EagleInKY

Saintcad - The BSA does have recommended procedures. As I understand it, each camp adapts it for their particular situation (geography of camp, size of facilities, etc.). These procedures are changed from time to time based upon the best knowledge and information we have. For example, our camp has changed the severe weather procedures from "meet at the dining hall" to "meet at the prescribed shelter located near your campsite". Clearly, this article is written from one perspective. That is not unusual for these types of lawsuits. The defendant rarely goes public with their defense before the trial. The press will certainly eat this up and the BSA should probably work on how to address this publically. If the lawyers and anti-scout folks have their way, we'll eventually be an indoor, crafts & cookies program. No wonder membership is slipping.

Calico - That's a great question. It's something that only came to my realization in the past few weeks. I plan on talking to our committee chairman and have him and the committee work it out. Our financial goal as a troop is to get to the point where we won't have to collect money for individual activities, so it may resolve itself. But in the meantime, it's something we need to think about.

It's pretty much been covered, but I'll go ahead and chime in with my take on it. First, it was stated before and it's worth stating again. Funds raised under the premise of being a charitable donation must belong to the troop. Giving it directly into the pockets of scout families is illegal. Generally, there's two approaches to handling funds. The first is to put all moneys into a general fund. Then, you use that money to purchase equipment, patches, etc. You might also use that money to augment the cost of activities, summer camp, etc. In this way, everyone gets an equal share of the pie. It's totally legal and above board. The only down side is that scouts who don't put any effort into it, gets the same value out of it that scouts who do. The second method is meant to address that shortcoming. It allows portions of the profits to be allocated back to individual scouts. Then these scouts can use those funds toward normal scout activity costs. This has the same effect as the first method (paying for gear, lowering the cost of scouting, etc.), but has the added incentive of rewarding scouts based upon effort. There's a grey line you have to watch with individual accounts. The money truly still belongs the unit. They are simply dividing up the pie in a ratio based upon effort/results. As long as it's treated that way, you are still above board. Now, when a scout leaves a unit, what happens to the money? Simply put, there are two legal options. One is for the unit to keep the money and return it to the general fund. The second is to transfer the money to the unit the scout is moving to. So, if a boy quits scouts all together, he has no claim on the money. Troops that have individual accounts should have a stated policy to keep claims against the money from happening. Our troop uses both approaches. Individual activities, such as popcorn sales, are filtered into individual accounts. Group activities go to the general fund and are used to reduce the cost to everyone in the group. One additional note, we also allow scouts to deposit money into their individual account. For example, if dad doesn't like writing a check for every monthly activity, he can "prepay" into his account and the activity fees are removed as appropriate. In this type of case, the money rightfully belongs to the scout and should be refunded if they leave the unit.

Barry and Ma both have good points. I have seen at lesat one scouter come out with an arrogant attitude and became worse leaders. I don't know if it can all be attibuted to Woodbadge, but I'm sure it was part of it. I believe most of us come out with a greater appreciate for scouting and some clear objectives to make improvements in our units.

Great questions. First, I think the BOR is a great place to reinforce behavior standards. If a scout has challenges in this area, I'll inform the BOR of it ahead of time. (Traditionally, I meet with the BOR before the review and give them the SM's POV on each candidate.) Just because I've signed off on Scout Spirit doesn't mean the scout doesn't have room for improvement. I look at Scout Spirit as something that improves over time. I raise the bar for each advancement. Youthful immaturity that is tolerated for a Tenderfoot should be significantly improved by the time they are going for Star (and replaced with teenage maturity.:-) ) On your second question, the BOR listens to the scouts complaints. They'll provide coaching if appropriate. For example, if it's around program matters, they may encourage him to talk to their Patrol Leader about it. If it's about how he hates the uniform, they may emphasize the purpose of that part of the program. If it's of a more serious nature, or involves adult or senior troop leadership, they'll talk to me about it. I cherish the feedback I get like this. It's the best way to drive improvements in the troop. "Feedback is a gift", I've been told. I try to use that with our PLC to make improvements whenever possible.

