EagleInKY

I have the scouting with LD book at home (I think). I'll try to remember to look it up for reference this evening.

I agree with Ed. We do the same in our unit. Our BOR questions are a balance of "what you did?/how you do it?" questions and more open-ended questions "how have you demonstrated thriftiness?", "If a friend offered you drugs, how would you respond and has scouting had any impact on that decision?", "What's your favorite thing to do (inside or outside of scouting)?", "Do you like scouting? Why?".

Yes, I agree the outings chair is the right person for the job. But how many packs actually have someone step up for this position? I know of very few. It almost always ends up being the Cubmaster or one of the other leaders. Not that it's the right answer, just how it usually is.

We have an MSR and a Jetboil. The Jetboil is pretty cool, and since most backpacking meals are about heating water, it serves the purpose very well and very quickly. And, as was said, the coffee press is a lifesaver!

We mostly do car camping, but I'm slowly trying to get them to change it. We did a backpacking trip last year and are doing a survival campout this year. I'm trying to get the guys to understand that variety is good. I wouldn't want to be in a troop that only backpacks any more than I want to be in a troop that only car camps.

Welcome to the forums Anne. You've gotten some good advice. I also have found that individual recruitment is much more effective. Look at the needs you have, and then go look for parents that can help fill the void. General announcements are usually ineffective, and you run the risk of having the "wrong" person step up.

Three years ago, our first summer camp, all of our scouts were first years. The shower facility was an open shower with 6 or 8 shower heads. There were lots of problems. Older scouts harassing younger ones. We ended up having to walk them up there and stand outside to monitor any issues. Two things have happened since then. First, the camp has put in shower stalls. This has been a tremendous improvement. Second, we have older guys now now. The older ones look out for the younger ones. I don't think any adults walked up with them last year.

We use Troop Guides. In our troop, the TG is appointed by the Scoutmaster, with input from the SPL and the ASM for the NSP. If we ever have two NSPs, we would have two TGs. The JASM, as others have stated, is essentially acting as an ASM. He still has to abide by youth rules in regards to YP guidelines. In some troops the JASM appointment is automatic once a boy is 16 and makes Eagle. Other troops look only at the most mature boys that are really transitioning into adult-hood.

Oh, come on. This is like our version of the song "It's 5 O'clock Somewhere". Surely we can say "it's tomorrow somewhere".

I've heard this discussed before, and believe a troop or two around here have tried it. You may run into challenges due to the fact that it competes with local businesses providing these services. The flip side of the argument is that this is a one-time offering vs. an ongoing service. I think you'll get some leeway because of that. As for safety, I think they had to stipulate that power tools could not be used by the scouts. Also, for YP the buddy system had to be employed and there had to be reasonable adult supervision. One adult may be able to supervise a few "crews" if they are close together, but the scouts could not be turned loose totally on their own. I've never tried it myself, but that's some of the rumors I've heard.

Here is my understanding. I'm a SM. Our district does not maintain a list of MBCs. Each troop maintains their own. So, I have some discretion over who even considered to be MBCs. Once I sign a Blue Card, however, my understanding is that it is out of my hands. Whatever the MBC decides, I have to accept. It could have a bearing on future use of that person as an MBC. I have had situations, especially summer camp, where a scout receives a blue card and clearly did not complete the work. In those cases, I've talked to the scout and asked them what they felt was the right thing to do. In every case, the scout has agreed that he should complete the work. We've assigned a new MBC for him to work with to complete the MB. I have had situations where I believe an MBC was too lenient. In every one of these cases it was the same scout and it was because of a fear of a "bully parent". I actually think this gives credence to the idea that the best MBCs are ones that the boys don't know through the troop. Unfortunately, in our district, it's just the way it is.

Isn't it great to see it all come together? Congrats on your progress.

An hour per week per scouts... that's funny. And, not that far from the truth. I'd say that when we were small and new, it was more like two hours per week per scout, but not it's considerably less.

NSPs are usually set up as a temporary means to help a scout get acclamated to Boy Scouts. They exist for a purpose, to ease the transition. Our NSP is dissolved after about 10 months, I've heard of some troops that only keep them as short as 6. At that point, we do a patrol reallignment, where the guys get into patrols with who they want. The point I'm making is that the young scout needs to understand that it is likely a temporary situation. Come aboard, work on his early rank advancements. Get to know the guys in a variety of settings. In all likelihood he can be in that other patrol in a fairly short time.

I hear you Jo. In fact, that's exactly what led us to start our own troop three years ago. We had choices of lots to go to, most of which were adult-ran (including the mega-troop Merit Badge University where you can get a PhD in Eagle by attending their weekly Merit Badge sessions). We also had at least one "boy-run into the ground" troop, which can be just as bad. My only concern would be whether you could keep up that 35 minute commute over the long haul. When your son hits that sophomore slump that some boys experience, it may be tough getting him to maintain the commitment.

