EagleInKY

Lisabob - Good questions, I'll be interested to see what responses you get. I am not a child psychologist, nor do I play one on TV. But, I have worked with quite a few kids, including close to 30 that have joined our troop in the past 2 1/2 years. Here are my thoughts. 1. Do you find that most new scouts in this age group are capable of taking initiative on their own, or is this something they usually need to be taught? Assuming the latter, how do you help them learn this? I think you're probably going to find 1 out of 10 has this initiative. Maybe another 1 has it due to parents pushing them. About 2 out of 10 are as lazy as you'll ever run across. That leaves about 1/2 the group somewhere in the middle. I think you're goal is to try to get them lean toward the former side more than the latter. 2. Do you set aside specific time for advancement work during troop meetings? If so, who decides what skills should be taught, and who teaches them? How often do you do this? Yes. I wouldn't refer to it as "advancement" time. But we do spend a portion of time each meeting on "skills instruction". For first years this almost always relates directly to requirements for the first three ranks. It's up to the boys, however, to turn this instruction into advancement signoffs. The Troop Guide is responsible for this. An ASM is assigned to work with him and the NSP. 3. As adult leaders, do you make it known to the boys that you are available for assistance at specific times to scouts who want help with skills x, y, z? Or is it up to them to figure that out and contact you? Yes. But they seldom do. :-( 4. Do you encourage or expect scouts to contact youth- or adult-leaders outside of troop meetings, campouts, activities, etc. to work on rank advancement skills independently (like they might work on a merit badge with a counselor)? Yes, I encourage them. No, I do not expect them to. Usually, they wait until someone reminds them they need to do it. Campouts are often where this gets done, when there is time available. 5. Do you do nothing and wait until the boys finally "see the light" and seize the initiative on their own? We push them more in the first few months, and then let them develop on their own. For example, we do everything we can to help them earn Tenderfoot in the first two-three months. I would say that half of them probably make it. Most of the rest wrap it up in the next two months. Six months into this year, we've still got two boys who haven't earned Tenderfoot. But, they've come to less than half of the meetings and outings. So, go figure. 7. After a while, with boys who aren't advancing at these early ranks (ie, crossed over from cubs 6-9-12 months ago and haven't earned tenderfoot even though they're at most activities) do you start doing anything different, or do you let it be? If the boy is making the effort and struggling to pass a requirement, we'll certainly do everything we can to help or encourage him. If it's due to a lack of participation or effort, then there's only so much we can do. 6. Do you do something else, and if so, what? For Tenderfoot, we have a "Tenderfoot campout", about 2-3 weeks after crossover. On this campout, the older scouts teach the first year guys all of the Tenderfoot requirements, Firem'n chit and Toten Chip. This takes several hours on Saturday, with signoffs taking place on Sunday. It's a fun experience because it is entirely boy-run, and it really throws the new boys into the boy-run concept. For new parents on the campout, it's an eye-opener for them too. I expect a gradual increase in maturity and desire. For example, I set up nearly every Tenderfoot SM Conference. Why? Because the boys don't understand it. But by the time they get to First Class, I'm expecting them to ask about it. And by the time they get to Star and Life, I'll wait until the cows come home for them to ask me for it.(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

I think I'd sit down with him and discuss what he believes those two requirements to mean. If his definition is different from yours, you need to have a frank discussion. I would think you would have to get him to be involved for at least two months serving in some capacity. But he needs to do it with a scout spirit. Come up with a plan for how he can do that before his 18th birthday. If he doesn't execute it, he doesn't make Eagle, that simple. It may not be a bad idea to include the parents in on the discussion, or at least follow up with them on what was decided.

