Eagledad

You may be surprised to learn that your son is average. Boys his age want adventure. They would rather not waste time with the boring administrative stuff. I'm not sure what advice to suggest because a lot depends on his program and how they value advancement in the program. We don't push our scouts either, but we do try to guide the to some small responsibilities where they have to set small goals and make plans to reach those goals. Our approach is for the scout develop habits that will lead him later to work his advancement at his pace. I would not worry about it for another few months because he is having fun. The only reason I would have any concern is we want the scouts to learn the skills of surviving in the woods. But you said he seems to be doing the requirements, he just hasn't done he boring admin stuff. Let him have his fun and see how it goes. See how the troop handles it, or if they handle it. And when you are tempted to ask about it, ask him about what he is learning instead of going directly to rank. He might be more excited to talk about that, and you can measure if he is growing in the program. Trust me, he has plenty of time to catch up. Keeping him in the program because he likes it is a lot more important at this stage of his troop experience. Has he set up his tent on a dark rainy night? That is pretty cool stuff. Barry

I came from the sand lot generation. I played sand lot baseball, football, Street hockey kickball. No parents or adult coaches, just us. The only thing our kids know about sand lot is the movie. Barry

Soccer is just one symptom of the larger situation that all the little league sports are seeing a decrease. My opinion is the parents are burning out from keeping their kids active. The kids are still getting involved in activities, but not several activities. Not that parents arent part of the problem, they are. I was a soccer coach for several years and being confronted by parents was scary as were opposing coaches. At least the team benches were across the field from each other, baseball is down right scary because the parents of both teams sit together. Like scouting, parents struggle to approach their kids involvement in sports from a youth development perspective because it isn’t presented that way. The only goal they understand is winning. Their sons are dragged along with their emotional ride. Barry

I don’t know what handgun my son uses, it has a lot of custom work done to it. But he shoots a tight grouping at 100 yards with hand loads also. I can hardly see the target at 100 yards, much less hit it with a iron sighted hand gun.😱 Barry

I was wondering, I have a friend who was talking about hunting moose with a handgun. I thought he said Maine, but I might be remembering wrong. 22 caliber can be more dangerous than larger calibers because they tend to bounce and ricochet, especially when shooting near body’s of water. Barry

Are sure about that? 22 and 223 calibers aren’t allowed here for large game because they aren’t large enough for a 1 shot kill. Rabbits and squirrels are ok. That is one reason why the AR15 is not a common hunting rifle, at least in our state. Barry

As you communicate with these people, keep in mind, excepting for the DE, everyone else are volunteers. Their backgrounds can be anything from truck driving to a Fortune 500 CEO. I wouldn’t expect experts in their scouting responsibilities. Barry

I’ve seen a lot, but I’ve not heard of this before. As others have said, your son is an Eagle and the ECOH is not part of the advancement process, which has been completed. The Troop, District, and Council have completed their official part in the process. From here forward, it’s personal. Yes, even the BSA says there should be a celebration and recognition, but that’s just a traditionally recognized formality, kind of like taking off the or putting the hand over the heart during the National Anthem. Nobody is obligated to give your family a ECOH. But, I’ve never heard of an Eagle being told the unit would skip their part of of the ceremony. I Only say this so you can approach the situation from a perspective that it’s personal . Is it wrong? I think so and I, as a parent, would be offended and angry. It’s not about the ECOH, it’s about disrespect directed at the whole family. ECOH are typically family events, as important as weddings for some families. NYCscouter has good instructions for proceeding, I would personally contact the CC to find out what is going on. I might even ask the DE (district executive) and DC (district commissioner) to stand with me as I ask the question. Keep in mind this may all be a misunderstanding, so always keep your composure, but something seems amiss from how it’s been communicated up to this point. Barry

Well, I am a can-do kind of guy, so no-way doesn't work for me. Barry

Feelings of the volunteers aren't false. The way National implements most of their policy changes lately is dragging their membership behind them and letting them deal with the fallout without support. Now that isn't all the time, National did a pretty good job of introducing their new leadership training back in 2000. They prepared the Council professionals of the new changes so that they could support the districts and units. Folks were still annoyed by some of the changes, but at least everyone felt they were in it together. I would like to give National some credit and even some benefit of the doubt, but it irks me that volunteers have no path of holding National accountable for their management. It's pretty much of a just sit and wait to see what will happen next type of relationship. Barry

Unless things have changed recently, my experience is National doesn't sluff off liability if the unit didn't follow policy. Barry

I don't know Calico, you didn't score any points on National hiding in the bushes looking to catch volunteers breaking policy. National isn't held accountable by anybody accept National. Criticism is warranted if for nothing else than balance. Barry

Another thought is educate the Scouts the benefits of changing the “non-cotton” socks before the troop leaves for camp and let them learn from their decisions. They will figure it out and the adults don’t get accused of hovering. I’m always amazing of how little scouts require to be comfortable compared to adults. Because I’m a skin cancer survivor, I did warn our scouts on every camp out that I would nag them about one thing, sunscreen.