There are eight Web 1s (there were 11 Web 2s). About six of the Web 1s are pretty strong. Two or three of them have older brothers in our troop. We also already have a very energetic, positive Den Chief lined up to work with them for the next year. I'm pretty confident that we'll get at least six, which is a nice size growth (in terms of percentage) for our troop. We're looking at other recruiting opportunities. Frankly, I was amazed at how many of the kids in this group we lost did not want to do outdoor things. I think it was largely caused by the parents, but I could not get over how many kids said they absolutely did not want to camp, hike, go canoeing, etc. So, we may go to the 6th & 7th graders in the fall and see if we can find a few adventurous types. The other thing we've never done is recruit from neighboring packs. We kind of took for granted that we'd always have some coming up from our ranks. We've never really recruited with other packs that are very close in proximity to us. Another lesson learned...

When you transfer units, you simply fill out a new application and file it through the new unit. There is a $1 transfer fee. Now, it can get a little tricky if the units don't recharter on the same schedule. The registration is good through the former units recharter date. For example, let's say your unit recharters on a calendar year basis. That means that little Johnny is registered through 12/31/06. His family moves this summer and he joins a new pack in the fall. He fills out an app and they pay the $1 transfer fee. But, let's say they recharter on 1/31/07. In this case they will also have to pay for one additional month of Johnny's membership and Boys Life fees. Make sense?

Fortunately, I don't have much experience with this problem. I agree with those that have said to communicate as much as possible with everyone. You should in no way expect to navigate the emotional and legal issues going on between them. It's funny, but some of the biggest communication problems I've experienced has been with some of the MARRIED parents in our troop.

Welcome ladyleader. We're glad to have you here. Seems like we've been getting a lot of growth from the NY area lately.

Barrys comments just hit me as so powerful, and I appreciate his thoughts more than he can possibly imagine. As does ASM reminding me of Forest Witcraft's letter. A couple of weeks ago I posted about a challenge I had with some adult leaders on a campout. Thankfully, that is water under the bridge and weve all grown because of it. At that time I alluded to another big issue looming that was really eating at me. I didnt have the heart to share it at the time, because it was so frustrating to me. Now I will. I apologize for its length, but it is a complicated web of deception and an example of what happens when adults think the program is for them instead of for the boys. It serves as a reminder about how this "vision thing" is critical and that we have to constantly sell it. Just when I thought I was going to get to sit back in my easy chair, someone yanked it out from under me. A quick background our troop is 3 years old, built from a pack that I and a group of other adults rebuilt from the ground up over a period of 4 years. We took the momentum that started with the pack and carried it over into the troop. In three years weve only had three boys drop out of Scouting (out of over 25). Weve had three others go on to other troops (but that was at our request as much as theirs). We have a growing high adventure program, a maturing group of boy leaders and a phenomenal group of adult leaders to work with us. We currently have 21 scouts and 5 assistant Scoutmasters! Eleven more serve on our Troop Committee. Sixteen of twenty families have an active, registered adult leader. But where there is sunshine there are often clouds that tend to get in the way. The man that took over for me as Cubmaster also has a son in the troop. He was actively involved in both programs. For a variety of reasons that I wont go into here, this turned out to be a disaster. It started turning ugly during the second year when we began in earnest to make the troop boy-led. When he realized that a troop committee member had very little say-so in a boy-led program, he began to complain about anything and everything. He soon became shut-out as no one (including Council) would listen to him. The CM position became a power trip for him. He began wanting to do things his way. He began to run off good leaders and their boys from the pack. I soon began to realize that he was trying to sabotage the program. I honestly believe he was trying to bring me down (yes, it has become personal to him) by taking the knees (i.e. the pack) out from under us. Therefore, the pack committee decided he needed to step down. One of the only leaders that still had a decent relationship with him spoke with him last spring and convinced him to step down for health reasons. He agreed. Over the summer we selected a new Cubmaster. The man is a wonderful guy with scouting experience. He has a son in the troop and two in the pack. Hes great with kids. His only weakness is that he is more than a little disorganized. We agreed to give him the organizational help, if he would be the voice of the pack. As this year started in September, we continued to wrestle with the former CM to get him to give us all the information we needed. He kept rosters, registration data and all kinds of information from the new CM. For example, we only found out at recharter time that he had deliberately withheld about ten names of Cub Scouts that registered at a round-up! These kids had signed up and never received a follow-up from us! It took until January to finally wrestle the info from him. In the meantime, the pack has probably lost over 25% of its membership because people are growing frustrated over the lack of communication and disorganized leadership. But he still wasnt done... We found out that he moved his youngest son up from the Web 1 den to the Web 2 den because he wanted him to get his AOL in six months. We found this out after he had already been doing it for several months. It turns out that he was in cahoots with the Web 2 den leader to do this. He and his older son (who is still in our troop, believe it or not), have been helping with the den. (Side note - I had offered him a Den Chief and he declined.) All of this was going on while we were doing the typical recruiting during the Web-to-Scouts transition. Ive been talking to the Web 2 den leader, inviting them to things, visiting den meetings, etc., and this has never come up. The Web leader was telling me, everythings going great, almost all of the guys are planning on coming your way in the Spring. Well, I found out two weeks ago at the Blue & Gold that it was all a lie. Theyve been visiting another troop behind our back and almost all of them are going there instead. Our troop, which has received 25 of 26 Webelos in the past three years, is getting none of them. Ive spoken to several of the Web parents since then. They all deny that the former CM had anything to do with it, but I cant get them to tell me anything that he said about the troop. I can tell they are holding something back. The frustrating part is the reasons they give for going to the other troop (the mega-troop in our area). One is that they liked the classroom style troop meetings where the scouts can pick MB classes to attend each week. And the second is that you dont have to go camping with that troop. We all know that both of these excuses while a fair characterization of that troop are not what scouting is supposed to be. So, what are we going to do? We are taking the high road. These leaders are now gone and cannot work from inside any more. Weve tried to salvage a relationship with the boys from the group that we think would be good scouts. We hope that they will see the light in a few months after going to that troop. Maybe they will, maybe they wont. Time will tell. Until then, Im sticking to the vision. Im not going to allow a bump in the road, as big as this one is, to derail what is a great program. Were going to look at some other recruiting options school days, friends days, open houses, etc. Were also going to make sure that we never get hoodwinked by a dishonest leader again. I trusted that the den leader was communicating to the parents and Webelos for me. I now know that he wasnt. We are going to communicate directly with the scouts and their parents as much as possible. But in the end it gets back to selling the vision. It's easy to look at something like this and think that we need to change and be more like that other troop. But the right answer is to come up with more effective ways of promoting the vision of scouting and how our troop fulfills the vision and mission of scouting, real scouting. We're going to have some real heart-to-heart conversations over the next few weeks about this, but I think, as it has been said, what we are going through will make us better in the end.

