EagleInKY

Not in here, but there is one at MSN that several here use. http://www.msnusers.com/boyscouts/chatroom.msnw

It's pretty fast paced. Nothing like it in scouts to compare to. Probably more like some management workshops you may have attended on the job. Only, you sleep in a tent at night. You'll get time to rest, but don't expect to take naps like you do when you're the scoutmaster on the campout.

It's Me - Is that "wonder" or "wander" I try to treat all eight methods as being of equal importance. It's difficult at times to do so. You tend to focus on where your weaknesses lie. Last year we were suffering in the area of boy-leadership, so we really worked hard in that area. Now we're struggling with the patrol system, so we'll focus more on that area. Uniforming has slacked off a little from my standards, but we're still among the best units I've ever seen. Like Kudu, I don't think the uniform synchs with our overall program, but I do the best I can with it.

Eagle76 - Sounds like time to conduct the "Troop Committee Challenge". This is a great training course for the committee and helps them understand their place in the organization. Include as many of your SM group as well. It's great to see the lightbulbs go on, "Oh, we're supposed to do/not do that???". SA - "I don't think the concept of virtual patrols for outing is a good one, however I think it is better than saying each patrol has to have a certain number of participants or no one from that patrol is allowed to go. If it happened more than a couple of outings a year, I guess we could look at forming fewer, larger patrols. " Well said. Let me, for the record, say that I am not in favor of virtual patrols. From time-to-time, they are necessary. And, in our troop's case, it's the boys that are deciding to do it. They'll come to me sometimes and ask, and I'll tell them it's up to them. As for high adventure activities, I think the crew concept often is the best solution. HA activities are often a cross-section of your troop (due to costs, interest and abilities). You have to be flexible in how you accommodate these things. Boy leadership is a must whatever you do. I've been to Philmont three times. Never did we base crew membership on patrols. Did it hurt the patrol system in the troop? I don't think so. We're putting a lot of attention on the patrol method right now in our troop. Of the eight methods, I believe it is the one we are weakest on. I hope that we'll see big improvements over the next six months.

There's a bagpiper at our week of summer camp. One day the troop will conduct the flag ceremony using him. The lad wears traditional scottish garb with his scout uniform shirt. It looks very nice. The lad is known all over the area for his talents. He's performed at many events representing scouting very nicely. If this were him, I would gladly allow him to wear his kilt. If, on the other hand, he's just trying to be different or show off, then I'd say no. So much depends upon the motiviation behind it.

If you haven't done so yet, please take the time to talk to the SM directly. Sometimes bad habits form and they grow because no one points them out to us. This sounds like more than that, but let's not overlook the obvious. It almost sounds like this SM has an axe to grind or there are some external factors impacting his actions. I'd try to get to the bottom of it and solve the root cause. Especially if this wasn't his style before.

Eagle76 - "The car-camping-only contingent on our committee recently voted to purchase an 8-man tent for the troop." Since when does the committee decide what type of camping the troop will do and what equipment to buy? In my opinion, these decisions are left up to the "program" side of the house - the PLC and the Scoutmasters. The committee's job is to procure what the program side wants. Not to make judgement calls on their plan.

We do Bob. (I would love to live in your world, where everything fits into a perfect box). Of the 12 boys in these patrols, two could not go backpacking. One is slightly overweight and has asthma, and the other injured his knee playing football. Both were okay hiking 5 miles, but not doing the backpacking for 15. Instead of staying home, they stayed back with the first year scouts and participated with them. Great scout attitude, in my opinion. Of course, we have the one scout who grumbles every time anything physical is involved on a campout. He stayed home. kenk - Regarding your other questions. If you see adults doing most of the cooking and cleaning, I would be concerned. Unless they are cooking just for themselves. As for tents, I, too, prefer the smaller tents. We usually go 2 to a tent, and 3 if we have an odd number of scouts or have a compressed area to sleep in.

