EagleInKY

In my day (late 70s), our lodge used arrows to tap you out with. A few of them would break during the ceremony. That was a special badge of honor to say they broke one over your shoulder... Yes, the "call out" ceremonies of today are not near as colorful as those of our era. And I do believe it has diminished some of the mystique of the OA.

Uh, that would be "grammar" not "grammer". I agree with your sentiment and try to use this as a place to share and receive ideas, not to beat up fellow scouters.

Funny the things you learn on this board. Because, nearly a century ago, they tried triangular manholes. Here's an interesting article. But, alas, all things must come to an end. They are phasing them out and going with the rest of the world. http://www.drainspotting.com/mirror/nhtelegraph-2003-11-26/

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/index.html

In the latest uniforms thread, Scoutingagain pointed out that there were seven methods listed on the BSA website. They are (in no particular order) Ideals, Patrols, Outdoor Program, Advancement, Personal Growth, Leadership Development & Uniform: ================================================================= AIMS AND METHODS OF THE SCOUTING PROGRAM The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each. Ideals The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and, as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes. Patrols The patrol method gives Boy Scouts an experience in group living and participating citizenship. It places responsibilityon young shoulders and teaches boys how to accept it. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in small groups where they can easily relate to each other. These small groups determine troop activities through their elected representatives. Outdoor Programs Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoor setting that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with one another. It is here that the skills and activities practiced at troop meetings come alive with purpose. Being close to nature helps Boy Scouts gain an appreciation for God's handiwork and humankind's place in it. The outdoors is the laboratory for Boy Scouts to learn ecology and practice conservation of nature's resources. Advancement Boy Scouting provides a series of surmountable obstacles and steps in overcoming them through the advancement method. The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each challenge. The Boy Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps him gain self-confidence. The steps in the advancement system help a Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others. Personal Growth As Boy Scouts plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The Good Turn concept is a major part of the personal growth method of Boy Scouting. Boys grow as they participate in community service projects and do Good Turns for others. Probably no device is so successful in developing a basis for personal growth as the daily Good Turn. The religious emblems program also is a large part of the personal growth method. Frequent personal conferences with his Scoutmaster help each Boy Scout to determine his growth toward Scouting's aims. Leadership Development The Boy Scout program encourages boys to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Boy Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership helps a boy accept the leadership role of others and guides him toward the citizenship aim of Scouting. Uniform. The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished. =================================================================== To this, acco responded "the BSA used to have as one of the methods (and I'm paraphrasing) Adult male association. This was later changed to (when Females could become Cubmasters, and Scoutmasters) Adult Association. I noticed this is not listed in on your/the BSA list. It wouldn't surprise me that things have changed but yes, that is new to me. " This news to me as well. When I get a chance, I'm going to buzz through the new fast start training to see if it addresses it. Does anyone know if this really is the case? Or is it simply a mistake on the BSA website? I think dropping one of the methods would be a big deal, and Adult Association is certainly one that I think should stay. Any thoughts?

I've had a challenge in my troop for some time. A lad who's family has been a sore-spot in my backside for some time. Their main goal is for him to earn Eagle FIRST so they can brag about it, and then have him quit and get the h*** out of our troop. They haven't been so brazen to say that to my face, but they have alluded to it to others so many times that I have absolute confidence in it being true. To do so, they've pushed and pulled every switch to try and get their boy along the path. He's working on his service project now, and I really believe he is rushing it on their account. My son and some others are frustrated by this. They know I wouldn't be as accommodating to others. In his mind, I'm letting him get away with things that I shouldn't. And, perhaps I am. Some fights just aren't worth fighting. My son - and others - have taken the high road. They've basically backed off and said that they are not going to race him to Eagle. (I think this is frustrating to the lad). He (or at least his dad) wants the others to try and beat him. I agree with E's comment: "The Lad in question here will receive a ribbon, a chunk of metal and an embroidered scrap of material. Sure he can brag that he is an Eagle Scout, but sadly deep down he has to know that it's all very hollow." Veni also made a great point - "he will, however, be in for a rude awakening when he has an employer that has higher standards than the revised BOR did." These remind me of a boy that held a grudge against me when we were scouts. Like the boy in our troop, he was determined to beat me to Eagle. Unlike my son, I actually tried to beat him, but my dad (the SM) held me back. The boy did a half-baked project that got him through the process. He got his ribbon, left the troop, barely graduagted from high school and now he's a janitor at that very same school. A paper Eagle? More or less. Is he a model we'll put on high to be proud of? No way. Did HE get out of scouting what HE could have? Not a chance. Does anyone (but him or me) remember that he got his Eagle first? Nope.

