Eagledad

Another thought is Ask another Troop if you can camp next to them. Separate programs, but additional adults in the area. Barry

Wood Badge is intended for participants to understand where they fit in the program and planning to develop skills for that fit. Wood Badge is not a skills development course. It’s very good at helping leaders build a plan for their scouting future, provided the staff is good at guiding in seeing that future. Many staffs don’t understand the intention of Wood Badge and instead just play their staffing part for the fun of being on staff. Personally I think Wood Badge is better fitted torward adults in cub scouts looking at a long future in scouting. If you have a plan like ASM, then I think your time is better training for ASM. if you aren’t sure, probably a year of just hanging out at meetings and camp outs will help you out. I do believe Wood Badge is a good course for committee member, especially committee chairs. Not because it teaches committee skills, but because it teaches how to see the vision of the program and build teams toward that vision. It is the Committee Chairman, not the Scoutmaster or Cub Master, who should have the program vision and recruit and train the unit leaders toward the vision. But as I said, Wood Badge is only as good as the staffs that run them. And that is hard to measure. That is why I think so many participants have a low opinion of the course. Barry

Good reply. I think it expresses the thoughts of much of our society. But, if I may humbly give a personal anecdote; the Scouts surprised me with the Scoutmater Award Of Merit during a COH. In the presentation speech by the SPL, he stated that he didn’t know my religion, but he knew I was a deeply religious man. The BSA program has one set of directives that most other organizations don’t have in building respect for the differences of each member of the patrol, the Scout Oath and Law. The Oath and Law not only don’t conflict with the teachings of most religions, they enhance them. Even bring clarity. Sadly, we underestimate the power of consistently measuring our actions with the Oath and Law, so we don’t grow in the habits of using them. What other program does that as well as the BSA. Barry

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/barbara-kay-the-male-crisis-thats-ruining-our-boys-and-no-one-cares-about I’m posting this article because it hints to what many of us were saying during adding girls debate. The article is mostly centered around fatherless boys, but there is some mention of what boys need to develop their instinctive nature that I’ve talked about in other threads. For example: “As Farrell and Gray explain: “The traditional boy’s journey to self-sacrifice incorporated service to others, and required responsibility, loyalty, honour, and accountability. It created his mission. And his mission created his character.”” I get that the BSA has moved on and there is no going back, but just maybe a few here will be swayed to consider the needs of the boy, sperate from the girl, and bend their family scouting program, at least a little, toward that need. I know that as much as girls needed a program like the Boy Scout program, boys need it a lot worse. Barry

No Way, you sat in a Thunderchief? That is such a cool airplane. The only one I’ve seen was at the Air Force Museum. It’s huge for a fighter. EAA Camp, How Cool Is That! You have struck onto my other passion, all things aviation. I have worked in some part of aviation almost my whole adult life. My airplane passion started when I was young talking about fighter airplanes at our patrol campfires. I learned more about cars, girls, airplanes and movies at those campfires than other time in my life. Campfires were a great time for patrols brothers bonding together. And I pushed our patrols to have the same experience. Thank you. I’m humbled. I can’t think of what I could teach someone with your experience. Barry

I'm not watching this subject all that close since I'm out of the program now, but you guys are painting a scary picture that would not have worked well in our troop. The program is starting to look more like a cross between Webelos III and YMCA.

Well! This discussion has turned into a downer. BUT HEY, there's another discussion on breakfast tacos. Barry

I still don't think the attitude thing I was talking about is coming across in the discussion. I witnessed the adults setting the camp on fire by doing something very stupid. The scouts were participating in a different activity on the other side of camp, so they didn't see it. When the scouts learned how the fire was started, "stupid" was mumbled through the group. If the adults are around for the health and safety issues of the scouts, who is there for the adults? The health and safety justification is overused to the point of diluting the real reason adult method is even part of the program. What do you need to personally feel comfortable letting a patrol hike without the presences of adult leaders? If training adults the values of patrol method are to be effective, "safety" has to be at the bottom of list. If that is a challenge, then you aren't ready for a patrol method program. Barry

You don't see it? The DRP is directed at role models. Interesting to me is that I think you and I had this same discussion a few years ago on gay adult leaders. I have no problem with youth struggling to find themselves during a very complex time of their life. Scouting might even help them find themselves. But the adult role models theoretically know who they. Barry

Yes, it's about space, but not just physical distance. Patrol method "requires" an attitude of space that represents taking interference away from scouts making decisions based on their personal free thought. The intention of traditional scouting program is to give the scouts the room to make a decision without fear or thought of outside authority (outside the patrol) interfering with judgement. That is the challenge for adult leaders. And it is very challenging. Most adult leaders can't do it. Even fewer parents can do it. It's impossible with families. Barry

100 yards.

