EagleInKY

Hey FOG, I know that Mom. She's in our troop, too. Actually, our case is a little different. The boy is a first year scout, but if he makes it to Life, I can see her doing the same thing. This year at Summer Camp, this boy almost got sent home. Several issues (too much to go into here) arose. I called mom a couple of times during the week, and came within a whisker of sending him home. On parent's night, she comes up there. What does she do? She lets him go play with his brother while she packs his things to go home the next morning. I don't know about you, but if I had been that boy, and my parents had received the phone calls she received, I wouldn't be sitting for a while. BTW, we're meeting with mom & dad to talk about this (again). It just doesn't seem to get through.

Hate to re-open an old thread, but here goes an additional question. How do you all handle partial MBs from Summer Camp after a significant amount of time has passed. When our boys receive their partial MBs from Summer Camp, we provide them with the option of using one of the troop's counselors for the completion of the MB. Typically, the counselors are a SM or a Committee Member. Of course, the boy has the option of finding his own counselor as well. But they generally use the ones that we have available in the troop. It is my understanding that there is no "expiration" of a partial MB. But I also know that several troops around us do not allow a partial to carry out over 1 year. Recently, I heard of a troop that only allows Summer Camp MBs to be carried for 6 months. While I don't like creating a lot of arbitrary rules, I can picture the 17 yr old Eagle Scout who is one MB short of his next palm. He finds a partial MB card for Mammal Study from 1996 and decides he can quickly finish it to get his palm. My question is, does the troop have a right to set a deadline for completion of a partial MB? And, if so, what amount of time are most troops using?

Our council used to have guidelines, but I can't find them anymore. They were the stipulations to have your unit website linked from the Coucil's. I noticed that they don't do this anymore, so I can only assume it became too much of a burden to police them. To the best of my recollection, the main rules were: - Only first names of Scouts - No phone numbers (even leaders, if I remember correctly) - Parent should sign a permission slip for the release of their child's picture (we do this each year with all of our youth)

I've had the same issues. When correcting one Scout, I said "we don't talk like that". He came back, "Well, we do at my house". I simply told him back, "Well, you are in the troop's house, now, and we don't talk that way". We talk about how it's not "Scoutlike" and how it does not follow the Scout Law. I think it's sinking in, at least with some of them. The problem is that they hear it at home, school and TV all too frequently.

Paul - While I'm not standing in support of "Eagle Mill" troops, I don't think you can be as bold as saying the Scout hasn't earned the rank. To my knowledge, there is nothing in the requirement that says a scout has to do the legwork to set things up with his MB counselor. Presumably, a Scout could only work on Merit Badges at Summer Camp. Over a period of a 3-4 years, he could complete the requirements for Eagle Merit Badges without ever arranging for a MB Counselor or earning a MB in a troop meeting. While it certainly fair to ask the question "is the Scout getting the full value of the program?", I do not believe you can say that he did not earn the Merit Badges, or the respective ranks.

BTW - I haven't seen this in the GS either. Most of the GS programs I have seen are heavily adult run. I've even had GS leaders tell me how they wish that their programs were more like the Boy Scouts in regards to the Aims and Methods.

I've seen both extremes on Den Chiefs. We had an incredibly talented young man as a Den Chief. He was about 14 yrs old and almost to Life Scout. Looking back, we under-utilized him. I didn't realize how talented he was until later. We (the adult leaders) did a disservice to him and to the boys. It's my own fault. But, Webelos Leaders have to be taught how to use boy leaders. I think that is the crux of the matter, and exactly the point you are trying to make. The question then, is how do we get Webelos Leaders to learn, accept and implement some form of boy leadership, in order for the transition to Boy Scouting to work smoother. Anyone have an answer for that? -John