Amen Brother Barry and the Anarchist! You both had excellent posts. Put me in the "I'll do my best to use the BSA system but tweak it for our particular needs" camp. By "tweak" I don't mean eliminate boy leadership, eliminate patrols, etc. What I mean is we will do what we have to do to be successful today, while always working toward the ultimate goal - that of fulfilling all the aims and methods of the BSA. Since we are only in our third year, we don't have the older boys to worry about the venture patrol concept, but we are starting to think about it. I consider this one of those areas where we'll try some different things and see what works for us. Some things in the past we did that weren't "by the book": - Our first year we didn't have an SPL. We rotated the SPL duties between the two patrol leaders. Sometimes I had to act as the SPL, because the guys had no clue what to do. - We have often ate meals on campouts as a troop. A patrol would do the cooking, but they would serve the entire troop. This works well when you're small and you have very limited equipment. As we've grown, we're doing much more patrol-based cooking now. We made a number of concessions like these as we started out, and probably still do some today. But the goal is still in mind, and it seems closer all the time. Are we delivering the "Scouting Program". You betcha. And I'll gladly take on anyone who says otherwise (in a cheerful, friendly and courteous way, of course).

I agree with Lisabob. Our council does not require buying full cases, but we usually purchase a few extras and use for gifts. (School principal, church office staff, COR, etc.). Who knows, you may get a future customer hooked on the product.

There are several in the scoutmaster's minutes section of the forum. Make sure to look at all of them (not just the last year): http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewForum.asp?forumID=25 But, my all time favorite is "the most important word". See this one: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=19560 This had our guys going for several weeks.

lisabob - You are most likely correct. I would guess that most parents gravitate to the adult-led program because they see it as more organized. I only mentioned the other because I have heard a couple of parents say that in the past couple of years.

I found a pair of zip-offs at Land's End that matched the color of uniforms pretty well. They are great pants for outdoor activities. They are about the same cost as scout pants, but are much more functional. I've only had them a few months, so I don't know how durable they are. Sorry, I didn't save you any money, but it's a much more useful alternative.

Semper-dude, Thanks for driving the point home. I hazard to guess that when it comes to wit, you putt others to shame. You are truly among the Masters. I am sure that some folks get teed off by your caddy remarks. But you can chip them in here any time. I'll bag the issue for now, I'm sure he was just trying to be on the ball. ----------------- You know, this has become almost a Daly habit with you. Wie should take you out to the Woods-shed. Oh well. I've had my Phil of this, Jack.

Our committee meetings take place at the same time we have monthly patrol meetings. It works pretty well that way. The SPL is often roving from patrol to patrol, observing or helping as needed. If he's not too busy, I'll sometimes invite him into the committee meeting to talk about the next month's activities. I think it's a good experience for him and it also reminds the adults that its the boy's plan. He's usually not in there for more than 10 minutes.

An age-old problem with the thick-neck crowd. Technically, there's only one size of neckerchiefs. The uniform police will cite you if you are caught with an oversized one. But seriously, my neck is not all that big and I have issues with it, so I can only imagine the problem it causes for others. That's probably why you see so many scoutmasters going without one.

Ditto. The nature of the activity should determine what to wear. If it's a dirty, outdoor activity, then it would be ridiculous to require class As. However, if you are helping out at a nursing home, then it would be entirely appropriate to ask scouts to wear them.

Okay, before I tell what happened let me explain that our district does not follow the proper MB Counselor process. I've voiced this several times, but it's outside of my control. Our district has no MB Counselor list, each troop recruits their own MB Counselors. That means a lot of parents, committee members, and ASMs end up serving as counselors. We try to make the best of it. Had a few boys express interest in Golf MB. One of the dads had signed up to be a counselor for it. His son was one of the boys interested. Dad has been to MB Counselor orientation. I gave out a few blue cards about a month ago to the boys that were interested. This weekend, the boy (dad's son) turned in the blue card. He's done with the MB. None of the other boys were included/invited in on it. Now, I don't think there was any cheating going on. I'm sure the boy did the work. I know them well, and do not believe they meant any harm by it. Dad's out of town, so I haven't had a chance to ask him. He's a real laid back guy and I can just see him shrugging his shoulders and saying "hey, we were at the range, and had the time so we went on and did it...". Questions/Concerns. WOuld like some input: - Does the buddy system for MB Counseling even apply if the son is getting the MB from the father? - Do any of you limit sons from earning MBs from their fathers? - Since I've always been told that the MB Counselor has final authority, is there anything I can or should do?

