EagleInKY

As long as the troop is not the sole beneficiary, then it should be acceptible. Now, if you tell me that 80% of its use is going to be the troop, and less than 20% by the public, then I might encourage the scout to look elsewhere.

Echo the comments of the others. I wouldn''t allow a scout to attempt a 20 mile hike if he hadn''t at least done a 10 or 12 miler with ease. 20 miles in a single day is a big challenge. We''ve been talking about doing one, and probably will fairly soon. But I would bet that it''s only at least scouts that are 13 or 14. I wouldn''t base it solely on age. I''d look at age, physical condition and mental condition of the scout. If you have a scout that whines his way through a 5 mile hike, he''ll drive you crazy through a 20 miler, assuming he can actually make it.

I agree with those that said you don''t remove him, you coach him. This is a lesson for both the scouts and the SPL. We have one patrol that floats back and forth between picking a "popular" PL and an "organized" PL. The "popular" PL is fun, laid back, doesn''t tell them to do anything. Consequently, the patrol is always a mess when he''s in charge. The "organized" PL is a little bossy, but has his stuff together. When he''s in charge they know what''s going on, they arrive on time, they have what they need on campouts, etc... They constantly flip back and forth. As for the "what if he refuses to change" question, there could be a point where removing a scout from office is the appropriate thing to do. Refusing to be a servant leader to the scouts as SPL is certainly something that could warrant that, if it is an outright refusal (as compared to willing, but unable).

We''ve built signal towers as a pioneering project. The boys built the structure, supervised by older scouts with some adults validating the work. We built two structures, about 12-15 foot high, and let the scouts climb up. We even had an old-fashioned signaling competition. The boys LOVED it. We had some reasonable rules - only 2 scouts on the structure at a time, no horseplay, etc. An adult was watching it at all time. I was never worried. Frankly, if we cancel every activity out of fear of lawsuits, we might as well pack it all up and go home. my $0.02

Any unit can set their own membership requirements. I know of "closed" troops, who basically only take boys coming from their pack, or perhaps boys have to be a member of their church. These are perfectly fine (albeit some one say shortsighted). Our troop has this policy - any boy can crossover from our pack and is welcome to join. A scout coming from anywhere else is asked to visit with us for two months before we joining the troop. He must attend at least one campout during that time. If we''re all okay with him, then he''s in. The decision is really made by the SM & ASMs, but we let the Committee Chair and COR know, just in case they might have an issue. And so they''ll know the facts and back us up. (We''ve only had one occasion where we felt this way and it never came to pass, the boy never tried to place membership). I would NOT allow the PLC to make this decision. It becomes a popularity contest. I know a troop where this is out of control. If a boy comes in with a learning disability, he''s rejected by the PLC. Fat and awkward, no dice. Goofy looking, forget about it. Their troop is small and cliquey. The boys all look alike.

We also follow the "adults only" cell phone rule. But, in reality, it''s a don''t ask don''t tell. As long as I don''t see it or hear it, I don''t care. If I caught a scout using it during a campout (not in an emergency), I''d probably take it from him until the end of the event, just as I would an inappropriate knife or other item. I''ve had two bad experiences with scouts and cell phones at Summer Camp. The first was when some parent''s sent a boy who had a "high homesick risk" and allowed him to take his cell phone. They told him to not let me see it, and call them if he needed anything. Well, he tried to sneak off and use it, only to find out that there wasn''t any coverage at our camp. He then had a major meltdown. We barely were able to keep him there through the week, and he ended up dropping out later. The second was an older scout that always liks to defy me. He brought his out of spite - he knew he couldn''t use it there because of the signal. He accidentally left his daypack at the rifle range one day and never saw it (or the cell phone) again. Of course, knowing he wasn''t supposed to have a cell phone, he didn''t tell us about that it had that in it. I assumed it was just filled with the typical summer camp stuff. We tried to find it, but it never turned up. If I had known it had a cell phone, I would have made a bigger deal of it. The ironic thing was that the parents sent a nasty letter to the council criticizing me and the camp for it.

I agree with the comment that you can''t compare dues & fees between units unless you understand what it provides. For example, our annual dues are $40 and monthly dues are $5 (totaling $100 for the year). Each activity is charged out at cost - usually around $12 a weekend, but it can range from $5 to $100 depending upon the activity. We provide all patrol & troop equipment (tents, stoves, lanterns, propane, etc.). The activity fees cover costs of patrol food. We''ve been struggling to get scouts to participate in "troop fundraisers" (where all proceeds go to the troop). Most will gladly write you a check, but don''t ask them to help the troop earn money to buy equipment. Consequently, we''re talking about raising our annual dues next year and not do any "Troop Fundraisers", but only do fund raisers that contribute to the scout''s individual account.

Whew, thanks Terry. I was beginning to go into serious fits of withdrawel. "Hello, my name is John, and I am a Scouter.com-aholic".