Acco - I agree wholeheartedly. As someone trying to build a new troop, we've found the boy-led model very challenging. While the adult leaders are confortable with it, the parents and some of the boys really seem to struggle with the concept. I am trying to get with Webelos leaders early, preferably in the first year, to get them working on ways to move in this direction. I believe one of the good ways of doing it is through a well-run Den Chief program. If a Den Chief is used effectively, he can do much of the leadership in the den, and help get the boys used to following other boys. Also, if he's comfortable with the boy-led model (as he should be), he can help the boys understand and implement it as well. ------------------ Quick story about our boys when they were Webelos - We were at Roundup last September ('02), our boys were starting their 2nd year of Webelos. Three of them were there to assist with the Roundup (handing out papers & pencils, showing parents where to go, etc.). Before the roundup started, the DE and the Pack Leaders were all over in the corner of the gym getting their agenda finalized. About 25 kids (mostly 1st & 2nd graders) were running all over the place. Suddenly, we realized that they were quiet. We looked around, and saw that our three Webelos had gotten them to all sit over in the corner of the gym, and were playing a quiet game with them. It absolutely floored me, and nearly brought me to tears. I realized then that these boys can and will lead, we just have to get out of their way.

Stepping lightly into the fray... I'm not going to get into the middle of the argument here. I'll just give my opinion and jump out of the way. I was disappointed when I returned to Boy Scouts to find the boy-led BORs were gone. That is because I had positive experiences with it in my troop. The SPL and 2 or 3 other senior boys would do BORs for all advancement up through First Class. Star and Life were conducted by adults. The Eagle Board, of course, was run by the district. The reason I liked the boy-led BORs were two-fold. First, the young newbie Scout was not as intimidated to go in front of the boys (but I do see it in the Tenderfoot Boards today). Second, the senior boy leaders of the troop got to demonstrate great leadership and maturity in conducting the BORs. My understanding is that they were done away with because of many examples of abuse. I'm sure this is the case. Unfortunately, many good ideas have been shot down by people who abuse them. I believe it is said that "self government doesn't work without self-discipline". I wish there had been a happy medium to this. Perhaps an adult sitting on the boy-led BOR would have been a work-able compromise. Until then, I'll stick to the rules. Committee-ran BORs is what we do and will continue to do.

I'm in. Sign my name.

DS - I have met a few remarkable young men who earned Eagle around 13-14. My own brother earned it at 14. You certainly sound like one of those people. My post was speaking about generalities, and generalities generally get you in trouble on a board like this. As I stated, there are a handful of undeserving Eagles "at various ages". Even 1 day short of 18, a Scout can be undeserving of his rank. I hope all Troops can adopt a program as close to the "true model" as possible. I would not like to see us fall back into some of the failed methods of the 70s and 80s that many of us lived through. On the topic of the troop affecting the time it takes to earn Eagle, our troop does do one thing that deals with this issue. We don't allow the boys to take several of the Eagle MBs at Scout Camp. We do not feel that the Citizenships or a few others are taught and tested at the level which should be required for these important MBs. We offer these annually through counselors approved by the troop committee. This almost guarantees that a boy won't earn Eagle at 13. But, the reason we do it is not as much about the age of the Eagle, but in making sure the Scouts are taught and tested at a quality level with these critical MBs.

Richmond - Reigns, reins, rains... whatever. No, not an English major. And until they have spelling & grammar checkers on this board, I'm not going to worry too much about it.

LHC - Dan Boone District. Although I did work camp staff at Camp McKee in 82-84. We did institute 2 patrols (we have 9 boys) right away. They elected PLs and we appointed troop positions. We've struggled along the way. Without older Jr. Leaders to model, we've had to try and teach them to lead along the way. Occasionally we've taken our hands of the reigns, and of course, they usually end up in the ditch! But, they learn more every time. The changes we are making in January will help reinforce the boy-led concepts. We're holding elections after JLT and will move forward with a new slate of leaders. I'm excited about the next phase. We hope to elect an SPL next summer. We all agreed that we needed more time to get ready for that. I also expect the dynamics of 6 or more new Webelos joining in March will change things a little. As for the benefactor, it's amazing what you can get when you just ask.

I don't know if it's possible to come down on both sides of an issue, but here goes. Sturgen - I understand where you come from and share some of the same sentiments. I think those of us who had to work through tougher challenges and earn our Eagle at an older age (I had just turned 17), probably got more out of it than those who sped through the program. It reminds me of a disagreement I had with a graduating Webelos parent a couple of years ago. They chose a troop that would let their boy earn his Eagle as soon as possible because their boy was "more mature" and "much smarter" than the average boy! If you had known this boy you would have died, they were so blind to what he was like to the rest of the world. They also pointed out that he would probably drop out due to peer-pressure after earning Eagle. I figured if anyone was pre-destined to be a 13 year old Eagle dropout, this kid would be it. I hear that he is nearing (if not already earned) Life rank. I'm sure mom and dad are doing a great deal of the work for him. With all that said, I don't want to see the requirements changed. I just wish troops would follow the program as it is designed. Yes, there will be a handful of undeserving Eagles - at various ages. But for the most of us, the journey was a challenge and we are better for it.

