Eagledad

I'm not quite sure what all that means. Who should look at the mirror? Leadership is a standard BOR question on most BORs all the way to Eagle. Any question from an intimidating adult could be perceived as loaded. So, the issue isn't the question, it is the stressful BOR environment. And, if it is stressful for one scout, it is likely a problem for several. So, yes, something has to be fixed. And, it appears to me the SM is dodging the problem taking it on her own. That is not how to Fix the problem. The program has to be safe for all the scouts. Not just the one. I'm not giving a SM a break when their actions could cause more harm. I've seen it happen. Barry

As a retired SM of many hundreds of scouts and the trainer, advisor, and mentor of hundreds of Scoutmasters, I put the blame of this situation 100 percent on the Scoutmaster. First, I have said many times on this forum that I am not a fan of the current BOR process for two reasons; First, it interrupts the scout run process with a totally adult procedure that scouts could do themselves. Second, I don't like the adult run BOR for this very situation. The Troop brings young naive scouts and helps them build a trust of youth leadership, THEN throws them in room of adult strangers who asked them challenging questions in a testing format. I understand that the only objective of the BOR is to find issues with the program. But, it is the Scoutmasters program they are judging through the eyes of a scared shy naive youth. I have said many times that if the troop really wants to know how the Scoutmaster is doing, talk to the parents. I experimented with adding an Older Eagle Scout to the board for the Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and First Class BORs so the scout would have a friend in the room. And it worked very well. We couldn't do that all the time, but most scouts get comfortable with the BOR process by their 1st class BOR anyway. I'm curious: 1. How did this scout get to Star in these BORs? 2. How is he going to get through an EBOR of total stranger asking difficult questions. What bothers me about this situation is the Scoutmaster missed and opportunity to help the scout grow so he can deal with people that make him feel uncomfortable for the rest of his life. And, the mis-actions have divided the adult team's trust. The SM is not the leader of the adult team, that is the CC. And it is up to the committee to determine what to do with scoutmasters who don't live up to the expectation of the troop. In most cases, committees let the SM drive the Vision of the program and the process for working the program. But, in reality, the Vision and the program process should be created and guarded by the committee to have continuity over the years. Part of the problem is that many Scoutmasters use compassion as their motivation without really even considering the scout's future. True, this SM save the day by totally ignoring the troop committee and presses further by choosing future committee members for the scout. Without, sitting down and discussing the situation with the committee to seek out what is really best for the Scout. The whole committee can't be heartless. I also struggle with these scoutmasters because their Ego's many times tend to drive them to ignore normal policies and other ideas. We had such a SM on this forum who stated good ideals for the good of scouts, but tended to modify the BSA policies to fit his own unproven theories. After he was asked to leave his 3rd troop in five years, he dropped off the forum. His compassion and theories where dangerous. If the SM of this situation doesn't work with the committee, then they can look forward to other issues in the future. I watched a stubborn compassionate SM drive their troop to litigation. It was the wisdom of the CC who manage to find compromise with parents and save the troop a lot of money. The CC needs to have a meeting with the SM and explain the loss of trust they have with decisions. The Committee and the SM corp need to go back to training together and if possible, team development training. Each adult member needs to learn the expectations of their position and trust each other to support the program. I could go on and on, but I have watched many BOR issues drive a wedge in troop programs because one of more adults decided they were right and took things in their own hands. Unfortunately most of volunteers are not trained for many of the situations that occur in a volunteer organization and they let their emotions drive their actions around policies and procedures. And then someone like me gets a call from district to go and see they can get the program back on the rails. Barry