"Some people are perfectly content with just the shirt, paired with jeans or shorts. I don't feel it is my place to scold anyone about their choices." So, Ma, to borrow from acco's idea. I'm good with Trustworthy, Helpful, Friendly, Kind and Thrifty. The rest are just optional. Who are you to scold me for that? Now, don't get me wrong, I don't go around picking on other troop's uniforming. Believe me, I'd run out of time. It's a "target rich environment". But I do get real picky with my troop. I don't cut the guys slack and I expect them to wear the uniform properly. I consider it to be just as important as all of the methods and try to treat them all as must-have parts of the program.

I agree that it should be used for fees, activities and dues, not for camping gear. I'm on the fence about uniforms. Make sure you have clear policies published regarding these two points: 1) What happens to the money if the boy leaves the troop? In my opinion, he is not owed any money earned through fund-raising, unless he is moving to another troop that uses scout accounts. If so, you should be able to write a check to the new troop to deposited into his account. However, many troops just say the money goes back into the troop's general fund. Either is okay. What is not okay, legally, is to just give money gained through fundraising to the scout's themselves. 2) How do you disburse money deposited by parents? If you have one scout account, comprised of both money gained through fundraising and by parents making deposits, how do you disburse the money? Personally, I'd say make it "first in, first out". Either way will create some heartburn if the issue ever comes up. You really have no choice but to reimburse money deposited by parents, even if you choose not to disburse fundraising moneys.

Ours is pretty lax in my opinion. Field uniform is only required for campfires (Sun & Fri), Flag lowerings/dinner, vespers, OA Callout. This year, we were the only troop - again - that had scouts wearing shorts, socks & shirt. Most troops seem to consider the scout shirt with anything else as a uniform. I even saw a scout on a color guard wearing pajama pants with his uniform shirt. How sad. We try to do the flag raising on Tuesday mornings. Our entire troop wears their uniforms for that. I think it's quite impressive. If the temperature gets too bad, they go to activity uniforms. Of course, given the standard for field uniforms, that pretty much means anything goes. During the day, scouts can wear anything they want. Of course, it must be "appropriate" (i.e. no alcohol, foul language, etc.). We encourage our guys to wear troop t-shirts, previous year camp shirts, etc. They wear any shorts they want during the day. (I think MaScout got her "field" and "activity" reversed, but we get the point.)

Not sure of the distance (about a 5 hour drive from Chicago), Camp Crooked Creek (LHC in KY) has some good programs for older scouts. I'm not a fan of their first year program. Nice facilities, beautiful camp, usually decent food, and it is one of the best bargains in Summer Camps. The staff is good, and next year's camp director is excellent.

I generally don't allow pranks, but occasionally one is too easy to miss. Last year at camp our oldest scout was a pain to get up every morning. He made the troop late to breakfast a couple of times. (Getting him up in the mornings has always been an issue). The problem is he is the oldest scout in the troop and often viewed as a leader, no matter what patch is on his sleeve. The boys (and adults) had had enough last year and he wasn't getting up on Saturday. We all wanted to go home. Finally, the boys (with a little assistance), dropped the tent on him. I was shocked at his reaction. I thought he'd be mad, or act like the goof-ball that he usually does. Instead, he nearly broke down crying. I really felt bad and realized that he took the teasing way more seriously than anyone expected him to. In following up with him, I told him that 1) they only tease him because he's liked, and 2) the troop was really frustrated with him because he was constantly making them late. This was their best way of making him aware of it. The intersting thing, is that this year he was a changed (young) man. He was one of the first ones up. He participated in the venturing program at camp. He really did a great job. So, perhaps last year's "prank" gave him a little kick in the pants. Who knows... This year at camp a Scoutmaster was pulling a prank on their boys. The SM had wired up an AC outlet to a tree. He had some battery operated appliances (TV, razor, etc.) that he used while plugged in. He then would take the batteries out whenever he left the campsite. All of the camp staff and other SMs were in on it with them. When they were asked why the power didn't work, the response was "go check the breaker down by campsite 7". We'd stop by and say "hey, you're the guys that got the power this year, how much did you pay for that?".... Or, "I hear their putting in cable next year...".