Hello to you in Richmond! My old stomping grounds - I'm an EKU alum (class of 86). I, too, am SM of a new charter troop, so my wishes are similar to yours. Although we've gotten the dining canopy and am starting to trailer shop (thanks to some nice benefactors). Our big goal for next year is transitioning more to a boy-led troop. We're not there, but taking it one step at a time. We're holding JLT over Christmas break, and instituting formal PLC & Patrol meetings starting in January. Wish us luck!

Thanks to everyone for giving great feedback on this subject! I've taken it all in and am working with our Committee Chairman on our particular problem. Mark, Mike, KS - all great suggestions. we're going to implement something along the lines of your thoughts. Sturgen - While I agree that the boys are the ones who know the most about how they act in their everyday life, I'm not sure if I'm ready to turn it over to them in the same manner. I probably have the same reservations as Bob. What I currently do, however, is get input from the PLC about boys that are having "issues". It usually comes out there. I've also found that Scouts will allude to issues in the patrol during my SCs with them. When I probe deeper, they'll usually tell what their concerns are. So, what is this Scouter doing next? I'm getting a meeting set up with the Committee Chair and hopefully the COR to meet first with the parents, and then with the boy. I'm telling them that we're holding him back on this until we see some improvement. We've got plenty of documentation on where he's falling short. I'm sure it's going to be a painful, but necessary process. Wish me luck! Thanks again to everyone for the input.

Nut - I did the same as you this past year, restarted a troop with a bunch of Webelos! I'm looking forward to being in your shoes!! The Eagle Court of Honor Book at www.scoutingbooks.com is a good resource.

I've never seen a canned ceremony for this. Most kids who have moved away have done so during the summer, so we normally don't get the chance to do anything. However, last year we had a Webelos that was moving to France. I gathered up a bunch of extra patches from events over the years and a few council strips. I gave them to him as a memory of what we did in KY, and to be used to trade with his new Scouting friends he would meet in France.

Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class all have a requirement that reads "Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life." This is a great requirement, but one that we struggle with how to measure. I'm interested in getting feedback from this illustrious forum. A few weeks back, I had a scout that is getting close to Second Class approach me with a question. He pointed to requirement #9. He said, "I've already done that, do I have to do it again?". I explained that we are always expected to live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law. And that even I, many years after being a Boy Scout, need to hold myself to that very same standard. He acted disgusted and disappointed. He huffed and puffed and walked away. Now, you probably won't be surprised to hear that this Scout is one of our biggest "challenges". I do not believe he lives by the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life. While I have seen improvement over time, he still doesn't get it. My question is whether this requirement is enforceable as something to hold a boy back on? The Scout Handbook says that only the scout can judge whether he is living by these principles. Obviously, this Scout would say that he is. I'm curious as to your thoughts. I hope it spurs some interesting discussion.

I'm going to turn the discussion back to Eamonn's original question. I am on the fence when it comes to troop rules. We have them, but I see the pros and cons of each approach. Let me share why. I'll explain using two troops in our area. Troop A - The Mega-Troop. This troop has all the resources, volunteers and space money can buy. They have an incredible program, and turn out an impressive number of Eagles. But, it is hard to say that it is boy-run. It appears that the boys are just going through the steps of a clearly laid out plan. If a boy sticks with their program, he will likely make to Eagle following the prescribed schedule. The problem with Troop A is that it takes much of the leadership away from the boys. I believe the creativity required in developing and leading their own program is one of the most valueable aspects of the program. Troop A, of course, is a troop that has an impressive set of rules and procedures to document everything that happens in the troop. Troop B - the boy-led to the extreme troop. In this troop the boys make all of the decisions. The adults are only there to make sure that the boys don't kill each other (and of course, transportation) When a boy does something wrong, the normal excuse is "boys will be boys". For example, when we took our Webelos to visit a troop meeting, a 13-yr old was picking on one of the Webelos. The troop leaders were letting it happen. Eventually, I stepped in, to prevent it from going over the edge. Another situation I know of involved a Webelos who crossed over into the troop. This Scout is a little "different". He has some learning disabilities, and spent much of his life in foster homes. The Boy Scouts took a vote, and decided they did not want this boy in their troop. When the SM was asked, he backed up his boys, saying it was a boy-led troop, so it was up to them. Obviously, Troop B had no sort of manual whatsoever. My point is that there is a happy-medium in everything we do. Manuals are useful in defining what acceptible behavior is. We'd love to just live by the Scout Oath & Law, but it's not that easy. For example, "A Scout is Friendly" would preclude a Scout from getting in a fight. So, what happens when one of your boys gets in a fight? Is he kicked out because he violated a point in the Scout Law? Or, do you have rules that state what is expected of your boys and your parents? We use our handbook as an introduction to the troop. We meet with parents during the Webelos open house (or in a SM conference for those coming in at a different time). At this time we walk through the handbook. After that, it's seldom referenced again. It serves as a useful tool to set expectations with the parents. After that, it's more about good judgement and trying to live by the Scout Oath and Law.

