Eagledad

I don't think there is any official reference that I remember. Our Council uses the White MB Cards that only have one line for the SM signature, which is required before the scout starts working with the counselor. The White Cards don't provide any administrative path for a denial. I always wondered if the 2nd SM signature on the Blue Cards was specifically to provide a path for denial. Once a scout gets the SM approval on a White Card to start working the MB, there is nothing to stop the awarding of the badge after the counselor signs off the completion. Barry

Bash? The thread is one person relaying an account of one adult loosing patience "once" on a younger adult in the troop who had fun and wants to go back. To turn this discussion into more than that is in my opinion an over reaction. In my post, I was just relaying some facts (truths) along with reasonable explanations of those facts. My example wasn't about you and it wasn't about women. It was a bigger picture description about a demographic of BSA adult volunteers who struggled under trying conditions. My career is developing data, analysing it, and recommending changes for improved performance. Honest reliable data tends to show ugly truths. But it is required to implement the correct changes for maximum desired performance. I didn't even give any details in my examples, which are much uglier. If you want the recent major membership changes in the BSA to succeed for the long future, you need to fasten your seat belt and accept whatever truths are required to make that happen. National has proven to be terrible predictors of future program performance, which forces reactionary corrections that are typically very messy. If membership isn't willing to be honest of the causes for program stumbling blocks, they must accept a bad program. I already have. Barry

I'm still thinking about this one. I got my Water Skiing MB when I was 12. I already knew how to ski when I got the badge, what I gained from that experience was better safety as a skier and boat driver. Pulling a skier through rough water or crowded lakes requires specific knowledge and skills to bring everybody back safe. Since many of the propeller accidents are the result of the boat running over the victim, I'm not sure the ends justifies the means. I did notice a new design for ski boats where the propeller is in front of drive putting more under the boat like an inboard drive. That would certainly be safer for ski safety. Barry

I understand, thanks. All of us here on the forum contribute our opinions based from our life experiences and personal principles. I have a lot of experience on this subject, and many similar reflections on this particular situation. So I'm not sure there is anything you could add for me to consider a different opinion. I've been to many many camps. Upon reflection, I believe a camp director would say that they deal with more adult misbehavior at Webelos camps than Troop or high adventure. And, I believe they would admit that the adults they have to call down generally moms. The female biology isn't the issue, the cause is lacking the experience of herding cats for several days in a row in dusty 95 degree heat and eating camp food. Like a good hot sauce, the stress is gradual, but eventually builds up to where the adult leader patience and nerves have been grated down to the nubs of their emotions. Of course men also loose control and have to reined back as well, especialy at the troop level. That's not to say some of adults shouldn't be restricted from personal interactions with scouts. I have experience there as well. And please don't consider that my response is flippant or without some thought. Quite the contrary, my opinion, like yours, came from a heavy price of many years dealing personally with adult behavior. I'm not trying to change your mind, I don't believe I could. I just suggest keeping an opened mind that there are other possiblities. Barry

Peer pressure can have amazing results. What works well is a supportive culture and it sounds like your troop has one. At summer camp I had an adult meeting Wednesday night to remind everyone that stress seems to peak in the middle of the week and to guard ourselves from over reacting. I was speaking from experience. Everyone needs a change to prove they learned from bad choices. Barry

I'm not really worried about the present generation of leaders changing the implementation patrol method. The new membership change will dilute the adult membership pool with more leaders who don't have any patrol method experience. The general expectation of patrol method will change, I think a lot, in a few years. It happened exactly like that when women first joined troops. If one hasn't experienced patrol method, understanding how the method changes and matures a young mind is hard to conceive. It's just hard to believe that it works. Also, just the promotion of a more family program will enable parents to assume they have more authority to drive the program to their way of thinking. The program will have to regress just to survive at a common agreeable objective. Barry

Yes, in most cases there were no hard feelings for us because the scout got what he wanted. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case for Eagle94 as well. The only time I can remember any hard feelings was families where the parents wanted their son to earn Eagle in a certain time frame and had to find another troop that would push their son that fast. Those parents turned away when I ran into them at the store. Barry

These things don't happen in a bubble. You read one post and assume the one scout is the victim and the adult leaders are the bad actors. But just as in my example, these things grow over time to a point of forcing hard choices to be made. Instead of assuming the scout was being forced against his will, maybe you should assume the troop gave in A LOT. Then ask questions to fill in the blanks. You and I clearly have different opinion of when adult leaders should step in. My boy run philosophy is to let situations force choices before the adults get involved, if they even need to get involved at all. Maturity grows from the application of humility when confronting the right and wrong of our choices. In both examples, the parents are the main characters because they are taking the lead in determining what their sons would get out of the program. The troop is the victim by appeasing to a family that doesn't like the program. The adult leaders acted nobly giving the parent time to make their a choice. Barry

That is not a completely fair statement because there is a whole troop of families who want their sons to benefit from the program. The program has goals and processes to reach the goals. Once the quality of the program is diminished by needs of a single family, then choices have to be made. Your troops program isn't for every family. It is OK for families to make the tough choices. Barry

