Eagledad

Oh! A Yankees fan too. Yes, a lot of tripwires there. Barry

That is an interesting response. Was he ever planning to be active as an adult leader? Could he consider allowing his daughter to make that choice? Is he just making a political statement? You probably don't know the answer and I understand it doesn't matter because it isn't any of your business. I only wonder about it because we had several scouts with atheist and gay parents. And even thought they couldn't join he BSA officially, they still actively supported the program. Barry

Here is something interesting. Pope's reported comment to a gay man may indicate a new level of acceptance of homosexuality http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-pope-chile-gay-20180520-story.html Barry

My apologies David. Barry

I’ve said several times on this forum that humility is the greatest leadership trait because it is the ultimate action of serving. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples (fulture leaders of the Christian movement) explaining the first should be last and last should be the first. Humility doesn’t stop with age and actions of humility shows the Scouts that our character is always evolving. 18 is the age limit for being labeled a youth in the BSA, but it’s not the limit for the game with a purpose. I became a better father, husband and community citizen because of my scouting experiences at age 45. Barry

One of the older scout’s teaches woods tools safety on the first new scout camp out each year so the new Scouts can use their knife. We require all new adults attend the class as well, mostly so they see boy run in action. I remember one new adult was a little perplexed about how the older scout instructor taught knife sharpening. The technique was different from how he learned when he was a scout. He very politely asked the instructor about it and the instructor responded by giving the adult a page number reference in the scout handbook. You never know how some adults react to these classes, but this adult told me later that he knew his son was in the right troop simply by the way the instructor responded to his question. He said, “I’m an Eagle Scout and I thought I knew everything about scouting and camping. The instructor, on several levels, politely showed me that I still have a lot to learn.” I didn’t watch the Scouts teach the course because I wanted the new adults to see that I trusted them even in teaching safety. But I sure was proud of him. Barry

Well first, I believe boys at this age need a program for boys. We've had many discussions on that subject, but you can certainly start another. I just don't feel the boys program should be sacrificed simply to raise overall numbers. Second, the infusion of adults without the youth scouting experience will naturally dilute the patrol method part of the program to the point that it won't be recognizable in 10 years (10 years is roughly two generations of scouts). That is because after working with dozens of units over the years, I don't believe patrol method can be implemented correctly without some patrol method experience. Barry

Good post. I think a coexist bumper sticker on the bus of the BSA 30 years ago would have been great marketing. Sadly, political activism has driven passionate divisions through the American population to the point of discarding anything that represents the other side. Hey, the Coexist bumper sticker was created to be politically divisive. I believe the BSA membership would have been better off if National hadn't done anything the last 10 years because there are other reasons besides morality to resist gays, transexuals and girls. However, we are witnessing that without any internal resistance, traditional conservative outdoor youth organizations in North American can be changed by just a few assertive adults. I would have never thought we would go through the same experience of the Canadian Scouts. But that was silly of me, the Canadian Scouts had the largest membership in the world in 1990. If the giant of scouting could be brought to it's knees, why not the BSA. Barry

I'm curious to learn what the Catholic teaching is on homosexuality? Barry

The United Methodist is more complicated, they do no parrot National. At the most they parrot the General Methodist Convention. National is very liberal and publically supports liberal causes, which is why it is viewed a left moderate Church. But the bylaws are created by the more conservative delegates at the Methodist General Convention. The United Methodist Mens are independent and generally viewed as conservative. I'm told liability is the main reason they submitted to allowing gays in their units. Barry

The scouts are responsible for finding their activities in our troop. If the adults want to see the lay of the land, we do it without the scouts. Summer camp is really good place for scouts to learn practice navigating strange camps to find their courses and activities. It's a very growing experience for new scouts. The SPL goes to most of the logistics meetings also. We may send an adult with him the camp requires it. Our SPLs work so hard at summer camp that we pay his camp fees. It's benefit, but they earn it. Barry

Actually the CO's do it all the time. Many COs use the scouting program as their youth program. In general families looking for a troop already know this by the CO's name or reputation. But having specific expectation of their scout unit members and imposing their behavior expectations is not unusual. Barry

You're confusing your statements. We have a very strong moral code. The Oath and Law define our code. But the code is for both the adults and scouts. The program is based on scouts learning from their decisions and from watching their role models. The role model adults are the judges of the scout 's decisions. I'm not sure how you think adults don't impose their moral code. In fact, the strong impact of role modeling is why I don't agree with allowing gay scout leaders. They don't have to perform actual sex in front of scouts to express agreement for the behavior. And please, I'm not trying to turn this into a gay leader debate, it's just an example of how adults impose morality. Or immorality I guess. Barry

