Eagledad

So true. The struggle for many is just believing the bible is the word of God. If a person can't get past that, then differing interpretations are just semantics. And it seems these days semantics is more about yelling the loudest. But Christianity is under a great attack, and homosexuality is the main reason. Just note who leads the the protest against Christian political policies today and likely it based from the gay activist. We are seeing it a lot just in our town locally. And it's a logical conclusion because while many religions have differing perspectives of behaviors, most religions (big three) pretty much agree that homosexuality is not one of the good behavior. So, by conviencing the community that religion is a silly mythical exercise, the immoral can become moral. Then there is the purity of natural science, the biology of all animals is to survive and appropriate. Technology may conveniently provide allowances, but in the strict context of natural biology, heterosexuality reigns. So, even in the purest form of a pragmatic discussion, self desire must exist to even have a discussion. Barry

We've been following the Girl Scout program from a distance for a long time. They got lost in the 70s and 80s from financial support by the women's lib organizations. Money speaks. I have seen their program change the themes several times over the years trying to field a understandable process for the ideal program of future women. But just as politics have changed over the years, so followed the program. I remember a big push for a leadership program back in the 90's that encouraged even their Daiseys to express leadership actions. The problem then and now is the organization keeps setting visions without any processes for reaching the visions. Our personal experience is the local council level leadership is lost in vision, so the program changes day by day. The only thing that can help the GSUSA is good marketing because their program certainly won't be the primary attraction. The BSA was the envy of other outdoor youth organizations because it didn't struggle with changing visions and missions. Part of that is do to the original theme of scouting created by Badon Powell. But most of the reason the BSA kept on the strait and narrow path of building character through a boy run theme was the huge support of it's alumni. Alumni support based on their experience, so they don't like change. No other youth program has (had?) near the financial support from alumni as the BSA. I'm not sure when that support started to fall, but I'm sure the cultural pressure on traditional scouting had a great influence. Ironically that National is admitting girls to increase membership is likely to be a last straw for many alumni. Barry

The coded messages must be working. I'm craving a couple of Samoas just reading this discussion. Barry

I agree. This is the suggestions I gave in training as well for both the pack and the troop programs. If the scouts enjoy the program, they will make an effort to come to the meetings. Many of scouts go strait to the bathroom to change from their sports uniform into their scout uniform. Barry

The program two years ago was just boys. Gays six years ago. Every scouting program that changes to girls eventually made god optional. So we will see on the God part. I think many of the Eagle alums will struggle that it’s holds the same respect. I personally believe it’s starting all over with girls now. Barry

That is very good Hawkwin, thank you. Barry

I agree. I spoke of this very point at Woodbadge and other leadership courses. But there is a lot of independent thinking required of adult leaders in this program. It's not easy for leaders on either end of the spectrum to guide their scouts of their spiritual duties. My concern isn't so much how to insure spiritual application at the scout level. My concern is taking out the spiritual intent at the Vision and Mission level of the program. From the BSA, "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." No matter how any adult interprets ethical and moral choices of their scouts, they can always reference the one and only source of their interpretation to god. Or God, in my case. Once god is taken out as the source of ethical and moral thought, only the adults can take credit for how they judge their scouts' moral actions leaving the scouts no recourse in their response. While BP may have been speaking of a practical religion, he still believe the source of living the Oath and Law was spiritual. What a strange thing to say. I must admit I had a hard time deciding whether to take the rest of your post seriously. I can't tell if these words are a response of pride or humility. Barry

Quite right. We struggle to put into words the significance of the Oath and Law in our daily decisions. But just about everyone understands the value of good character. Good character is every parent's desire for all their kids. Good character is what the employer wants from employees. Good character is how mans actions toward each other is measured. So, ask anyone, and everyone, to give one word that describes "Scouting" and likely character will be mentioned most. For scouts, character is defined as the Oath and Law. Scouts are luckier than most because they have a guide for how to act in good character. It is something that most of their friends don't have. Loadstone, I like that. Barry

There are a great many of adults in our district that think Woodbadge is BSA4Adults. Barry

NJ, I think your second point is the reason why your first point is just plain silly. Barry

Yes, but my experience is that when parents are more personally invested as members, they are more proactive with giving suggestions. Not that big a deal in cubs, but stressful at many levels in the patrol method program. Unless the unit has adult leaders with a strong and confident understanding of the Aims of scouting, and how the Methods structure reaches those goals, the troop typically tends toward parent run. Barry

Good post. As has been pointed out in previous threads, other than tapping into a new demographic to refresh the recruiting, National isn't proposing any program changes to attempt fixing the retention problem. Barry

The soul of the program is the vision. Volunteers shape toward the program, not the other way around. Anyone remember the forum member Bobwhite? He preached that if the unit wasn't performing, then they weren't following the published BSA guidelines. Top companies are successful because they hire like-minded in employees who believe in the product and vision. I was reading the different discussions on this forum the other day thinking how little we discussion operations anymore. Techniques for building the program toward developing character using the tools given by the BSA used to dominate this forum. God is the last holdout for liberals. It won't be long. Without a moral cornerstone, there can be no foundation for developing character. Barry

The only thing left is taking god completely out of the program. That will make the transition to total progressivism complete. I know it's just me and my nature, but I have to laugh when these changes are called progressive. I know progressives, "still laughing", like to use the Scouts program in England as and example of a scouting program recovering after making sharp left turns, but I keep watching the Canadian Scouts which doesn't show such hope. Doesn't really matter, the program lost its soul. Barry

