Eagledad

The program has become quite complicated. Another proposal I would personally suggest from my experiences in scouting is stop the den group crossovers and start sending boys to the troops by age or completion of Webelos rank requirements. This would end the need for NSPs and Troop Guides. Crossovers by dens became a tradition when National concluded that NSPs would help first year scout membership dropouts because the scouts are joining with their friends and feel more confident in the group. NSPs and Troop Guides add a heavy burden on the boy run structure that is both difficult to manage in a patrol method program, and shifts leadership management of new scouts from the patrol level to the troop level. More often than not, the added effort is taken over by the adults. I was told that the first year scout drop out rate was the same after 20 of implementing the NSP. So, what is the point? By bringing new scouts in smaller numbers, they will be given to patrols where the patrol members managed the new scouts at the patrol level. I don't have numbers, but I'm guessing it would reduce troop workload a minimum of 25% at both the youth and adult levels. Of course the patrols would have to relearn how to be more active in new scout growth, but that responsibility is positive behavior growth for all the scouts in the patrol. There are many other benefits, but I'm sure this suggestion will not be received with much applause. Barry

OK, we found that at least 40% of total pack adult effort is directed to making their Tiger program successful. My polling, and national membership numbers, concluded that Webelos crossing over into the troop program is directly related to adult burnout. Barry

I'm not sure how you conclude that observation. Since units are where all the action is, they are by default where program performance is measured. Whether the results represent local or national application of program depends on what the local performance is measure against. Membership numbers are one indicator of program performance. If our district was the only district in the nation where less than 50% of Webelos crossover into the troops, I would look at how our district is failing to provide the units a program at least to the level of national's average. But since our district numbers are representative of national's numbers, I've would conclude it is not local. Now I guess one could suggest that Nationals numbers are a success and our district is providing a successful unit programs. But then there is that bothersome national membership decline. Barry

My observation is that success of multiple units in a single CO is directly related to the goals, leadership and direction of the CO. 90% of the COs around here are happy to provide support and space for the scout program, but not leadership or direction. The Catholic COs are the best for providing direction. Ironically direction with a spiritual influence upsets some of the more progressive adults. It's the times I suppose. But, without a mission to find agreeable leaders, success of all the units in a single CO is more about luck than the natural momentum from the structure. I imagine a good Unit Commissioner could accomplish developing successful units in one CO, but finding a UC capable is not only hard to find, it would be temporary. Barry

I felt nothing but kindness in these post. Gwaihir highlighted a lot of what I've been saying, really for years. I guess I'm known as the anti girls member here. If so, than it's because either folks haven't read my posts thoroughly, or I wasn't clear. But I was also the anti gay scout member here, the anti gay leader member, and the anti transsexual member here. But, I'm quite confident that my opinions weren't based on bigotry. Not always, but most of my post were delivered in rationalism, not emotion. Many folks struggled with my posts because they read them with emotion. I'm talking about program quality for all those issues. National in my view has been, for a very long time, out of touch with scouting at the unit level. Even worse I feel National has lost sight of the BSA Mission and Vision. How can passion be nurtured, if one hasn't ever spent the time to watch the process produce fruit? Bringing in a Girls is just another mis-action toward breaking down a program that has only survived this long by it's reputation of changing boys into men of nobility. I say nobility because what scouts take away from this program is more than just ethical character. Its an attitude of selflessness. I don't think the BSA can hold out by reputation any longer. Just the word Girl changes everything about the Boy Scouts Association. That National has stated the decision has a lot to do with raising numbers to save the program just highlights their shallow approach to management. Isn't that like sending more buckets to the Titantic for bailing water faster? If girls could enhance, or just even maintain the "present" quality or boys in the program, I would support it. I believe girls are a benefit at the Venturing Crew ages of scouting. But I have been working with youth and parents long enough to know that adding more complex elements of individualism to an already challenging program intended to shape behavior requires a discipline that National has never shown us to have. I'm confident that National's goals are self-serving. That never goes well in a volunteer organization because volunteers aren't paid enough endure the stress of following the directions of which they don't agree. Motivation of followers is only as good as the inspiration of the leaders. As for what I have to offer, Patrol Method, while the concept is simple in it's application, requires patience and trust to be fruitful. It's not their fault, but I see less of those attributes in todays scouters. You can see it in some of the discussions, patrols is more of a name of how to divide the kids than the method for developing independent decision makers. Patrol Method is quickly becoming an out dated philosophy. Barry