Most folks here know that I am a anti Tiger person because I found through a lot of research that Tigers strangles the ALL the other ages because it burns out the adults. Lions will only push that issue faster. If National feels peronoid about membership at the toddler age, then they need to look at a seperate program like the GSUSA Daisies that takes the burdon of toddler maturity away from the pack, and provides a divide where adults can say, No!, I need a break. We changed our Tiger program to one meeting a month led by parents with the assistance of a pack adult mentor. We made a few other changes with the intention of taking as much burden off the adults as possible. Our Tiger to Wolf retention went from 20 percent to 90 percent. Do, what it takes to save your program. I know of several packs that skipped Tigers and maintained their Wolf numbers the next year. A packs long range goals should be to get their scouts to crossover. That is a huge goal. On average, only 50% of Webelos even crossover to troops. That doesn't include the membership drop outs at the younger ages. Normally, observing Troop membership is a good indicator to how program changes are performing, but covid has everything messed up. A guess is that 2022 is really the first year baseline leaving 2028 as the indicator for Troop membership. BUT, We already noted a measurable drop in Troop membership in 2006 after national made huge program changes to the Tiger program in 2000. I can't imagine Lions doing any better. I've felt that Lions should be, what is now the first year Webelos with a program that starts the scouting into independent decision making, but with the family. The 2nd year Webelos would be more advanced toward a troop program (basically more independence without the family), but still a den program. But, National never seems to to consider my brilliant ideas. LOL. Barry

Wow, great discussion. I call the scouting world in this discussion real life at a boy's (youth's) size. Scouting is assumed safe because the program is presented so that scouts are physically safe. But, I taught in the adult classes that scouting is safe because a scout is safe to make wrong decisions without judgement forcing correction. Watching a scout learn from their decisions without the reaction of judging and correcting is the most challenging part of the adult leaders responsibilities. I admit that I did it wrong more often than I did it right. Barry

The one time a close is appropriate is when the culture process is going the wrong direction. When culture affects 100 scouts, then the class is the quick fix for correction. You are right that the MB card is an opportunity for a discussion and teaching, mostly with brand new scouts. But, we found that the lesson learned from MB processing didn't translate to signing off other scouts' handbooks. The issue there is that the signing off advancement incorrectly isn't discovered until the other scouts have a conference. And, usually several scouts are victims of the incorrect signoff processing. I didn't feel a correction here required an individual discussion when the correction was simply a better explanation of correctly signing off other scouts advancement. And, I took it as more of adults doing a better job explaining the process. When it comes to these things, boys, (adults included) often take the path of least resistance. Barry

And SSScout makes a good point with the hen scratching. We ended up creating a 10 minute class to teach scouts how to fill out handbooks, merit badge cards, and other documents so that their print was legible with correct dates. I am a full believer in NOT making these task easier for the scouts. District Merit Badge Colleges set bad examples to their units, who in-turn follow with bad habits in their MB process. Barry

National, historically, has a reputation for using data to justify self serving objectives when the opposite trends were closer to reality. Don’t visualize the fine folks at National as professionals working to serve the noble reputation of the Scouting vision. In fact don’t think of them as professional. National likely has some of the data, but aren’t making it easily available because it isn’t to their advantage, both in general operation and public observation. Add that they have been very focused on saving the organization from bankruptcy the last couple of years. I don’t believe the .9 number is a national trend. But, I could be under estimating Covid. I don’t believe the abuse issue is doing that much harm to the general community, because I’m not hearing it from the community, and cultural scandals haven’t pulled down the membership over the years like the naysayers pontificated. National is clumsy with program at the national level, so real program organization will come from the local council. Or not, if you understand what I mean. It’s not hopeless, you do have strength and leverage locally. focus on the pack numbers because they feed the rest of the organization. Raise the pack numbers and the rest of your local program will respond. Barry

Your past post over the years say you do think you know why. Do your research ShootingSports, I did a lot of membership research in the past that often enlightsens and corrects the forum list. Good data is worth its weight in gold because it gives you direction for your program. Barry