We (YOU, ME and all ADULT LEADERS) all impose our personal morality on the scouts because we are their judge of right and wrong. We just don't call it morality, we call it the Oath and Law. But it is morality. And if you don't think that is intended, I suggest you read the BSA Mission Statement. Also, sponsors have the freedom to expect certain behaviors to be enforced on their scouts. Families are given the freedom to choose any unit they want. Barry

I'm quite sure sure you would stand up the same way of a program that you truly felt was dangerous to kids. You might have already said something similar about a political party or party policy. Inspired by his passion, he is trying to prevent kids from getting hurt. Barry

We get two camps to separate the scouts and adults. Then it doesn't matter how many adults attend. It doesn't cost anymore and the logistics have a lot of advantages for a boy run program. Generally the camps are just across the road or trail from each other. Barry

We define it through the law and oath. Of course everyone has their opinions on scout like behavior as well, but the BSA does reference doing our best to god. God is the holding place for being a moral program. Once god is taken out, man becomes the source for morality. As I said in another post, once man takes credit for good and bad behavior, it's over because how can a scout find reference of his behavior when it depends on his scoutmasters emotions of the moment. Pragmatically, only god or God can ever be the source of morality in a values based program. Barry

I can understand that you disagree or that you believe it's over the top, but I don't believe it was intended to be a personal attack at the readers. I read it more as venting. Legacylost, and many many others believe that the changes by the BSA could be more harmful to boys than before. While I wouldn't express myself in the same manner legacylost, I find his post refreshingly honest. Barry

It seems your last paragraph conflicts with the first. How does one share their differences and not sound personal or even derogatory. I have made many of what I felt were objective nonpartisan comments on this forum over the years that resulted in a lot of emotional responses. Your words could be interpreted as anti religious. Is that what you mean? Maybe you are just over reacting to certain words. For example, a great many people feel that homosexuallity is immoral. Do you believe your opinion is superior over them, or just different? How you react could come off as personal and derogatory. Barry

Well, we just have to disagree as you and I always have in many these things. But from your words, you appear to be mixing your theory of atheism into the intent of the founders of the organization. From my perspective, why would any organization not allow atheist if it isn't based in some way with morality? After all the BSA states that: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the value of the Scout Oath and Law." Add to that the reference of reverence and god in the oath and law, morality is a specific point of reference to the program. Barry

Not too long ago the BSA didn't allow gays in the program. That was a moral policy in a nondenominational program. Atheist are still not allowed as members in the BSA. I would say that is also a moral policy in a nondenominational program. I think everyone has their limits of immorality, even atheist. The BSA has reached that limit for a lot folks. Barry

It's best to have them on your side. If they are active, I would get them involved, but the majority of charters around here don't get that involved. This is really about safety in the unit. Both adults and scouts need to feel the unit is a safe place. You have a better feel for the temperments of all involved. This may be nothing more than sitting down with the parents with a cup of coffee. But we learned the hard way to deal with these things quickly before emotions escalate. Barry

The scout's situation was handled. That is why council isn't doing more. So it seems the parents are upset with the decision. The troop just needs to support the decision for the scout to start over with another project. Seems like a pretty fair act of discipline to me. Many troops would have asked the scout to leave. But scouting is giving scouts the opportunities to learn life's lessons from their choices in the troop. The troop is giving the scout the chance to learn and grow from his bad decision. Yes, the troop can bar the parent from troop functions. Actually it's a choice. The parent can choose to stay away from functions, or the family can change troops. Our troop has done it several times. Some parents chose to stay away, some chose to change troops. As for the money, it really depends on who donated the money and what the scout decides to do with the next project. I would invite the scout to be part of the discussion. This is the time for the scout to really show his metal by accepting the troops decision and moving forward with the project, and asking his parents to back down. Or not, and forcing the troop leaders to make tough decisions about how the deal with this situation, and situations like them in the future. This is when a good strong CC is worth their pay. It's these kinds of situations that drove me to find strong minded CCs. In my case, they were usually women. Mothers don't put up with....this stuff. Barry

Not really enough details to understand the question. Is the parent the problem? If so, ask the parents in for a meeting with the CC, UC and DE to discuss the situation. Aggressive adults are simply not allowed near the scouts or leaders. Nip it in the bud. Councils typically lets (wants) the units to deal with these situations, so the unit will have to be the bad guy. But they will usually support the unit leaders. Units have to take a stand against aggressive behavior. Barry

To what end? Even giving up all the salary would have little effect on the problem. I believe if voice is to have impact, one has to be careful that their rhetoric doesn't give the appearance of class envy. I heard (don't know how true) that the concern is more about funding retirements long term. Barry