True, but young males who matured through puberty also instinctively resist change. I agree the attraction to the opposite sex is very powerful, but the attraction can be entertained almost anytime and anywhere outside of scouting. Especially in this culture. The scouting experience for each scout is personal, even a bit sacred. I would be surprised to see the older scouts so willing to give it up. I used to coached units (and still do on this forum) that when the adults go through a leadership change, dramatic program changes come from the young scouts who have not yet bonded with personal experiences. Appease the older scouts until they move on. Build the new program with the younger scouts. Barry

The author admits near the beginning of the article that accepting girls is a business decision. Basically greed. But later she says it's advancing patriarchy? The article says more about the NYTimes than the changes of the BSA. But I snicker because the tone of her article asumes the folks driving this change at National are somewhat clever or smart. Barry

People who never made a mistake never tried anything new. Albert Einstein

I believe anyone should be allowed to attend committee meetings. How the meetings are run determines who wants or needs to attend them. Each unit is different. Special closed meetings are called for sensitive discussions. And I find the fewer the better for those meetings. Barry

It’s really more of an attitude. You do what you can do with your resources. The patrols in my troop as a youth always roped off the patrol campsites whether or not we were 100 yards, feet, or whispering distances apart. Scouts of other patrols were expected to ask for permission to enter the other campsites. Barry

As I was walked by a patrol, a scout asked, in a tone loud enough to carry, is the rinse water supposed to be hot or cold? But as the scout finished the question, he was already walking away saying”I know, check the handbook.”. The biggest problem with the Scout Handbook is the adults, because, other than advancements, they really don’t know what the books say. Example: the handbook is very clear how and when a scout wears the uniform. Yet, every troop has a different policy. Our scouts were always encouraged to reference all their sources when they taught subjects. They were also always encouraged to keep them near as a source for their scouting activities. So we are big fans of the handbook. That being said, Reading the handbook to the group might come in handy when trying to emphasis a point (like wearing the uniform), but a steady diet of readings might have the most impact after lights out. Barry

This is a difficult question. Was the CM out of line? Yes, in general the adult by stander is not the judge of right or wrong in a patrol method program. On the other hand, did the Patrol leader need some guidance? We talk about learning from decisions and adults giving the scouts space to learn, but there is so much grey area that it’s hard to know where the adults role is defined. Learning from our mistakes takes practice. Knowing how to turn experiences into positive growth takes time and patience. this troop sounds young and inexperienced. The adults need as much time and practice to learn as the scouts. Quazse and NJ are both good reading. Your son’s troop is somewhere in between. So let’s look in the big picture. My advice is ask the son if the CM was right? If he says maybe, then ask the son why he is angry. If the son feels what the CM said was wrong, then the son has challenges at several levels. I would ask him to take some time to reflect, then talk to the SM. Then I would give my own opinion after they talked. There is something for all of us to learn from the sons experience. In our lives, we will always have CMs telling us what is right and wrong. The challenge is how a scout (and mature adult) should handle the situation when the CMs are right, and when they are wrong. And trust me, it’s just as challenging for a scout master to find the right words as it is the parent. The SM has has the added burden of adult pride to counter with. We CMs stand pretty tall and don’t like to fall. I hope the son sorts this out and has a life learning experience. I hope the SM has great wisdom for the scout. I hope the CM has to work weekends and misses the next few camp outs. Barry

I don’t know Eagle93, National has admitted they brought in girls to save the program from a declining membership. Switch the BSA and GSUSA titles around and your post would be just as believable. The BSA membership numbers have been dropping for many years. Once the influx of girls is stable, National has done nothing I can see that prevents the return of a continued membership decline. A good marketing slogan for the BSA in this moment could be: “Join the BSA, the lesser of two evils”. Barry

Admitting girls was the deal breaker for me. I will not be registering with my grand kids. But, my kids aren't happy about admitting girls to the program either, so I'm not sure that would come up. However, pragmatically, I don't think these YPT changes would have affected our program much 20 years ago. Barry

If you have the clout, go for the District Commissioner. I personally believe the DC is most power person in the district and has the most leverage with council. Besides other advantages, the DC can control the training and training materials. I believe (I know) training is the fastest avenue for making broad changes through the units. The DC was my goal for taking over the world, bru ha ha ha. By the time I was asked, I was so burned out that I declined. I know, but just the possibility that the person at the other end of my ringing phone was someone wanting to talk scout business nauseated me. And, that is why you haven't seen the world change for the better. Barry

Seems like a reasonable change with a coed program. Over the years I learned of scouting behavior situations and statistics that shocked me. I know that there are boy scout babies in the world. I knew that far enough back that those babies could be adult leaders now. One of my Patrol Method role models, who I met on the forum, quit scouting because of the coed problems in their Troop/Venturing Crew program. He and I were chatting (1997) at a Camporee 1:00 am while sitting between the girls and boys tents. He felt that American youth in our culture weren't mature enough to be coed. They were probably doing it wrong, because I know of a lot of successful Troop/Venturing programs that don't have this problem. Still, even church camps have to deal with the situation. But now we live in an open gay, transgender , and whatever culture. In fact, in some ways these behaviors are encouraged. I have heard of youth sexual abuses in scouting. And If I know of a couple, you can bet National has enough information to motivate such a requirement. The only time I can recall any of our scouts tenting together that were more than two years apart was a 16 year old scout who volunteered to monitor (babysit) a severely mentally retarded new scout. And, many of the sexual abuse reports I learned about were with scouts of the same age, and consensual. So, it's not and end all. Barry