We do an annual survival campout. We''ve done various things in the past to challenge them in the various aspects of survival - shelter building, signaling, rescue, and cooking. For cooking, we''re looking for some new ideas this year. In the past we''ve done things like cooked in an orange peel, boiled water in a paper cup, etc. Does anyone have any good ideas out there? I know you do. Incidentally, how we usually do this is that we provide each patrol with a set of materials - and no instructions. They have to figure out how they can make a meal out of it. It''s pretty entertaining.

He continues advancement where he left off. If he did 8 of 10 activities, then he has two more to do. If he completed 6 of 8 service hours, then he has 2 to do. If he completed 150 of 180 days of a POR, then he has 30 days left to do.... you get the picture. And, don''t fall into the MB partials must be completed within a year hype. That''s another "Scouting Urban Legend". If he started working on hiking MB and just has one hike left to do, then that''s where he is.

You really should have a budget that shows where money is coming in from and where it''s going out to. If you had this, the question would be easier to answer. I would certainly look to see how the money could be used to lower the cost of scouting for everyone involved. However, I wouldn''t just go out and pay every scout''s summer camp cost just to get the surplus down. How about saving for a rainy day? I''ve been told that any organization (not business) should have at least six months budget in your account at all times. It sounds like you have more than that. But think about this. If you lost everything the troop owned - tents, stoves, lanterns, flag, trailer, etc. How much would it cost to replace it all? When you think of it that way, that surplus probably won''t sound so large. And yes, I know of a couple of troops that have lost almost everything they owned. Bottom line - I''d use some of it for the boys, and save the rest for future needs.

It''s a tough time to get through, but it''s worth it. I was there a couple of years ago. To get through it, you really need to coach the SPL on what to say and do. Of course, as I found out with one of ours, the SPL has to be willing to listen and act on that coaching. When he doesn''t there''s little you can do. The number one thing you can do is totally back-up and support your SPL. That means that even when he makes some decisions that you wouldn''t make, you support him wholeheartedly. When he messes up, use it as a coaching moment. But always try to do so privately. When the scouts learn that even you follow the SPL''s direction, they''ll learn to follow as well.

Duplicate post.(This message has been edited by EagleInKY)

We''re contemplating starting an "honors" patrol. I''ve got concerns, but I also can see some potential value. Our troop is still relatively young. We''re in our 5th year. Our oldest scout is a senior, 4 sophomores, 6 Freshmen. 28 scouts total. The largest population are 8-9 graders. The last two recruiting classes have been smaller (5 6th graders, 3 7th graders). Our PLs of our "regular" patrols are 8th & 9th graders. SPL & ASPLs are 9th & 10th graders. We have elections and job assignments every six months. Two of our oldest scouts have recently finished lengthy "tours of duty" in the senior positions - SPL, ASPL, Troop Guide, etc. For the past 2+ years they''ve served in these senior positions. Now they are Instructors. Both are working on Eagle Projects. Both are still active - as much as their extra-curricular activities allow. They also do a good job of teaching & mentoring the younger scouts. One thing we''ve noticed, in very limited scenarios, is that it''s awkward for these 16-17 year old Life (almost Eagle) scouts to go back into regular patrols with 7th-9th graders. The PL and the younger scouts are sort of intimidated and often will sit back and wait for these older scouts to decide what to do. These scouts, recognizing this, try to sit back and let the PL run the show... and you get a virtual stale-mate of no action. The idea we''re contemplating is similar to jblake''s. It would be limited to scouts that have served in senior leadership capacity and want to continue being active and value-adding members of the troop. We want them to model what a good patrol looks like and we want them to mentor the PLs and other youth leaders to be successful. While I want it to be a little "elitist" (as in, it''s an honor to be a part of it), I certainly don''t want it to be separate from the rest of the patrols. The other option we''ve considered is to just wait for them to make Eagle and make them JASMs instead. But then you run into the question of where to put them. The SPL, ASPLs (2) and Troop Guide would also function as members of this patrol while they are in office.

I too was disappointed that my council did nothing for the 100th anniversary of scouting or the scouting sunrise. I spoke about it alot with my troop, not that we did anything formal. I just incorporated it into my scoutmaster's minute and some activities on the campout the weekend before.

I've seen these boys, anyone else who has been around scouting very long have as well. Gunny gave you some good advice. But the real harsh reality is that you have primarily one problem - scout #3. In my experience, when scout #3 leaves, the other two suddenly enjoy scouting much more. They seem like two that you can reason with. With #3 out of the picture, you can get them excited about advancement, leadership and high adventure. I'd have the SM conference with #3 and explain to him your feelings. If he's bringing down the troop, refusing to shop for his patrol if his friends aren't there, etc., then you have a clear case of not living by the scout oath & law. You can use this to buy some time and see if he turns around. I have had to do that, and the results have been generally favorable. The final thing, and Gunny mentioned this as well, is make sure you're doing the fun things that the guys will want to do and will be excited to tell their friends about.