I've told the story of talking to our Webelos just minutes before our Pack crossover ceremony. We have 21 troops in our district, I asked them why this one. They said it had the best game at the troop meeting. None of those scouts were in that troop a year later. There is no easy answer because of a million variables make up a troop program. And no two troops are a like. I developed the reputation as the Boy Run guru in our district. Our troop was the extreme end of a boy run program. And we grew faster than any troop in the area. I was arrogant in believing that every troop should be like ours. But when I started giving my time at the District and council level, I met and worked wonderful scouts who came from programs that were at the opposite end of the boy run spectrum and in between. I grew into a better person as these scouts taught me new ideas in building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I felt small from the weight of my arrogance. I was embarrassed for being so brash. Humility truly is the great teacher. All of that to say that picking the right troop should be a team effort with the Webelos leader, parents and scouts. For most scouts, the whole family is joining the program. Because of my experience, I'm pretty good at predicting the benefits of different troop programs. But I learned in my humility that scouts from even the most adult run program come away better than when they joined. If they are having fun, they will likely stay. If they can stay a few years, they will grow. My general advice to families looking for a troop is talk to the SPL and older scouts. Ask them to brag about their troop. You will be surprised at their candid opinions. Ask for a story or two about their most memorable experiences. Ask the SPL to give you a tour. Ask the SM the simple question of what the goal is for your son. Follow the answer with a "how" if it is appropriate. You will likely learn what you need to know from that kind of visit. Barry

We aren’t just mourning the loss of a noble youth program originally intended to make boys into moral and ethical decision makers for the rest of their adult life, some of us are mourning our passion that seems to have no where to go. We have a lot of experience to hand down that doesn’t seem to apply much to the future BSA. Barry

Good stuff. Our Scouts started the tradition where the Color Guard shouted something short when they we commanded to "Present Colors". The yell was generally made up just before the meeting. Usually something like "LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET OUT OF THE WAY", "PANTHERS NEVER REST", or something along those line. Not a big deal in the meetings, but pretty impressive when the troop performs the opening and closing at summer camps. I've struggled over the years with adults and the scout sign. I have seen so many adults over use it to control the scouts when they are just being normal for their age. I have often seen adults punish behavior by holding the sign up well past controlling to the point of a form of abuse. I once saw that happen at an OA meeting. I'll bet that adult (at an OA meeting!) stood for at least two minutes holding up the sign and staring down every scout the room. I was ashamed to be an adult. I taught our scouts, and Scouters at adult training, and NYLT participants that the Hand Sign represents the Oath and Law. The Oath and Law are Servant Actions, not dictatorial directives. Or in one word, it says "Respect". It's a way of respecting the moment, whatever that moment is. It's mostly used to respect the group by paying attention. But it could be used to another of showing respect and for performance. We created a policy in our troop that adults are forbidden to raise the Scout Sign first in the presence of scouts. If they an adult presenter feels the need for more respect while trying to talk to the scouts, they walk over and request the group youth leader to get control. Or they can just wait. Often I would just wait for the leader to realize I needed a little more respect or quiet. The rule accomplishes a lot of things as well like adults never taking a leadership role over the scouts and the practice of patience with scouts. But it also forces overzealious adults from interfering with the boys program just because they are personally annoyed by level of disruption. Thanks for the explanation, I can't wait for you to become a troop leader. So much to experience, so much to share. Barry

I find these actions interesting. Your posts are usually well thought out and purposeful. Gifts I wish I had. I'm curious to what you are trying to teach your scouts with applying the scouts sign after the shout? My observation over the years is that the Scout Sign is misunderstood and over used, but I don't get that feeling here. Barry

I didn't mean anything by the question, I'm finding my kids using a lot of words differently. And, while I have very little respect for how National manages BSA, our experience with the GSUSA was worse. I imagine their professionals just haven't caught up with modernizing their documentation. I could be wrong, my wife reminds me often that I'm not reading her mind as she would like. Barry

Intolerant and prejudice. I didn't take the GSUSA's question as prejudicial, I took it as ignorant of males active in their program. I would not have been surprised if the BSA did the same thing before women were invited as troop leaders. Barry

I'm curious of your age. I'm old and would not use bigoted in this manner. Is this how younger people define bigot today? Barry

It's not so much they resist it, I think they just don't believe the pay back of letting the scouts learn from their mistakes outweighs advancement and faux leadership. In their minds they believe a scout "might" develop some character, but in their advancement directed program, they will definitely leave with rank and leadership experience. Even if that experience is really just filling a space. I had several mothers who would shake their head yes as I explained how our patrol method program worked, and then question every move we made. It takes about a year for them to see what we are talking about. And then they turn into our biggest program cheerleaders. I have so many stories of converting moms. One hard conversion mom was so passionate about our program, she became a CC to make sure nobody, like her before the conversion, interrupted our program. And, once an adult starts in a specific direction, it's hard to switch to another trail. Still, there is hope. I once taught a boy run/patrol method course. One adult frustrated with my "let the boys learn" tone stood up and basically said I was full of crap. He challenged me to how he could direct his troop toward a more boy run program. I suggested letting the scouts do a five mile hike without adults. He did not like that idea at all. I told him my method of getting over adult fears is to train the scouts so that I felt comfortable letting them do the activity. He sat down and I didn't see him again until two years later at a Wood Badge course where he ran up to me and praised my suggestion for letting he scouts hike five miles without adults. He was a converted scouter. We adults are proud and stubborn. We need a lot of motivation to admit we are wrong. Barry