I don't think you realized your poor choice of words. Barry

Two differences between Northern Tier and Philmont are mosquitoes and water. When the sun goes down by the lakes, the mosquitoes can turn the experience into a horror movie. So do some research for protecting yourself, treated long pants and shirts and head gear are a few usggestions. Your foot gear takes a much harder beating in the wet environment of the Northern Tier. As a result, boots and water shoes wear out much faster. Ask your camp leader for advice on boots. And, socks are very very important because your feet will be constrained in a damp environment. We used Smartwool socks with liners. At least two pair so one pair would be drying. But I'm old, I think three pair are better, so you have a dry pair for just around camp. Those are the big differences between the two camps just off the top of my head. Oh, you can take a bath every day in the Northern Tier. Ahhhhhh! Barry

And it begins, little by little the principled foundation of the program gets diluted until the values of character are meaningless. Barry

No clubbing because the "coastal wiring" (great description) is to some degree entertaining. Barry

I'm not sure what we would debate. A discussion without denigrating would be interesting. Funny thing happened at work yesterday. A colleague, who I've worked with for 20 something years and attended the same high school 50 years ago came to my office to talk about her 50th high school reunion. She graduated a year after me, so we had a lot of the same friends. Well a group gathered as she was telling me how proud she was of her friends because they are more accepting of blacks, Jewish, gays and so forth. I noticed the crowd looking at us in wonder, so I explained that in our school of 1500 students, we had 3 blacks, and I'm not sure of any Jewish or anyone else. We didn't have racism in our part of the world because there wasn't anyone to be racist at. I looked at her and said if we were guilty of anything, it's that we grew up naive. I would rather be naive then so judgmental of your friends who didn't grow up in a school where we could even practice racism. She took a step back and didn't know what to say. She brags about being very liberal on the political spectrum. I think she realized that she was being the very person she was accusing her friends at our school. I kind of feel like that is where our culture is. The general population is being accused of all kinds of horrible things by cultural political activist when in reality the worst we can say is we were, or are, just naive. I'm still trying to wonder where those of us who don't approve of gay behavior fit. Can't change the bible or biology. Are we eventually going to jail. Or can the culture accept each others differences. I'm still seeing the word homophobic being thrown out every once in a while on this forum. The word homophobic is defined as an irrational aversion to homosexuals. Where is the line drawn between rational and irrational? And, what about those who have an irrational aversion toward the religious. What are they called, moral-phobics. The more we try to become inclusive, the more exclusive we seem to have become. Barry

Thanks for the clarification. I think two subjects were combined into one, helping out the camp staff and giving new scouts independence. Well, I tend to speak in idealism and work my way back. There are plenty of resources for scouters for most of the situations they run into. But the adults have to want to find answers. More often than not, scouters don't do the research and work the situation their way, not the BSA way. You think training will help? Training doesn't train person to be an expert, they train them in learning what they need to learn. BUT, I found through polling scouters at Woodbage that less than 20% of Scoutmasters have read all their SM Handbook. Less than 10% of ASMs. Passion seems to be the driving motivation for learning the concepts and elements for a Patrol Method program. Like you, those scouters are easy to identify. They like to talk about patrol method or boy run and they typically studied and read Badon Powel and William Hillcourt (Greenbar Bill). They can usually identify the Aims and Methods and how they apply to the patrol method. I'm not sure that Patrol Method was every easy for scouters, but it sure is harder today. Barry

With all do respect, there is absolutely no reason for adults to "ensure they (scouts) get to the program area" and "make themselves (adult leaders) available to assist (camp staff). One is just an excuse for the other. The primary mission for the troop is growth of your scouts. If you are uncomfortable letting your young adult scouts find their way in an area that doesn't get any safer than a Scout camp, then we can have a discussion about that subject. There is no safer place for your youngest scouts to grow and mature than the environment of summer camp. It is a safe place for them to make bad decisions. If your troop feels the need to supply volunteers to the camp, then they need to approach the camp director first when they arrive at camp. The adults need to leave for those program areas before the scouts and come back after. The scouts just need to be walking around camp with scouts. We typically had about a dozen adults attend camp with us. The only direction they were given is stay away from the scouts and enjoy themselves. If they wanted to help at programs, they could, but not along side their sons or scouts. They could fish, hike, sail and canoe, but not around the scouts until free time. Then if dad and and son wanted a little dad and son time, they could do it during free time. But the adults knew summer camp is where the scouts get intense patrol method experiences and we would rather give as much of that experience as we could. Which is why our troop typically puts the adults in a different campsite. Not far, the giggling new scouts still kept me up at night. Usually just across the road, but the intent is clear. Our experience every year is that the parents of new scouts tell us their sons came back a different person. In a very good way. I'm pleading, don't miss this opportunity to let these young men stretch their confidence and maturity by letting them make their own decisions at summer camp. If they get lost, they and their buddy will learn to ask for help. If they aren't in the mood to go to an uninteresting program, they and their buddy will learn from the consequences of their decision. But the adults must be prepared that the scouts had the best time of their lives because they chose something different from the adults. As you watch these boys grow to make adult decisions, you will grow to love this scouting stuff. Barry