Interesting, but I have a hard time swallowing scouts who are passionate enough of the scouting program to make a statement about their opinion of the uniform acting in such a disrespectful manner. It’s me, but I’ve never seen scouts behave like this for a cause. Most scouts want to approach difficult subjects in a mature scout-like manner. As for individualism, the present uniform does that quite well. Take a fully uniformed First Class rank patrol leader and stand him next to a fully uniformed Eagle rank SPL from a different state, and the observer would know a lot about the individualism of each scout. In fact, the Scout uniform provides each scout, rich or poor, on equal ground. Individualism without the uniform would do the exact opposite. Good post DuctTape, but I sort of disagree with you here. The issue in this discussion seems to be adults should respect the scouts for their decision no matter how offensive they were to the group. What the scouts wore t-shirts with 4 letter words giving their opinion of those who disagree? Just how offensive does any scout have to be before they are asked why they feel they can behave Not friendly, courteous, or kind? The problem I see in this discussion is the list is looking at these scouts as youths, not adults, thus trying not to offend them. And, as a result, the list is struggling how to coach or sway the scouts to see the error of their decision. But, that is the wrong perspective of working with young adults. For any person to make a change in behavior, they alone have to see the benefits of making an effort to change. First, they have to be approached and respected as an equal adult. Second, they have to feel safe in the discussion that, while they are being judged “Hey Billy, I don’t think your choice of how you customized the uniform came off well in the group. When you had some time to think about it, I would like to hear your thoughts.” And, in general the scouts will do a pretty good job of reflecting on their choices and how to reconcile with the results of those actions. We adults are mentors and we look look for opportunities to get young adults to reflect back at their actions with the expectation that they themselves will seek and explain the rights and wrongs of the motivations, as well as how to go forward with reconciliation, or moral justification. As a mentor, I’m only a guide in showing the real picture of their choices, not the administrator reconciliatory actions. For a person to change, they must believe change is required to be a better (more mature adult) person. Rarely have I ever seen a scout not reflect on the choices of their actions and propose a different approach to making better choices. Few people want to be offensive, they just don’t it through. A mentor gives them the time to think about it and plan going forward. Barry

I can’t agree with knot that that wearing a tutu and tights is a highly appropriate way to bring attention to their opinion of the uniform. Highly? It certainly isn’t an intellectual approach to the conversation. Barry

Well hold on there, are saying their action wasn’t self serving? Giving permission on one bad action, no matter how small or big, leads to more bad actions. Uniform interpretations are lame excuses. The handbook gives the scouts their guidelines. Barry

Spending Capital for the purpose of correcting a scout’s motivation behind bad decisions is the main responsibility of the SM. As everyone agrees, their dress was inappropriate and just plain disrespectful to the group. What level of inappropriate and disrespectful actions are we to consider a starting place? Barry

In Memory Of” is a cool idea. We also put our Eagles on the trailer. That tradition save another troop in town when an ASM found himself following their troop trailer on a normal work day. He called the police and followed the trailer until the police pulled the thieves over. We try to recognize our hard working volunteers at every COH. Barry

There is patrol method, and then there is Patrol Method. I found that no scouting activity bonds and challenges scouts more than patrol meals. Nothing comes close. Meals should be a team effort with building the fire, collecting wood for the fire, preparing food, cooking food, then cleaning up afterwards. Patrols that struggle the most don't work as a team. Instead they typically assign two to four scouts who feel stuck with tasks. Patrols where everyone is working to get the meal prepared are typically well bonded and spend half the time for meals preparation. Preparing meals is a skill, if not an art. My older son loved to be troop guide mostly because he liked to teach his patrol how to cook. And traditionally, he cooked a turkey for their first evening campout. I understand the dilemma of preparing meals at summer camp. We more than not don't because there are many camps where the scouts can prepare their meals. From a logistics perspective, getting food to patrols to prepare is a lot more challenging than just preparing the meals and having the scouts stand in line with their trays. But, from a character building and scouts skills perspective, scouts grow so much more preparing their own meals. Then there is the high adventure treks. That is another level of team skills all-together. Introduce sumping for clean-up to encourage the scouts to cook better. I'm not talking about digging a hole, but consuming all leftover bits. There are different ways to challenge patrols so that they grow together as servants to each other. And I challenge troop leaders to look for those methods. But, nothing like cooking as a team creates that servant bond. Barry

Makes sense, but that is a lot of sexual abuse. And NYLT is generally observed pretty close. I wonder what is labeled sexual abuse. Barry

There has got to be more to this story. Barry

Yep, exactly. Still, it's hard for folks to understand that you want scouts to make bad decision now so that they can be corrected for adulthood. I would be surprised that girls don't make decisions in this area as well. I have witnessed such attitudes on this forum. Barry

Sad to say the least, but I find that in most cases, there is an adult somewhere that planted a seed and the scout gets the blame. If this is not the case, then it comes down to the SM having a discussion about making a bad decision. Barry