Some of us here think it is in the training. I also believe adults who haven't seen it work as a youth struggle to trust the program will work to the level we say it can. Adults just don't believe a 16 year old can manage a troop, so they only give them a short leash to try. I find that adults who never had the scouting experience tend to vision a troop of advancement, while adults who had a youth experience tend to have a vision of camping. Even though both adults may have the same goal of building character, the two differences describe the philosophical approaches toward their program design. A new scoutmaster once called me to ask what else their six month old troop of scouts could do on camp outs besides advancement classes. I suggested a couple hours of free time. His immediate response was, "you mean let the scouts do whatever they want?". I think that highlights the challenge for Scoutmasters who never experienced scouting as a youth. What is fun, and what is safe? We adults are insecure and require feedback to know if we are going in the right direction. Scouts don't care if the activities are building character, they just want to have fun. For me, feed back was how much independence scouts were willing to take responsibility for in planning and running a FUN program. I knew what was fun from my youth experiences. New scouters who know basically nothing about a troop program go to what is easy to measure, rank and awards. They aren't being negligent, actually they are trying to be responsible in building character building program. They just can't see how setting up a tent in the dark builds character. It really doesn't even make sense. But advancement is easy, and quickly measurable. Add that the BSA isn't helping with guidelines and quotes to suggest first class in the first year is considered a successful program. Training could help a lot. Mentoring would go along ways as well. Barry

Yes, and I understand that generalities often make a lot of sense and sound good. But they don't tell the whole story. What also needs to be added is that creating and maintaining a troop program that challenges all scouts at all ages is a lot of work. Adults have to be on their toes making sure they learn more than the scouts so that they don't find themselves getting in the scouts way. I made a lot more bad decisions than good on my road to learning how to be a good scout leader. Humility is a requirement for adults building a quality program. It's a lot of work, but the results make it worth the effort. Barry

For me personally, one thing more annoying than a distracted person distracting the event is the guy up front stopping the flow of the event to enforce rules he's just making up in the moment. The behavior is rude to many of us, but not others. A lot young people find this behavior acceptable. Some general guidelines should have been given at the beginning of the ceremony. I taught the scouts to either handle these things personally and quietly without distracting the rest of the group, or endure it and learn a lesson for the next time. Now that's just my personal pet peeve. I understand it's not everyone's style. Barry

The troop program is long enough that normal males go through several mental and physical changes during that duration. As a scout gets older, he gets wiser and more mature. His interest change as well as his dreams and goals. And scouts of the troop age enjoy the experience the most when they are challenged, both physically and mentally. The average age of Scouts leaving the troop indicates where the activities stop challenging the scouts. I used to teach leaders that bored scouts are a red flag that the program has reached its maximum potential for scout growth and they needed to change. I have said many times the measure of a troop program is the older scout program, not the younger scout program. Webelos leaders visiting future troops should watch and learn about the older scout program. If scouts are Eagling and leaving at age 14, I would move on. You pointed out that you didn't enjoy teaching skills. I assuming you meant standing in front a group basically lecturing the lesson. Most boys don't enjoy that style of teaching either. A lot of folks are surprised to find out that the program is designed for scouts to learn by actions and observations through activities. Not sitting thru classes. A class may be required now and then, but the rule should be for the scouts to learn from participating in patrol and troop activities. As long as the program keeps the body and mind busy, the scouts will stay because scouting makes them feel good about themselves. Barry

Hmm, I'm not smart enough to make up theories, I'm only speaking from experience. I can justify my suggestions with real experience antidotes. May I suggest you do the same before considering programs from other countries. Barry

Too long for whom? If the scouts are running the troop, adult burnout doesn't have much effect on the program. If the scouts are wanting to leave by age 14, then they aren't running the troop. Barry

I wasn't focusing so much on applications of the program in this discussion. Someone else started a thread on fun pack meetings, so I won't go there. My main disappointment with the Cub program is the weight of responsibility National has pushed on the adults for five years. Experts say the average volunteer for any volunteer organization will give about two years of their service before loosing interest. This of course doesn't include the rare volunteer with the passion to give a lot more, which is most of us on the forum. Anyway, the Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. See the problem? Most volunteers are burned out after two years, so their motivation and enthusiasm has dropped. They are ready to stand back and watch for a while. The best solution for keeping the program fun is to replace the burned out volunteer with a fresh volunteer. But there aren't enough parent resources to recruit fresh volunteers. Parents willing to be volunteers likely already did it. The result in about 50% (or more) cases is a boring program for the boys. And what the boys experience now is what they expect for the future. Which is why the crossover rate of Webelos joining Troops is around 50%. SO! What does National do! Add another year (lions) to the program of course. Another hole in the hull. Ah, but there is a fix to this hole. Tap into a new resource (girls), that fixes the problem. Barry