FOG - If our mom's acted the way you described, I wouldn't want them around either. The ones that come on our campouts are not that way at all. In fact, we tell them and the boys that they are our guests. The moms love having their meals cooked for them! And, for the most part, the boys enjoy doing it (although most would deny it). The only agreement I'll give you is that they do tend to discipline a little more. But frankly, the adult leaders who are normally on the campouts enjoy the break from that task. I like it because it gives them a greater appreciation of what the adult leaders deal with all the time. They then have a better understanding of the methods that we use and why we do the things we do.

FOG - Regarding the "We are trying to get all the boys to FC by May" comment. That is an astute observation and a fair critique. You have to forgive me, I've been back in Boy Scouts for a year after a five year hiatus in Cub Scouting. I still sometimes call patrols "dens" from time to time. So, you are correct that the way I worded it sounded more like a den leader. So, let me try to redeem myself. What I should have said is that we have put together a program - with the boy's involvement - that affords the boys the opportunity to reach FC by May. That is, if the boys are involved, attend most meetings and campouts, and make the individual effort, then they should have no problem making that target. I believe OGE said it best back in his first post on the subject - "First Class First Year means the Troop is committed to providing a program so that the opportunity for a scout to advance to First class in a year is possible, not a certainty. ". That is what we are trying to do.

First of all, I would love it if more of our moms would come on a campout. They are a great influence when they come. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often. I do know of several troops in the area that have very active scout moms who always camp with them. I think the bigger challenge is with siblings. We don't let siblings come on most campouts. However, we are trying to do one campout a year where siblings are appropriate. This past summer we went to a National Park where we took a cave tour and a boat tour. We invited families to come. We had a few takers, and they had a great time. One important rule - we require siblings to follow the same rules as the boys. So, if you don't allow Gameboys and Walkmans, then you can't let the siblings have them either. That was a hot issue for some of our siblings (my daughter in particular). But I stand firm on that.

As with others, I'd have to know more to give a good answer. But, I'll give it a try anyway ;-) I had a parent that did some of this. Nothing major, just questioning decisions, talking behind the SM & ASM backs. This person is a negative person who always looks for the bad in every situation. I tackled it from multiple directions. One, if I heard him complaining, I asked for clarification. He usually would back down. Two, I made sure that he had some responsibility, and held him accountable for it. This occupied a lot of his time, and left him with lest time to complain. Finally, I made sure that I was delegating as much responsibility that I could to the committee members or to the PLC. Then, if he complained about a piece of equipment that was bought, it was the Equipment Chairman, not me he was questioning. When it was something with advancment, it was the advancment chairman, not me. Eventually, he runs out of people to complain to.

Regarding your Chief Cook question - We were faced with the same concern. We decided that it was best to let him be chief cook for three straight meals, preferably during the same campout. The reason is that it gives him repetition over a short duration and gives him opportunity to cook different types of meals. We rotate the rest of the patrol in as assistant cooks and other duties. We consider the head cook as a "hands on" job. Head cook doesn't mean "boss", but is the person who has to make sure the meal comes together. It's actually the head cook who is the one that normally complains, but it's a good lesson in life. He probably takes for granted his mom cooking three meals a day for him!!!