our summer camp this year was generally good. Went to Camp Crooked Creek for the 4th straight year. highlights: - One ASM completed his BSA Lifeguard. - Adults modeled patrol system and had lots of fun with it. - Camp provided adult dinner on Wed and troop-provided adult dinner on Thurday helped us make it through the week. - SPL matured a lot, but still has a ways to go. - Camp made significant improvements to how it is run. The staff was smaller, but this forced them to focus on what was important. - Adults creamed the staff in the Softball game (27-10). And, for a change, the game was called due to an injury to a staff member instead of a SM this year. lowlights: - Food seemed worse this year. Camp said it was same supplier, menu and staff as last year. We're not convinced. Pitiful portions for some meals. They ran short several times. And had a few "mystery meals". - We had some challenge with our first year guys. It's an unusual group this year. They didn't all come from one source. They come in with different backgrounds and don't have the same sense of unity about them. Several are from broken homes (unusual for us) and several have special needs. We also didn't have any parents from the group attend. That's a first. Two of the boys were constantly warned about behavior. I finally had to give them the "one more time and you'll be looking for a new troop speech". It seemed to work, for now. - Two-time defenders of the adult golf tournament lost by a miraculous pitch shot from 30 yards. If it hadn't hit the stick, we'd probably won or at least had a playoff.

Pre-planning: 1) Review MBs offered at camp and put together recommendations based on age and/or rank. We strongly discourage "indoor" merit badges (Cits, Communicaitons) and encourage outdoor ones (fishing, shooting sports, nature, etc.). We encourage handicraft activities for 1st & 2nd year's, this keeps their hands occupied outside of "class time". A busy mind doesn't have time to get homesick. 2) Have guys put together a wish list of what they want to take. Then group them together into like interests. Have those groups (3-5 boys usually) put together a schedule. This forces a "group buddy" system. This is especially good for the younger ones. It's harder for 3rd, 4th and older campers, since they have more independent ideas and there are fewer of them. (Some of our older guys go alone to their sessions since they may be the only one taking COPE or other adventure offerings). 3) Review pre-reqs with guys several times before camp. We reminded them of this more this time and provided it to them in writing a couple of weeks before camp. Our completion percentage was much higher this year. 4) We always have a COH a few weeks before camp and I start it with a parent's meeting. In it I review what they need to bring to camp. I also give them tips about preventing homesickness, review how I handle discipline issues, etc. At camp, where the fun really is .... 1) Assign an adult(s) to keep an eye on the new scouts. Ideally this is your ASM for the NSP or a parent/Webelos leader that crossed over. These guys need more care & feeding than guys who have been there before. We didn't do that this year, and I regret it. 2) Promote the patrol system within your troop & campsite, since the camp usually doesn't. We group tents together by patrols, give each patrol an area for them to "hang out", encourage them to do camp gadgets, etc. We perform daily tent inspections and grade them by patrol. For the big camp inter-troop competition we have them form teams by patrols. We could put together a "super team" for our troop and score better overall, but we'd rather take a hit on our score and promote patrol spirit/unity. 3) We have our "adult santuary" where we model the patrol system. We make our own camp gadgets (this year we did a table, a driving range, a gateway and a privy - the last was a joke, not for real use). We spend a lot of time there just relaxing. It's at the back of the campsite, so we can keep an eye on things but stay out of the way. 4) This year we had a patrol that wanted to cook their own food for one dinner. They had a great time and it definitely promoted patrol spirit. 5) The camp treats all "full-week" adults to a delicious steak dinner on Wednesday night. It's awewsome. On Thursday night, our adults cook a meal in the campsite for ourselves. We invite a few staff members to join as well as some our "neighbors". The boys enjoy the idea that we trust them to go to dinner without any adult supervision. 6) We do an honor camper and honor patrol award. I've thought about others like "most improved camper", "rookie camper", etc. We haven't implemented those. The honor camper is primarily based upon something I borrowed and tweaked from another site. It's called the Scout Law Scavenger Hunt. We give each scout a sheet on Sunday. They are to write down examples of them living by the Scout Law throughout the week. They turn them in on noon Friday and we present it during family night Friday night. 7) We have family night on Friday. Parents drive down. They bring pizza and desserts. The boys love it. (And so do the adults). 8) An adult plays "banker". Scouts can turn their money in to him in an envelope with the name/amount written on the outside. When the scout needs money he gets it from him. He returns it with the amount updated. If he chooses not to give it back, it's his decision. 9) We don't let the guys run to the trading post whenever they want. We treat it as a privelege, not a right. It's usually hot & humid at camp, and if the guys live off ice cream and pixie sticks, they'll spend lots of time in the health lodge. Our guys don't seem to complain about this and they love "trading post nights". 10) This year we took one session and kept all the first scouts and Troop Guide free. They spent the time in the campsite working on early rank requirements. 11) Coffee for the adults, yes. That's a must. We also do cake/cobbler at least one night. 12) We also try to do a troop campfire around Wednesday. It didn't work out this year, but maybe next time. 13) Defintely do a service project at camp. 14) Encourage your adults to participate in activities (training, Mile swim, BSA lifeguard, COPE, etc.) 15) Every night I have a brief troop roundtable. We gather under the fly and talk about what's going on the next day. The SPL runs most of this. If there are discipline or camp issues, I'll address it openly here. (This year we had some issues with language). I try to give them some words of encouragement and advice. I ask scouts to complement each other on good things that they saw each other do. We try to end the night on a high note. This also calms them down and they usually go to bed right after. 16) Our camp offers a Quality Troop program. I give the paperwork to the SPL prior to camp and explain to him that his goal is to attain this. It's totally within his grasp, but he has to stay on top of things to do it. (It's actually a pretty good program and encourages the troop to be involved in lots of activities). On family night I always recognize the SPL with a gift and a heart word of thanks. SPL at summer camp is a challenging job. Our SPL this year said he thought he aged three years that week. I don't know if he aged three years, but he definitely matured quite a bit.