Like SA, we've had to do it from time-to-time. We have two patrols that each have 5-6 boys in them. On a couple of occasions they've grouped together. It's definitely the exception, though. Sometimes we'll have special groupings due to the activity. For example, a couple of weeks ago we went camping where one group (mostly younger scouts) stayed in "base camp" and did a 5 mile hike. Most of the older guys went on a 15 mile backpacking overnighter. So, since it was a combination of boys from two patrols and the senior leadership, we acted as a "crew" with the SPL in charge.

scoutldr - A little off topic, but regarding the going home friday night problem... we make it very clear. We tell the parents before camp ever starts that the boys have to stay until Saturday. We're a team, we come in together and we go out together. Unless there is a valid excuse, which I'll certainly fair about, a boy has to stay. The saying goes "go home on Friday, don't come back on Monday" (troop meeting night). It's never been an issue, parents have always supported us on it.

First the clear cut one, yes you can have as many ASPLs as you need. As a troop gets larger, the SPL often needs help in running activities, providing guidance to the PLs and doing other tasks. Plus, you'll likely have multiple QMs, Historians, and other troop positions. The ASPLs primary responsibility is working with these guys. If you have more of them, you'll need more ASPLs to help provide guidance to them. Your first question requires some follow-up. Are you talking about in all situations or just specific times? The easy answer is that the SPL and ASPL are not part of a patrol. That's very clear. However, when you camp, where do they sleep? Who do they eat with? Some troops will have a "senior patrol". Don't confuse it with "venturing patrol", because they could be different. The "senior patrol" may often include the SPL and ASPLs. This is a throwback to the old Leadership Corps of the 70s and 80s. (One change I wish they hadn't made, oh well). At some events, like camporees, you have patrol-based activities. The SPL and ASPLs would like to participate in these as well, assuming they aren't helping run the event. In these cases, we'll let them participate in a patrol, usually based upon which one needs the help. We make sure to point out that during the competition, he is a member of the patrol and the PL is in charge. He can't wear his SPL hat at that time. Hope that gives you some answers. Add some specifics and we can help more.

Hunt, I think you captured the essence of what I was trying to say very simply. You said " I have to think that most scouts will want to do the MB over, or at least do the missed requirements and show you that he can do them.". That's our thought as well, and why we approach it just the way you described. I'm not talking about retesting every Merit Badge, I'm talking about the clear cut examples where we know the work was not completed. I've never had a scout say "I know I didn't do the work Mr. J, but I want the badge anyway". I'd be very disappointed in a scout who did.

Adding to the host of dittos. It's all in how it's explained. It may be reasonable, and it may not be. It just depends. Our pack annual costs sounds similar to Jerry's. However, at Roundup, we don't ask as much. This is mainly due to the fact that it only covers from Sept to Jan. We'll hit them for the full fee in January. We've had debates about shifting everything to a Sept-Aug year. We'd still have to recharter in January, though. So it may get confusing if we did that.

Welcome to our roundtable. Enjoy the time with the kids. Being a den leader can be a great experience, but watch out, some day you may end up as an ASM.

Arghh is right! While I agree that the first pack meeting is not often a thing of beauty, I would be very frustrated if this were my pack. Starting late is understandable, but the CM showing up 15 minutes late is pretty sad, and not in uniform to boot! There's really no excuse for the things you mention. CM is also the CC? Can't be, according to the rules. Someone else has to be officially registered as CC. If this is the norm for your CM, I think it's time for either a new CM or a new pack.

Several issues here: 1) Boys conducting BORs is a clear contradiction to the Advancement guidelines. Get a copy of the Advancement Committee guidebook and you'll see. This was a practice up until sometime in the 80's I believe. Personally, I thought it was a good idea, if properly done. But, apparently there were enough problems that the BSA changed the rules. 2) A family member should not be on the BOR. Even if you get problem #1 resolved, you need to make sure this doesn't happen in other ways (aunt, uncle, cousin, etc.) 3) BORs should be conducted privately, IMHO. We do ours in the classrooms at our sponsor (a church). It's best to have no distractions and the boy can feel comfortable giving honest answers without the fear of being overheard. 4) BORs are not retests. If a scout stumbles on the Oath and Law, it's NO BIG DEAL. I like the concept of having them recite it. It helps start things off in a dignified way, and acts as a "point of reference" during the BOR. We've only had one BOR be delayed because of a scout struggling with this. We had a scout coming for Tenderfoot that went into a total vapor lock. He couldn't tell you the oath, law, slogan, motto.... nothing. He totally froze. The BOR decided to table the discussion until the following week, giving him a chance to relax. Everything went fine the next week.