This is a good list, I think they'll get a lot out of it. What I was missing when I was a WDL was an understanding of what a boy-led troop looked like. We visited two troops, one was boy-led to the extreme (i.e. no discipline, mostly fun & games) and the other was adult-led. I find that many WDLs and Webelos Parents fall into the trap of the adult-led program. That's because they look so organized and well-run. It's like Cub Scouts with bigger kids. Often these are Merit Badge mills as well, which looks great in a parent's eyes. They think "in this troop, little Johnny can earn Eagle before he's 14, and then move on...". Not sure how to address the latter, but something worth considering.

welcome to the campfire dorinh. Hope you enjoy your time here.

Valid point Longhaul. I just wanted to make sure that was listed as a possible reason. I think we'd both agree that the following are a list (not necessarily exhaustive) of reasons the committee may reject an activity: - Violates G2SS - Considered too dangerous by the committee (subjective, but a valid aregument) - Violates policies of the Charter Organization - Is too expensive, or possibly scheduled at a bad time. In any of the above cases, the committee should explain to the PLC and offer the chance to work on a plan that they will approve. For example, let's say a campout activity was to go do paintball. They may change it to going to a rifle and shotgun range, and the committee could approve it. Examples of reasons the committee cannot (or should not) reject a plan (again, not exhaustive): - They don't "like" the idea - They think they should do something else - They don't think it's worth the effort What's common about all of these, they are very subjective. The first list is mostly objective.

"They sit in chairs facing the stage and listen as one adult after another and an occasional PL or the SPL talks. " That says a world there. A COH should be dominated by boys. They may still be "boring", but kids will tend to enjoy it more if they are listenting to other kids. It sometimes is not as dignified (after all, they are kids). But it can still have a certain amount of formality to it. Consider the format of our COH this weekend: - Opening, by the first year patrol - Welcome, by the SPL - Welcome and introduction of new scouts & guests, by the SM - Activity report, by two scouts - Merit Badges, by an ASM - two more Activity reports, by scouts - Introduction of troop leaders, by SM & PLC - a couple more activity reports, by scouts - Rank advancement, by the SM - another activity report, by a scout - a video from our high adventure trip (whitewater trip) - Scoutmasters minute, by the SM - Thank you, by the SPL - Closing, by another patrol The SPL was the Master of Cermonies throughout the night. As you can see, it was dominated by boys. It was reasonably formal (not as much as an Eagle COH, but good enough). And the boys had a great time. It lasted about 1:20, because of the video.

Longhaul - I agree with your comment. Only I'll add that there could be some other reasons. The most common one I've heard discussed is "can we afford it". Sometimes the guys will bite off more than we can chew. But in those cases, the committee ought to give some feedback and see if a suitable option can be found.

Some of our younger guys have expressed interest in doing skits, but the older guys have nixed it. Personally, I'd rather see skits and songs around the campfire. Our COHs are far from perfect. I'm still trying to get the guys to raise the bar on their openings and closings. They are kind of weak. There's lots of things you can do to make it more interesting. You've already heard some ideas here. The main goal is to get the boys to do what they want to do (under the SM's guidance, of course). Here are a few things we've done over the past few years - - Held an outdoor COH with a campfire. This was done on our CO's property. - Had the scouts come early and prepare a meal, camp style, for the parents. - Shown videos from High Adventure trips. - Shown picture shows from outings. We usually use powerpoint whenever possible to add some visual flare (pictures, video, etc.). I also try to mix up the agenda, so it's not always the same from one time to the next.

Scouts are allowed ot sell popcorn in uniform, but that's the only exception.

Welcome to the forum. We antelopes aren't too interested in you feathered kind. We prefer chasing those of the four-legged variety.

Alcohol on a Cub event or even a wink-wink non-Cub event is wrong. Don't get this confused with going to Scouts day at a ballpark. There will obviously be alcohol there. But even in those cases, parents and leaders must refrain, since they are part of the activity. Committee Chairman needs to take the lead here. First, if it's widespread, make a general announcement or letter to the entire pack stating that it has to stop (without pointing fingers). If it's more on an individual basis, take the individuals aside and explain the policy. According to our DE, if someone refuses to comply to this rule, the council will take legal action to prevent them from coming to activities.