Based upon Semper-dude's recommendation, our troop used ACE Whitewater. They were awesome. It's an all-inclusive deal. They have tons of activities (mountain biking, climbing/repelling, etc.) and a lake full of inflatables and a zip line. The guys had a blast. And the dinner when you come off the river was incredible! You almost couldn't call it camping. They also have cabins and lodges for those not wanting to camp, just in case your family doesn't want to go too rugged.

Scoutldr & Fscouter - I'm in violent agreement with you guys. You've made great points. I agree that we should consider each case on its own merits. I can certainly see the possibility of a scout coming to the committee; explaining his dilemna; showing that's he's worked hard, but is up against the wall; and asking if there's a way to help. I don't like the thought of all scouts blanketely getting a handout based upon this policy.

Ed - I'm not worried that any have been stolen or sold. I think they are in people's garages, trunks or basements. Mom probably scratches her head and says "what's that stuff Johnny brought home?". They've probably stepped over or around it so many times they forgot it's there. I am concerned that some could have been lost due to negligence. For example, I've been walking through the church checking lights and locking doors and have seen tents, MB books or other items laying in a corner, under a table, etc. I hope we haven't lost any this way.

Dozy - I guess we're hijacking this thread a bit, but the short answer is that your committee needs training on how to conduct BORs. If your characterization is acurate, and we have no reason to think that it's not, then they have made a serious mistake in how the process works. FScouter's advice is spot-on.

Camp Crooked Creek offers a nice program and is a well-run camp. I've been impressed with the program improvements over the past few years. I'll be back next week to see what they've done this year. www.campcrookedcreek.com

I remember a scout who did an Eagle Project around a public building. I can't remember what it was, I believe it was some sort of memorial. He had excess funds. He ended up doing some landscaping - planted flowers, shrubs, etc. It wasn't part of the Eagle Project per se, but was icing on the cake. Nice use of excess funds.

During the review of the proposal, I questioned him pretty hard on funding. The committee did the same. He was confident that it would come in. One thing he was hoping for was a grant for about 1/2 of the funds. That did not come about, so he's in a bit of a bind. Yes, definitely between a rock and a hard place. If it were any other scout family, we wouldn't be where we are today. Actually, I should say that he wouldn't be where he is today. After all, this really boils down to it being his project. Next week we've got scout camp. He'll be away from dad for the entire week. I'm going to have a conference with him and discuss his options. He's very close to having to delay, redesign or totally restart his project plan. He will not like to hear that and could end up causing him to leave the troop. I'll certainly provide an update after camp.

CA_Scouter - That's the exact argument the SPL & Troop Guide came back at me with. I told them it was a valid point. Although, the patrol that was dealt the poor hand didn't have much of a voice in it. pargolf44067 - We have been the same way. We have three BIG stoves (camp chefs) that are big enough to feed an army. Unfortunately, they're big, bulky and use a lot of gas (kind of like a SM). We decided to get each patrol a small Coleman 2-burner stove. This is plenty for most of their meals. I think they were only around $35. On the occasion that a patrol needs extra burner space, they are free to use a burner or two on a big stove (where the adults cook). This has worked pretty well and has greatly reduced the conjestion around the kitchen area.