We handle the signatures a little different. Typically, we'll have BORs during a troop meeting night. Often we'll have more than one. This sometimes forces us to have four different committee members present if two of them each have a son up for advancement. So, the makeup of the BOR may change through the night. The boys are given a signed copy of their individual advancement record out of Troopmaster. The Advancement Chairman keeps a signed copy for his records. The advancement report is then printed out of Troopmaster after they have completed the BOR. I typically sign the line on the left (as Scoutmaster). I then get two members of the BOR to sign the sheet. If I can't get both of them, I'll get the Advancement Chair or Committee Chair to sign it. The text above the two lines clearly state: "For Boards of Review. Two additional signatures are required, plus the date the board of review was held.". To us, this means that two members of the BOR should add their signature, not that all members of the BOR have to sign it, nor that the SM should not sign the first line.

Barry gives some great advice. It's not an altogether bad idea (except for making it a mandatory part of making Life). It's a great idea to integrate into your program and get guys without the formal leadership experience to lead in some other ways. We've been trying to do this in our troop, and running into some challenges. It takes time and effort, for sure. Try submitting the idea to National as a potential requirements change. The likelihood of acceptance is probably pretty small, but you would at least get your idea in play.

funscout - i think the boy you describe is in our troop! He's been to three years of summer camp and still lives off fruit loops and golf fish. He struggles as the week goes on, but is way to stubborn to eat real food (with the exception of a few things he'll eat - like spaghetti ad hamburgers). What's interesting is that I found out his mother is the same way. So, I guess he gets it honestly.

I seldom call a scout directly, with the exception of the senior leaders (SPL & Troop Guide in particular). The others would be Eagle candidates working on their project. Since these guys have been around for a while, their parents know who I am and it doesn't come up. Nevertheless, if I call a scout and get a voice I don't recognize, I'll typically handle it like Lisabob.

I agree Ed. Some issues are severe enough to skip through the steps. Most situations don't occur that way though. It's usually a steady progression of discipline issues. I think the 3 step method allows you to head off some situations before they get serious.

What happens if you have triplets? Require three parents? No, twins can share an adult partner. Common sense prevails.

I was the one who posted the three strikes rule. I've only had to call a parent from camp once (for a "strike 2"). I did have to call a parent from a troop meeting for a "strike 3". You are correct, I gave this guy foul tip after foul tip. He provoked the youth leaders of the troop and constantly cussed them out and refused to do what he was told. I caught him at a troop meeting and tried to talk to him. He went on a rage and cussed me out, called us all stupid, etc. I decided I just couldn't take it any more. He's moved on to another troop. I hope he's getting control of his anger. I know I had run out of ideas. The call from camp was a much better result. The parents gave us some advice on dealing with him. We had some follow up meetings with them over the next year. That lad has now made Life and - while still an occasional problem - he is doing much better now.

You hit my key points. I don't have access to my notes for our annual meeting, but you've hit the high points. Medical rules vary from camp-to-camp and state-to-state. So I can't help you there. We discourage mid-week visits, but encourage them to visit family night. We too have the "no going home" rule. Our saying is "go home Friday, don't come back Monday"... a little harsh, but it gets the point across. We talk about discipline as well. We generally follow the three strikes approach. One problem, we talk to him and tell parents about it after camp - second problem, we call parents to get input/advice - third problem, parents need to come take him home. We've only had to make a phone call once, and we did not have to send him home. (Problems here refer to significant issues like fighting, arguing with leaders, destruction of property, etc..., Also, major discipline issues may cause an immediate dismissal from camp - such as pulling a knife on someone.)

(We Antelope have to be a patient bunch) I used to be an ANTELOPE, a good old ANTELOPE, too. But now I'm finished ANTELOPING I don't know what to do. I'm growing old and feable, and I can ANTELOPE no more. So, I'm going to work my ticket if I can Back to Gilwell, happy land, I'm going to work my ticket if I can. John, SR-606

Great question (and much more useful than those political discussions). Similar threads have occured in the past. I love getting great ideas here. Our biggest success was our Whitewater rafting trip on the New River in WV. The guys still talk about it nearly a year later. Whenever you do whitewater, you have to make sure you are tailoring it to the level of the scouts you have involved. We went on Class Vs, but later in season after they were a little calmer. We did not take any first year scouts and made sure all were good swimmers. For younger guys, cave camping in the winter was lots of fun. We participated in a program in Indiana. In the wintertime, the cave is still a predictable temperature, which beats risking taking the younger guys out in bad weather. When our district cancelled the camporee last year, our guys decided to put their own on, with patrols competing against each other. Lots of fun, patrol spirit and boy leadership. Simple, affordable and a great scout activity.