One more thought. When our troop was about one year old we had nine boys. They were not grasping the boy-lead thing at all. We held our first Troop JLT. It was a great experience and started the balls rolling in the right direction. Now I've seen the new YLT material. It's quite a bit different. I think it has some good stuff in it, but I'll probably pull some stuff from the old material as well. One thing I like about the new YLT is that it starts with the SM giving his/her vision of where the troop needs to be. I think this is a great experience. I did it for our boys in a troop meeting a few weeks ago. Some got it, others are still learning it. No matter where you are in this journey, you should have a vision of where you want to go next. Your vision will change, as your troop changes. That's to be expected. Put it in front of them and challenge them to help the troop get there. You'll be surprised what they can do!

Getting the PLC scheduled is important. We make it part of our calendar. They meet once a month for almost an hour, and then have informal meetings in between. They actually need more formal meetings, but they haven't gotten there yet. Ours recently went through a great change. I and a couple of ASMs are normally present, and we try to keep fairly quiet. Arriving at a PLC meeting a few months ago, the SPL told me it was going to be in a different classroom. It's a smaller room, with a smaller table. There were only enough chairs around the table for the youth. Where were the adults to sit??? In the chairs along the wall. This was the SPLs idea, to make it visibly clear that we were not part of the PLC, but mearly observers/advisors. I knew we had made it across another threshold when he did that.

That's not an easy question, as worded. We need to know specificially what area of the troop you are talking about. For example, if you are asking "who decides what types of activities the troop is going to do, plans those activities and carries them out?", my answer would be "the PLC". The boys run the troop, so they are "in charge" of carrying out the activities. The Scoutmaster is responsible for the troop program. His main responsibility is to guide/assist the SPL in carrying out his responsibilities mentioned in the previous paragraph. The Committee provides the "ways and means" behind running the troop program. The PLC comes up with a plan, the SM helps them put it all together, and then the committee is asked to enable that to happen. That means providing the necessary resources (money, equipment, people, etc.) to make it happen. The Charter Organization has the final say in things. But generally, most stay out of the way as long as you are not taking aware from their vision, program or reputation. Some people have asked me to compare it to a business, how would the org chart look? If this were a retail company for example, the SPL would be a store manager and the PLC his supervisors on the floor. The Scoutmaster would be the COO, making sure operations was meeting its goals and giving them guidance. The Troop Committee would be the administrative arm of the company (G&A), making sure the bills got paid, the law is followed, and other administrative stuff. The CO is like the Board of Directors, who have an interest in the success of the program, but don't dictate policy down to the store. I strongly encourage the troop committee take their training module, which contains an activity called the "Troop Committee Challenge". It's a real eye-opener for a committee that doesn't understand their role. I encourage you to do it as a group, so you get the maximum impact. Also, one disagreement with Beaver, I do not read anywhere that it says the committee is a majority vote. In contrast, I was trained that the Troop Committee Chairman has the ultimate call. Although, most would always go with the majority.(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

Oh well, here you go. You get a candle. Not a little one, but one that will burn for several hours. At the beginning of every meeting you light it. Refer to it as the spirit of scouting. When their behavior gets bad, you blow out the candle. When the candle burns to the bottom, they get a treat. When we had Cubs, we would to a pizza party or some kind of special trip. The peer pressure to behave is enormous on the boys. Especially when it's the same one or two causing the problem. One of the age-old debates is whether to relight the conduct candle during the same meeting. (I understand Lord Baden-Powell and Ernest Thomas Seton used to debate this at great length over a cup of cocoa and s'mores). The fear is that if you don't relight it, the boys have nothing to lose, so they'll be totally out of control (this was Seton's point of view). We followed the recommendations of the Powell-Seton Compromise, which was settled at the First International Scouter's Roundtable. The compromise was to set a time limit for relighting the candle. This way, the candle would remain out for ## minutes after the last behavior issue. If they act up again, the clock restarts.