Good comments / questions. Neilup - "I might ask if the Scout and his family were the Troop's and the Troop leaders' strongest supporters, and were always there pitching in, would you even ask about the $1000 contribution?" I honestly believe that anyone else would have easily raised the $1000 long ago. These folks are so disliked, they're going to have a tough time getting anything. (It's not just in scouts they're disliked, it's the same way with the football league, soccer league, school PTA, church, etc.). To add to the problem, he (the scout) has always refused to participate in fund raising. So, now he's getting money from fund raising that he didn't help bring in. How hypocritical is that? "one element of Eagle Scout project planning is being realistic about funds and about raising funds. If the Scout can't get the funds, then he should think about a different project." I agree. I gave the scout advice that this project was probably more than he should try and pull off. The committee expressed the same concern. He didn't listen (he only listens to his dad). His dad is who is really driving this. We can't prove it, but we all know it. We know that his dad wants him to be our "first Eagle" as something to brag about. He's made comments that give me reason to think his primary goal is to have his son "beat" my son to Eagle. The funny part is that my son is refusing to participate in the game. He's not going to start planning about his project until next year. ----------------------------------- I called the CC last night to talk about this. I first asked him what initiated the conversation. He said that he had spoken to the boy on Saturday after our COH and he said that they were way behind on money and that the project had gotten more expensive. It seems he's decided to add more to it and the cost has doubled! (This is a classic example of his dad's work). The CC decided to pose the question and see what the committee's reaction was. I expressed my concerns (which reflect the views of those here). My primary concern was that this wasn't initiated by the boy, so he's not demonstrated any leadership around it. I'm also concerned that he has not followed my advice regarding raising money and managing scope. And, I'm pretty sure he's not following my caution(warning) not to let his dad run the project. I'm also concerned about the precedent set. If every scout comes for $200, it could get quite expensive. Now, we are a mostly middle-class/upper-middle class group, so I don't think we'll bankrupt ourselves, but it could get costly. The CC didn't think that would be an issue. I told him that (1) he should have given me a heads up so I could get some thoughts together and (2) he should have asked the mom to leave the room so people would be comfortable discussing it on it's merit, not afraid to comment because of her being in the room. He agreed to have some "offline" discussions with a few folks to see if my concerns are reflective of the group. While we will probably not take back the committment made this week, we should probably revisit it as a policy going forward.

National is really cracking down on camps and requiring all meds to be held by a medical officer. On troop campouts, it's up to the troop to decide. We have chosen not to handle the scout's medication. However, for those that have medications that they cannot miss, we have an adult that reminds them to take it.

Yellow Hammer nailed some really good advice there. I'm not as experienced with coastal Georgia, but I am with SC and the Tennessee area (and Kentucky, of course). The coke conversation really is true, and drives non-southerners crazy. Expect to hear "Yer not from 'round here, er ya?" Allowing someone to merge in traffic is normal down here. When they wave back, they are thanking you by using their whole hand, not just one finger. If while driving someone waves at you (from the side of a road or an approaching vehicle), they don't know you, they're just being friendly. Wave back. A common technique we use is simply raising one or two fingers off the steering wheel to say "hi". You "gas up" a car, "carry me" to dinner, and yes, grits are normal breakfast food. Finally, remember to save your Dixie Cups, the south will rise again!

Dan, This is a great post about the patrol method. As it is one of the big topics for us this year, I'm going to use this in my next scoutmaster's meeting. Thanks for the thoughts. As for the small group doing the cooking, I just ran into this with our troop. For our last campout the PLC decided that one patrol would not have enough to cook, so they could just share with the other patrols. I was quite upset with them. I explained to them how this defeats the goals of the patrol system, which we were trying to strengthen, not weaken. Among my concerns were: - The "small" patrol did not have any voice in the meal selection. - The other two patrols did not factor for extra people in their portions, so some meals were a little skimpy. - Their patrol was dependent upon the other patrols schedules. My suggestion to them was to look for a more creative way, if their concern was the patrol numbers. (I think the patrol only had 3 boys). For example, the patrol could offer to feed the SPL and ASPL for the campout. They could invite an adult to eat with them. They could come up with things that are easy to cook in small amounts or even individually (foil wrap dinner, omelettes in a bag, etc.). There are lots of answers that are better than dismantling the patrol system.