Cubs and Troops are two completely different programs, so the discussion has gone divergent from my points. The Cubs who resented the program because their parents would not let them quit typically didn't crossover into the troop program. Most of the parents, like Hawken, wanted their sons to learn the lesson of committing even when they lost interest. But the percentage of Boy Scouts who resented the program as a result of their parents were far fewer than the Webelos who quit at crossover. And, as was said, resentment of a program is typically the result of a boring program, not the unrelenting parents. The parents get blame, but the program is the cause. Barry

Interesting comments. One of my traits of reasoning is I tend to look at the bigger pictures. What I see is that scouting did it to itself from a lot of bad decisions. I often wonder how today's parents would view the BSA if National had not made any major program changes since 1957? Over the years, since the 1960s anyways, sudden membership declines can be tracked following national level program changes. Not all membership declines were sudden. I believe some declines were the result of changes (Tigers/NSPs) that took a little longer to show a performance degradation of the overall program. When I look at the program differences between my youth experiences of the 60s and 70s compared to starting back as a scout leader in 1990, I can't think of a single change to the program over those years that was an improvement for my sons. When I watched and experienced the changes from 1990 through about 2010, I felt National was purposely trying to drive adult leaders to quit. The changes over those years increased the work load on the cub leaders and gradually turned troop leaders into baby sitters. I remember after seeing the changes to the Tiger program in 2000, several of us in the District Membership Committee predicted that troop membership would drop measurably in 2005. And it did. We weren't clairvoyant, we just reasoned that the membership drop we saw from Tiger program in 2000 would catch up to the troop membership five years later. Tigers feeds packs. Packs feed Troops. Troop membership is directly related to Cub membership. Can someone think of a Cub program change that resulted in long term growth? If National had done nothing to the program since 1957, how would we view the program today? The three leaders who started our troop ran it as close to the program we experienced in the 1960s and 70s as we possibly could within the limitations of program changes. Our troop of 17 scouts (11 crossovers, 5 older scouts) grew to a troop of over 100 scouts in six years. Forty Five percent of the scouts were 14 and older. We were not even close to the biggest troops in the council, but we had more older scouts than any unit (Crews Included) in the Council. That is nearly half the state of Oklahoma. Council noticed and tried very hard to convince us into creating a Venturing Crew. But we resisted by pointing out that our troop program model (1960s Patrol Method model) was the reason we were so successful. A Venturing Crew didn't fit in that model. My point of all this is to say that in my opinion, the declines aren't how National attempted to fix the hole, but are instead a result of National creating a lot of new holes from a series of bad decisions. Some here have said that people change. Population attitudes change. Still, I wonder if a 1957 BSA could be successful today? Barry

The Disney steamboat is a fake? I hate growing up.

Human instinct drives youth going through puberty to show their best toward the opposite sex. I have observed many times over the years that scouts between 13 and 15 struggled the most with the uniform because they were questioning if it showed them at their best. Youth before puberty are instinctively followers blending in the herd, so they don't question individuality. Older scouts 15 older have become comfortable with who they are, so the uniform is just part of scouting program like a uniform for a sport, so they are fine with it. Leaders who understand this predictable behavior can stand back with more patience and mentor them with empathy of what they are going through at the different stages. I'm reminded of our 14 year old scout who nearly collapsed after our first 5 mile full pack hike getting ready for Philmont. Among the items in his 50lb pack was a large jar of hair gel. We didn't tell him that he couldn't bring it, we only said that the 5 lb jar needless weight was also bear bait. To the surprise of the whole crew, he still brought the hair gel to Philmont. We were not going to let him take it, but in our wisdom of past experiences, we let the Philmont Trail Guide be the bad guy. I imagine the OPs daughter is in this challenging stage. I sure hope so. She will wear the jacket when either the weather conditions and/or her confidence in her appearance out weigh shivering from the cold. Barry

My observation is that inspections aren’t respected without some expectation of benefit. Nothing teaches the value of something until it is missed. Some here will be amazed to learn that patrols in our troop have survived the whole weekend after forgetting their tents, stoves, rain gear, and even food. Im not saying don’t do inspections, inspections are great for leadership development. But don’t be surprised when the Scouts show up unprepared because experience is still the greatest teacher. Im ashamed to admit I don’t have much empathy for the OP, but I’m crediting that to observing so many youth learning from their stupid choices. Barry