Beavah - I realize that a 10 minute preparation is not reasonable to expect, but it demonstrates that if the committee has its act together, it should be able to pull together a BOR in a reasonable amount of time. This particular case was because of an oversight by the AC. The lad had been waiting three weeks. He was scheduled for a BOR the week before, but was #4 of 4 scouts in line. They ran out of time and he got bumped a week. He knew that there was a possibility that it would happen and it did. We didn't want to see him get bumped again because of an adult mistake. I know what you mean about impatient kids and parents (more often it's the parents). We try to schedule the BOR within 1-2 weeks of the boy completing the requirements. I have had parents complain and I have to explain the "it's a journey not a race" philosophy again.

Welcome to the roundtable. We're always happy to see someone with your experience join our ranks. We look forward to hearing much more from you.

As has already been laid out, the BOR is the last requirement in the advancement process, so the statement is correct that tenure is counted from that point. However, I too have problems with a troop that only schedules quarterly BORs. We do BORs "on demand" as well. Typically I'll tell the Advancement Chairman that we'll need a BOR the following troop meeting. I'll tell him the rank(s) and the scout(s) so he can make sure to have the right makeup (no parents, etc.). Additionally, at our monthly committee meeting I'll give them a heads up on potential BORs. Of course, much of that is depending upon the scouts actually finishing their work. But when you see a lad getting down to one or two requirements you generally have a feeling about how long it's going to take them to wrap them up. Funny, these guys think they need so much time to pull a BOR together. Our AC forgot about setting up a BOR a few weeks ago. It was an honest mistake, these things happen. He walked in before the troop meeting with intentions of dropping his son off and heading home. I handed him the paperwork from Troopmaster for the BOR. He had a stunned look on his face. He "captured" a committee member that was about to leave and called another at home and set up the BOR on the spot. Ten minutes later they were starting the BOR. So the time requirement explanation for the quarterly BOR is not a valid excuse.

Hey Chad, welcome to the campfire. I hope you're not of the "hanging" kind. (I guess those jokes are old to you now). Welcome anyway.

We stole the "no parent's on outings" slogan from Oren's Grump manual. We often say the same thing. No parents are allowed, but adults are certainly welcome.