I'm not sure of the rule regarding adults. If it were a youth, the rules are very clear. As an adult leader, if you hear of any accusation, you must report it to the scout executive. As for this case, I think it would be wise to at least clue the SE in on the fact that there may have been something, even if it proves to be groundless.

Pack212Scouter - Welcome to the forum. Are you at SE Christian? My dad is involved with a AHG troop started over in j-town, I know they've gotten some resources from you all. It sounds like a great program and a good alternative for those that want something different than the GSUSA.

Ouch! Ron, I feel for you. I hope you can get them trained.

Welcome to the forum! We look forward to hearing your perspective on things from your side of the pond. I can't speak German, but I sure can recognize it when I hear it.

I guess our troop is kind of a hybrid. We have a committee, they have a chairman, secretary, treasurer, advancement coordinator, a few other positions and a few at large members (troop of about 30). They handle Boards of Review as well as the troop finances & such. They don't typically meet as an individual group, but just coordinate things informally when they need to do so. The monthly meetings are committee/parent meetings and everyone, including SM/ASMs are invited. We review what is coming up, budget issues, advancement topics, etc. They also line up adult help for special projects as necessary. The SPL often comes in to give an update. If a Life Scout has his Eagle project plan together, he'll present it to the group (after he's already reviewed it with the SM & Adv Chair). These meetings sometimes spin out of control, and I have to reign them in and remind them of their role. Like Oak Tree, I don't care about whether certain responsibilities are covered by ASMs or committee members. For example, we need a coordinator for the annual Scouting for Food can drive. This is the person that goes to the district to map out our territory, gets the fliers, gets a trailer and boxes for hauling, etc. He/She works with the PLC to make sure it's on the calendar and announced. We usually use committee members for these types of roles, as they are very much behind the scenes and are little value-add to the boys. The SM/ASMs are involved to help make sure the activity goes off as planned. Does that make sense?

I concur with most of the other comments - and I do believe it's up to the troop to figure out what works best. The TG is not part of the NSP, but should spend a lot of time with them - and even eat with them on campouts. Our TG is considered to be part of our senior staff, and typically tents with the SPL & ASPLs. In some situations he has bunked with the NSP, but that's not the norm.

Barry, You took the words almost directly out of my mouth. We are involved in both scouts and church youth group. Our church youth group is very active and there are often schedule conflicts. I let my son choose which wins, and I would guess scouts win 3 out of 4 times. He loves scouts and he loves his youth group. What he loves about his youth group is the fun, fellowship, spiritual "lift" and the fact that he doesn't have to do much other than show up. What he loves about scouts is the fun, fellowship, emotional "lift" and the sense of accomplishment he gets from planning and carrying out the program. Our youth minister is trying to develop some of the kids into being leaders. My son is one of the ones he has keyed in on. (Actually, if you look at it, most of the youth he's depending on are also scouts). He's looking to them to lead devotionals, encourage the less involved, set a good example, etc. I think it's great that he's doing this, and it will add to the overall experience. But it's nothing compared to the leadership experience that these guys get in scouting. I can only assume jambo's experience is with one of those sad troops that do the same thing week in and week out. Troop meetings are nothing more than capture the flag and meal planning for the next campout. MB classes are probably organized and add some structure from time to time. Each year the campout plan pretty much mirrors the previous year.... maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I'm sensing. Our troop has made the slow journey toward boy-leadership and we're definitely closer to it now than we've ever been. I don't think you ever "arrive", because as soon as you do, you get a new SPL or a new PLC and you have to teach them all over again. But even with boy leadership, we're doing lots of fun things. We just got back from climbing, rappelling and hiking this weekend. A few weeks earlier we had a campout and ran an orienteering course. This year we've sailed at Seabase and spent a weekend on a carrier. We've camped in the snow, sun and rain. We've camped in this state and a neighboring state. We've gone back to some places we've camped before, and gone to some ones we've never seen. We did our first bike trek. In a few weeks we'll have our annual lock-in at the local indoor soccer arena. Soccer, flag football and dodgeball all night long, what more could a boy ask for? Who's idea was it to do it first? You got it, the PLC. Anyway, I could go on and on. Boy-run is not the problem, boy-run is the solution, assuming the adults know (1) how to live with it and learn from it and (2) are willing to work with the boys to develop the program. Barry, I know you know this because you and I both "love this scouting stuff".

We do patches ASAP, and do formal recognition (w/cards) at COH. Patches for activities are usually held until the COH.

I know LodgeChief through our local lodge & Summer Camp. I believe it was Eagle74 (or one of those other "Eagle year names" that was at summer camp the same time as us a few years back, but we didn't realize it until later.