Silly, I agree. But this situation actually happened in our troop. Twin boys who weren't enjoying the campout and they were making life difficult for the rest of the patrol. The patrol said if they didn't like it there, move in with dad. They did, and dad allowed it. Next day the twins wanted something different than what the patrol was cooking, so dad took them to McDonalds. It went downhill from there and that was the twins last campout with our troop. Their choice. Compromises depend on the programs. Sounds like the troop compromised a lot. Eventually the troop needed the family to make a choice for Boy Scouting, or whatever scouting they wanted. They made their choice. Choosing to leave a troop program is not a bad thing. We had a scout with mental disabilities leave his tent and walk out of camp on a 35 degree rainy night wearing just his underwear. We had made many compromises for this scout for about a year, but all agreed that OUR program was not for this young man. His parent made a choice, a good choice. You shouldn't have said the comment about forcing the scout, it wasn't fair to the troop that has been compromising. Scouting is not for every family. Barry

This suggestion won't work in our Patrol Method backpacking style troop. But I can see it in the new Family Method Program. Maybe a few kinks have to be worked out like sleeping in the same tent with Cub Scout sister and mom, but I'm sure it can be figured out some how. Does the scout really even need to be in a patrol? He can eat with the parents. Maybe hit McDonalds before assembly. The new BSA really opens up possibilities. Barry

As far as you can tell, is mom's reaction pride or mothering? Barry

BLACK ROBES! Talk about secret societies. Cult? Sacrificial virgin Webelos? I'm one of the lucky ones, my sons made it through Boy Scouts in the nick of time. Barry

Not likely if the changes are program pieces like a game and movie. Those of us who were WB trained previous to the WB21 theoretically had to start over, but I was one of the few they grabbed for a WB21 staff when nobody was trained. I don't know if I was the chicken or the egg. Barry

I'm sure you will get the answers to your question. But, you come off to most of us as having little understanding or experience with patrol method. How much do you have? Our discussion with your depends on your knowledge and experience. Barry

Many Scoutmasters too. Been there and done that. So many reasons why Scoutmaster's don't get much sleep. Barry

After watching my three adult kids with their families, I can say with confidence that you are setting up your son for a wonderful life. Well done. Barry

Have you considered taking your son on a camping trip without uniforms? Our best Webelos campout was the one we organized ourselves at a state park. Granted, it took a lot of planning to provide food and activities for 15 scouts and their parents for 5 days, but those now 30 year old adults tell me that was some of their best cub scouting memories. Well, if it's just the two of you, that would be easy trip to plan. Barry

They have not. And I have never heard of them shirking away from their promise. But, they will ask that the victim to use their personal insurance first. I did carry additional insurance when I was a SM because two parents threatened me with law suits. It just seemed like a good idea at the time. The parents backed off when they heard both sides of their son's story. If that is how parents react to youth organization volunteers, I can't imagine what my high school teacher kids hear from their parents. Barry

I read Walk in the woods post as sarcasm, but maybe he is looking for a glass quarter full. Still, I wonder if there is an opportunity here to bring honor back to OA by rehighlighting the camping and cheerful service of the program. Personally, I would push the minimum membership requirements back up to 13, maybe even 14 years of age to give scouts the time to develop the skills for an honor program. Then, try and wedge some of the mystery of the organization by restricting membership with higher minimal camping skills, cheerful service, and Living the Scout Oath and Law. Membership would be far from automatic for older scouts. Applicants would require resumes and witnesses. You would see fewer scouts with OA patches and sashes, but they would have the same respect of an Eagle. Such a radical application of scouting would be a challenge in the new Helicopter Family Scouting Program, but if it's done correctly and controlled with tradition, there might be something there. Barry

Yes, I agree. Traditions carry over the original idealism that fuels passion. Hopefully, you can keep giving them that passion. Barry

I mean you know disrespect all Oldscout, but your post represents how OA has been minimalized to irrelevance in the modern scouting program. Used to, Arrowmen were the heavy lifters, not entertainers. Oh sure, they performed ceremonies, but they were also the goto resource for clearing and cleaning up camps, clearing old trails and blazing new trails. They were brought in as experts for council camping activities and leaders of council outdoor activities. If you needed scout activities experts for large gatherings, you called OA. Their outdoor expertise was only marginally less than their reputation for cheerful service. Cheerul service is diving in without question or complaint. Nobody represented the actions of the Oath and Law better than an Arrowmen. They were in general the quiet voices in the shadows gently guiding young scouts in the direction of a scouting idealism. Ironically for me, I always envisioned Arrowmen with the same hero respect of Mohicans in the book, Last of the Mohicans. Barry

It might only bring the inevitable closer, but OA was already dying from over protection and cultural activism. OA is about Service and Outdoors, not pack ceremonies. The organization lost it's soul when leaders turned it from an honor organization into a first year camping prize. Arrowmen were super scouts back in my day and I'm lucky to always have the memory. I hate to see it go, but to me its just a logical step toward the New Family Scouting program. Barry

Ahh! thanks

Why isn't the ASM confronting the Scoutmaster/parent? Or, confronting the outgoing Scoutmaster/parent and incoming Scoutmaster? They need to know what is going on so they don't appear to be last, and so they can get on top of it. This may be a simple misunderstanding, but it needs quick and direct attention because the "bullying" word is being thrown freely around. At the very least it's housekeeping. At the very most change is required. Someone already mentioned it, but the troop needs develop a culture of openess. That means the scouts need to feel encouraged and safe to stop other scouts, and adults from bad decisions. The hard part here is the two main leaders happen to be directly or indirectly involved. That creates a difficult system of accountability at the top level. If the scouts can't trust their SPL, they typically go to the SM. But in this case.............. Barry