We've done Krispy-Kreme before as well. Nice fundraiser. We'll usually do pre-sells at the same time. But we've never been able to sell that many in a single day. More like 200 dozen. The problem here is that EVERYONE does Krispy-kremes. Soccer, Football, cheerleaders, band, every other troop and pack, etc.... someone is selling KKs every weekend, you just have to look around. Getting your timing down to not do it the same weekend as someone else is absolutely critical because the market isn't there for two groups to sell at the same time. We sold three more flags while installing the sleeves. We made 72 kits for this weekend, so I have four more on reserve if we get any last minute sales. Not a bad start at all. Now, if we can only sell 40 more before Flag Day....

We have one of those mega-troops here (last count I heard was 140 scouts). They run their own summer camp every other year. They rent one of the council's older camps for the week. They have to hire a NCS certified camp and aquatics director (or have their folks certified). They've got the adults with all the skills (medical, police, government, professionals, etc.). It seems to work for them. The thing I don't like about it is that they tend to live on their own "scouting island" and don't really build relationships with other units.

I'll disagree with the "that's too many" comment. If the adults are good - i.e. they don't want to attend every class with their son - then it's great having a good set of adults. We tend to have as much (or sometimes more) fun than the kids. We take part in the adult training sessions, adult climbing, canoeing, etc. We tend to hang around in our own "gang" and have a great time together. We model for them what a patrol should be. As the week progresses, we give them more space. A Thursday tradition for us is to cook a big meal for ourselves in the campsite and send the boys to the dining hall themselves. It's amazing how "grown up" this makes the younger ones feel.

Our troop is kicking off a flag fundraiser this weekend. Initial sales have been outstanding. In two weeks, we have sold 65 flags! And that was with generally bad weather knocking out a lot of door-to-door time. We spent last night putting together the flags and installing PVC sleeves. We'll finish that tonight. I'd say we're averaging around a 40% success rate on the door-to-door sales. I believe this will go even higher once people see the product. We partnered with a local rotary club to help get it going. Rotary members bought about 25 of the flags we sold. More would have bought, but they lived outside the area we are servicing. We're excited about the start. It's the best idea we've come up with and it should have a big impact on our ability to deliver an exciting program at an affordable price.

Ditto fscouter. The hardest thing to do is let boys make mistakes. But they will learn from them.

I think what's done is done. But, that doesn't mean this can't be an issue on the BOR's plate to consider. I would have no issue as a SM telling the BOR that I can no longer recommend this scout, given this latest revelation.

At times our camp makes it even harder by having "campsite structure" around some items. For example, Campsite #5, which may have three troops in it, is responsible for cleaning the showerhouse on Tuesday... So, to battle this, we've done a few things: - Tents are assigned according to patrols. We keep the patrols together and try to provide space between them using adults or senior troop leaders. - Patrols are assigned duties in the campsite (cleanup, flag, etc.). - Campsite inspection - patrols are given individual scores. The SPL and PLs conduct the inspection. Patrol with best inspection results for the week is given an award. - Troop campfire with patrol skits. We try to do this one night. - Campwide competitions - build teams by patrol, if possible.

I'm looking for something much more simple. I really don't care if they can tie knots, cook or know which end of the needle points north. I'd like them to have a healthy love and appreciate of the outdoors (and not be afraid of it), and a healthy friendship with their fellow Webelos Scouts that they'll carry on into the troop. If they have those things, we'll help them get the rest. This is what I see missing in the kids that struggle.

We have an Eagle project starting up with a budget of around $1000. The beneficiary (local school) is handling the money. All donations are coming into them and they are handling reimbursements.

Hey Dan, sorry for the misfire on the response. Good question. For the 2nd class requirements, 7a (safe swim defense) and 7c (rescue methods) can be done by a non-swimmer. 7b requires a very basic level of swimming, so even a terrible swimmer may be able to handle it. If not, I'd try first substituting it with a swimming-oriented requirement. Maybe he can swim the distance using a kickboard or other floatation device. If getting in the water is out of the question, you could perhaps replace it with him explaining/demonstrating (on dry land) some different strokes and their uses. For the 1st class requirements, 9a (safe trip afloat) is no problem. 9b (swimmer's test) could be handled like 7b for 2nd Class. Or, you could replace it with a physical challenge, like running a mile. For 9c (line rescue), you could again see if they could do it using a floatation device. Or, perhaps you could use a rowboat. If doing it in the water isn't an option, you could get creative about rescue techniques, such as having him demonstrate how to rescue someone from a burning building. Those are some ideas off the top of my head. I'm sure others can give you some more.