Bob, I guess you'll have to ask our Summer Camp director that. They give us the blue cards on Saturday morning before we leave, and we are told to review them for mistakes. Unfortunately, when I've found a mistake, the staff member in question is usually down the road tearing down tents and doesn't have time to come correct his mistake. I'm very aware of the policy. I'm also aware that a boy could not do the surface dive required for Lifesaving at SC this year. In the "status book" that the staff provides for leaders, they did not have him checked off as doing it. But when his blue card arrived, guess what? He was signed off as complete on the MB. We didn't catch the mistake until after we got home from Summer Camp. Now, according to your philosophy. We shrug it off and give the boy this Eagle-required Merit Badge. Even though he knows he didn't earn it, the other boys in his class (who did complete it) knows that he didn't earn it, and the whole troop and adult leadership knew he didn't earn it. I ask you, what are you teaching when you do that? It's an insult to the boys who did do the work, it lacks any sort of integrity and it's makes a total sham of the summer camp MB program. Sorry, I'll continue my practice. (Note that I only do this for summer camp badges, I've never questioned a regular MB counselor that a socut was working with.) I believe this approach is within the spirit of the program, it is based upon the Scout Law, and it allows the boy to decide the best approach to resolving the issue.

I agree in essence with Hunt's comment. Every year we get MB cards signed as complete, and we know good and well the boys didn't complete it. We get these on the morning of departure from SC, so it's difficult to go through 100s of cards and spot a mistake. What we do is talk to the scout and point out the mistake. Reminding him that "A Scout is Trustworthy", we talk about how to handle it. Nearly every scout will immediately say that he needs to complete the work before receiving the MB. We treat it as a partial from that point.

I'd recommend passing on it, but only you can be the judge. Another active thread regarding busy people contains the quote "if you want something done, ask a busy person to do it". But you can get too busy to be effective at any job. Good luck.

Motivation is the major factor. Our pack does tremendously well with popcorn. Even when the council switched from Trails End to Campmasters. (mistake, IMHO). Our troop, which is comprised of the same boys and families, does not do as well. Several reasons - popcorn "fatigue", lack of prizes, other fund raisers, competition with the pack, etc.

Welcome to the forum Swissknife. Great question and observation. There are variations in Cub Scout packs, but they tend to be less noticable. I think there are a variety of reasons. One is that Cubs are usually afilliated with a school, church or geography, (at least in my experiences), so there is less "shopping around". Second, because the boys are younger, they tend to follow the adults lead. Therefore it's much easier to have a checklist of how you do it. You're not going to get any pushback from them. Boy Scouts is different for a variety of reasons. One is that there is much more "shopping around" for troops. So troops develop personalities that meet the needs of their boys. Over time, these become engrained into their culture. This is okay, because it shouldn't be seen as "one size fits all". Beyond that, on the negative side, is that you get leaders who get engrained into their methodologies. My dad, a scouter of nearly 40 years, still swears by the "SM appoints the SPL" approach. He and I don't see eye to eye on that, but that's okay. He's still a good leader, and has a great troop, but we just do some things different. As long as the boys are learning and growing according to the aims and methods, and it's not because of a power-trip of the SM, I don't think it's a major deal. The bottom line is, yes they are different and that's okay. However, it would be "best" if all scouters followed the program as closely as possible. That's one of the ongoing discussions you'll find in this forum. Good luck.

One Hour - Good luck. Our thoughts and prayers are with everyone along the Gulf Coast, from Texas to Alabama.

>>Another question - is it appropriate, for me as SM, to ask the scout about the board of review process, and whether he thought he was treated fairly?

Scoutnut- I agree with almost everything you said. However, if the pack dues are annual, I would not give them a break on it. The reason is we set our budget based upon annual needs, and then set dues and fees accordingly. Often, the overall costs to run the pack for the year do not change because these two boys don't participate for a couple of months. They're still going to advance, earn awards, etc. Now, if the dues are weekly or monthly in nature, and cover specific activities during those months, my answer would change. But our pack doesn't budget that way.

TH - Welcome to the virtual campfire. Although, you may want to rethink your screen name. With your attitude of "jumping in feet first", you may be around a while. Eventually we'll have to call you "long_time_doing_this". As for Tigers, just have fun. Most people who struggle with Tigers try to make it much than it is meant to be. Have fun, make friends, try to get them to stick together for the long run.