I have a couple of questions that I'm not sure anyone on the forum can answer, when did women start taking positions at policy making level of National and how many are there now? Barry

Exactly!

I'm not so sure. I think they are too far from the trenches to feel enough humility to change. I had an opportunity to talk with a National professional once about program and the problems we were seeing at the district level. I commented about the burnout problem of the Cub program. He looked at me very seriously and said, in a condescending tone, "OK, what do you think we should do about it?" I said consider the idea of stepping back with Tigers. He said, "impossible!", and walked off. The walking off said more than his impossible response because we were having a somewhat arranged discussion. OK, I know I was way out there with the Tiger suggestion, but he didn't even show any desire to pursue a discussion. They know they have a problem, or problems. But, from the changes I've seen over my career of scouting, National tries to fix problems with changes the would benefit future ideas or plans. Not fix a present bad idea. I have never seen them step back from a previous change, they only seem to go forward by adding fixes to past changes. The Tiger program is a good example. I'm guessing that Nationals professionals are limited in the resources and talent to approach identifying the causes of problems and fixing those problems. As an engineer, I know working new ideas is easier than making bad ideas successful. Barry

It's also role modeling issue for me. Locally a high school student was expelled for two weeks because he found a butter knife in his lunch box in the lunch room. Turns out mom put the knife in the lunch box for him to spread the peanut butter on his sandwich. She didn't understand the rule and she didn't tell her son. Our youth learn how to use judgement by watching their role models and they spend most of their day as a youth at school watching adults in action. Where are they going to learn to judge behavior fairly if the adults aren't showing any judgment at all. Barry

Hmm, I disagree. Zero tolerance removes the burden of using judgement or reason to determine guilt. Even ticketed speeders can get their time in court before a judge. Zero tolerance takes out the humility of judgement and the risk of accountability. Barry

Parents who don’t understand the objective of programs are challenging because they don’t take the process seriously. I learned to work straight with parents to color in the vision. Either they relented, or they chose to leave. We never asked a single family to leave, but we gave them choices. I can’t see your troop’s situation improving until the strong adults agree to a program goal or vision. Either a family program, or a patrol method program. Until they decide, leaders will be frustrated. Barry

I have been watching National bailing water for over 25 years. I believe they never looked at declining numbers all that seriously because they believed the other program changes they implemented would out perform their program problems. I think they still believe that. Adding girls will save them. Barry

The problem is National has no mechanism for accountability. As far as they are concerned, they might be performing above their goals. Volunteers are dragged along for the ride. Barry

Add to that, a lot of troops (more than 50% in our district) use summer camp and MB Colleges for their total advancement. They want all new Scouts to leave as close to first class as they can. Barry

You’re missing the point CP, a warning of the danger would have been a reasonable explanation, National chose to insult and demean their volunteers into submission by basically saying the adults have intentions. I believe the motivation for holding a scout up-side-down is as much hazing as letting scouts camp without adults. Zero. But National chose the low road. Barry

Water guns, laser tag, and little red wagons are symbolic of the larger problem that National is not only out of touch with how scouting develops character, they are becoming more reactionary without common reasoning of the program and program activities. There doesn’t seem to be a pragmatic mind at National. They prohibited the popular Bobcat ceremony in the 90s where adults held the Cubs up-side-down while they pinned the Bobcat Badge to their uniform. Any reasonable adult had little trouble with the guideline because common sense tells us it’s a safety issue. But National restricted based on, “hazing”? Look up hazing and figure that one out. Instead of appealing to the common sense of parents, National was using a condescending trigger word to guilt their volunteers to change. That’s how much they respect their volunteers. The future of the BSA program is being directed (misdirected) by members whose emotions and and personal agendas are not getting balanced with practical reasoning and common sense. Yes, it’s just laser tag and water guns, and little red wagons, but in the big picture of the whole program, the reactionary justification behind those benign guidelines are leeching into all the decisions being pushed on the volunteers in the trenches. Sadley, the so called professionals at National can do what they want because there is no avenue in the system to hold them accountable? Barry

Thanks Richard Interesting. Nothing in your post changes what I've been trying to say. The Laser Tag restriction at best is a bit patronizing, over controlling, and over protective. Scouting is a safe place to practice how to differentiate between harm and fun. I believe today's helicopter parenting (and helicopter mentoring in scouting) adults are a result of not giving youth practice in these kinds of activities. Barry