with the SM before sharing it outside of the PLC. We had a similar situation to face. We were doing some patrol reshuffling. We solicited input from the boys that were going to be moved to see where they wanted to go. We were having difficulty getting the numbers to work out. They wanted to move a boy with a similar disability into a patrol with a scout that I knew would cause problems for him. I had to tell them that it wasn't an option to move him to that patrol, and to trust me that it just wasn't an option. As for SPL presenting to the committee. We've done it, but we don't do it on a regular basis. I like the concept, but it does open the potential up for the committee to overstep its bounds. That's why I shy away from the practice. MarkS - I respectfully disagree. The SM is not part of the PLC. While I believe it's good for the SM or ASMs to be present, it should not be required. I've had to miss a few PLCs, and I would hate to think it needed to be rescheduled because of my work schedule.

Bunch of us, class of '81

I have spoken to lads about lack of commitment in SM Conferences, and this would certainly be an example. I think the money problem is more an issue to take up with the parents.

I hear you Eamonn. I've been frustrated by it lately as well. We started this troop four years ago, and got off to a great start. The first three years brought us an enormous amount of adult support, as well as some great kids. Last year was a challenge, as one of the parents sought to sabotage the process. In the wake of this, we only got a handful of crossovers, from various backgrounds, and most with fairly dysfunctional families. No leaders came from the bunch, and only a few semi-active adults. We've been challenged as of late getting adult coverage for activities. Typically, we have more than enough adults involved. Summer camp and other "big" activities will have scout to adult rations of 3-1 or 4-1. But the average monthly campout has been an issue of late. There are a variety of reasons for the challenge. Several of the dads who have been in for several years (including myself) find ourselves with more unmovable conflicts as our kids have gotten older (proms, college visits, varsity games, etc.). Three of our most active adults are pilots, and their schedules are at the whim of their airline. Without the support of the younger kids parents, who all seem to have a "drop and run" mentality, it's hard to get the minimum coverage for a campout. Here's two recent events: 1) Backpacking trip. We had a backpacking trip scheduled for a weekend in March. There were numerous conflicts (church confirmations, a big school activity, etc.). We had one adult (me) and about eight scouts. Needless to say, this wasn't working. After several pleas, we decided to bump it a week. We got more scouts, but only one more adult. I was personally unwilling to go to an unknown trail, two hours from home, with two adults and 13 scouts. Again, I put out the pleas and got no response. At the Monday night prior to the event, after talking to several adults who had every excuse under the sun, I announced that for the first time in our history, we were canceling an event due to adult support. Of course, the next day I had a couple of adults who suddenly could make arrangements to be at "this part or that part" of the trip. I declined their help and hoped to make a point. 2) Last weekend we had our traditional campout for newly crossed over scouts. The older scouts go and teach them basic scout skills, play games with them and just get to know them better. It's one of the kids favorite campouts and has never been a problem. Again, excuse after excuse came from the adults. I was not going to cancel the campout. But, when we were at the church Friday afternoon, I asked again for a parent just to help drive (an hour) and drop us off. After getting nowhere, I finally announced (to the parents) that we were going to draw six names out of hat and they wouldn't get to go. And, my son and the sons of the other dads going, were definitely going. We finally worked out arrangements, but of course it involved someone who already goes "above and beyond" to step up and do it. The ones who never helped, still didn't help. So, yes, Eamonn. All those questions you asked "did I sell the concept? did I communicate well?...., they all keep bouncing around in my head right now. How do we get them to step up? I'm afraid of what might happen to this troop after those of us who have been so dedicated move on.

We don't fret about pre-payment for regular activities. We follow the "a Scout is Trustworthy" approach. If a scout signs up for an activity, he's responsible for paying his share, unless he backs out by the Monday prior to the activity. A list of everyone who signed up goes to the treasurer, who goes ahead and debits their scout account. Scouts are responsible for turning in payment at their patrol meeting. If they get behind, the treasurer gives a statement to the scout. Most of our scouts keep a small balance in their unit account to cover things like this. When reservations are required, like Summer Camp or a trip where we have to prepay (such as our trip to Patriot's Point this winter), are treated separately, and payment is required by the deadlines. We occasionally "float" a member that we know has financial challenges. We have a few families that sometimes have problems paying the bills and we do our best to help them out. I have been burned a few times by people backing out at the last minute. I had two scouts this year say they wanted to recharter (even though they had been pretty inactive). They had money in their accounts to cover it, but then told us a week or two later that they changed their mind. Even though the money was in their account, it could have saved the troop money by not re-registering them. Another family (who missed several meetings due to baseball during our Summer Camp signup) said that their son was going to Summer Camp. A few weeks prior to camp, when they finally returned to the meetings, they announced that they weren't going (baseball games). And, they clearly had no intention to pay. Luckilly, we had a new scout that we had not paid for, and the camp let us transfer the money from one boy to another.

'round here they are only allowed to bring a sleeping bag and pad. No tents. If the weather turns really harsh, they've been known to put them under some form of shelter (rifle range, archery range, picnic shelters, etc.). Mild weather is just considered part of the challenge. Our guys usually take a poncho or groundcloth, rope and possibly something they can form into a pole to make a shelter.

Ditto Brent.