Family scouting certainly will. Barry

Yes, but there is a difference between playing the adult game of scouting and the scouting game of scouting. Growing and maturing is typically assumed as growing more character and more wiser, "as and adult". So let's be careful how we define the game. Barry

I don’t understand, duty to god is our values. How is that redundant? Barry

I don’t know. My son in law is in marketing and one of his State of Oklahoma clients told him that figure. I will ask him where they got that number. But a friend also raise the same question and wondered if that included grandparents who take care of their grandkids during the day while the parents were at work. Seems more reasonable. Barry

I gave the SPL a simple agenda guideline for running meetings. Something like -reading of last weeks minutes -officer reports -old business -new business -SM minute (which was rare because I didn’t attend most meetings after the SPLs first 4 meetings) Our troop ran a 30 PLC meeting every week before the troop meeting, so he had a lot of practice. Program is fairly easy because he has been doing program since he joined the troop. PLC meetings are new for them because success requires the SPL to plan ahead, control the group, be organized, and delegate. Those are alot of skills to learn just to run a 30 minute meeting. And the success of entire program is dependent on that meeting. So I started simple with just giving him the short simple meeting agenda to follow. Then I watch how he plans the meetings, runs the agenda, controls the group and delegates or follows action items and assignments. It seems like there is a lot more to the responsibility for the leader of the whole program, but he will learn how to lead, support, serve, and guide the whole program simply by mastering the skills to run a successful meeting. All those skills I mentioned are required for a successful servant leader and require practice to master, but surprisingly controlling the group is always the most challenging. The skills he develops as a servant leader in controlling and guiding the members of the PLC in the meetings will develop his skills in serving and supporting all the Scouts in the whole troop. The agenda is a simple start for the new SPL, but he quickly finds it the most challenging thing he has ever done in Scouts. But it’s ok, I know he will struggle and I’m in no hurry. Barry

Does the SM follow the same policy? Barry

Maybe the BSA should get out of the family structure business. I just learn that 51 percent of children in our state (Oklahoma) are being raised by ltheir grand parents. FIFTY ONE PERCENT! I'm told drug addiction is the main cause and it is a huge rural problem, suggesting low income levels. Still, I work in a PHD rich department and I remember thinking 20 years that maybe education can be too much for some people because a 3rd of our department was raising their grand children. My faith teaches that family is the beginning of a moral righteous community. But, I'm seeing that confusing national cultural values can overwhelm the community, which can directly effects the dynamics of a weak family. We used to have pretty good debates on this forum. One of those debates was whether the only source of morality is god, or God in my case. National is struggling because they are finding themselves loosing god as the foothold of moral values, which is directly related to the family structure. Mention morality and family structure together in this forum and it brings out the worst in us. The American culture is becoming more anti religious (which naturally defaults to anti family in my opinion) and that challenges the BSA default fallback suggestion of "discuss this with your parents". Which parent! I had scouts with three step dads and moms. Over the years, Qwazse has posted his observations of the differences between American youth and European youth. I paid attention because I was curious of why youth in Europe are more mature. We just got back from a 3 week trip in Italy and Qwazse was on the mark. The big difference we saw is that the family structure is still very strong. The community is a reflection of the family, not the other way around. My wife and I have noticed lately in our local restaurants that it's common to see each family member at a restaurant quietly focused on their cell phones. We didn't see any of that in Europe. I know that is a little think, but it sure stuck out to us. Ironically, I believe building a unit of scouts worth multiple religions and multiple family structures was easier before becoming a family program because the scouts didn't really care about backgrounds all that much. Now that families are more in control (parents), units might become more inclusive. I'm can't say that is a good or bad thing. Seek out a unit that fits your style. But it will have it's challenges. Barry