It’s funny to me how adults set rules to keep from admitting a foul. A number of years back the mother of a high school student put a butter knife in her sons lunch to spread the peanut butter she included on his crackers. When a teacher saw the butter knife, the student was kicked out of school for breaking zero tolerance knife policy. As you said, the rule is for safety and the butter knife had little bearing on the mission of safety. But, nobody was willing to bend. I learned hypocrisy is by far the greatest violation adults make to youth as the youth grow in learning to make sound judgments and decisions. We adults have experience of life and use that leverage to never apologize for our pride and fickleness. Barry

I agree. But I did not dictate any expectations of how scouts wear the uniform in our troop. I did give the PLC the expectation of making right decisions. The handbook tells the scouts how to wear the uniform, so they didn’t need the adults help. But, the question came up now and then if they were making a good decision on how they wore their uniform. I did have some really good discussions on the subject with the PLC. If the adults can’t justify the uniform in the big picture of developing good character, then the uniform will always be a problem because youth don’t naturally relate dress code to character. Our PLC was responsible for the scouts using the 8 methods. In fact, each PL set goals for each method to measure their performance. Adults had nothing to do with their goals. And, I would say the uniform was typically one of the most challenging methods to improve. The thing is that each scout is going through personal challenges in life that sometimes confuse the importance of a proper uniform, as well as making good decisions. While a scout likely never heard me question their uniform, they had heard me mention right and wrong decisions several times. If I had to guess how many scouts made correct uniform decisions on a typical meeting or campout, I would guess 50%. While we adults didn’t usually dictate a policy that the scouts already had in their handbooks, we did enforce wearing the uniform while traveling. We found that 50 boys running around a convenance store grabbing junk food during a fuel stop made store employees nervous. The uniform identified the adults who were responsible for them, which made the employees much more comfortable. Barry

Barrier? Or part of the game. I took an active part in sending National letters 25 years ago explaining the huge negative impact the Tigers program had on the rest of the program. But, one part of the Tiger program they were doing right was issuing Tiger Cub T-shirts. The Tigers only needed a $15 T-shirt for their uniform. In 2000, National change the Tiger program that went totally opposite of what I felt was the fix to the membership problems caused by the Tigers. I was pretty angry. But, what really got me was National switched from the T-Shirt to the more expensive Official Cub Scout Uniform. When I inquired about that change (complained), I was shown some data where parents felt that Tigers were not treated equally because of their uniform. They wanted their toddler cubs to look just like the rest of the pack. It was the parents who wanted the more expensive uniform. I hear now and then over the years from a few people of how the uniform is either driving membership away, or preventing youth from joining at all. They don't have any real proof, the suggestion is just personal and local. I don't believe it. I think most of the populous believe that the uniform is part of the adventure and fun. Yes, uniforms seem to have their issues of fit, material and appropriate wear. But, those issues are endured so that the scouts can get the full benefit of the program. My experience is scouts between the ages of 12 and 14 naturally struggle with their personal identity and they shun the uniform outside their activities. But, after 14, that pretty much goes away. I'm not sure what improvements need to be made, I don't really care. I am so glad the shorts were lengthen after 1990. Boy, was that a welcome change. I will say I still have the collarless shirt I wore back in the early 70s and that was a very comfortable shirt. Barry

I have no problem discussing uniform advances, but We can’t have discussions of improving marketing and give up the uniforms at the same time. Boy Scouts have been identifiable by their uniform since the program started 110 or so years ago. Barry

I've noticed over the years that when a movie or television show wants to portray a female scout, they are wearing a similar uniform to the old Girl Scout dress even though the present uniform looks basically like a T-shirt. The movie Dodge Ball is a good example. The Boy Scout uniform is still portrayed pretty much like the Boy Scout uniform, give or take the brand protection. Barry

LOL, all over the map. We do training. Our QMs and drivers train together. They practice with the driver backing up to the trailer listening to the QM's directions. Together they checking the lights and hooking the safety chain. And they discuss CG and loading. Not a hard course to whip up if you need one. I haven't seen any unit statistics on trailer incidents, which means there are likely very few. We had an axil break on one trip. Not a big deal for the car towing the trailer, but it could have been for the car behind if they hadn't provided the proper separation. I could see practicing changing a tire in training. I have no problem with an adult giving a trailer a last look, but, loading a trailer isn't rocket science once those involved understand what to do. Like I said, troops tend to repeat the same trip 90% of the time. Scouts get used to where they typically place dutchovens and heavy tools like axes, patrol boxes and so on. It's that other 10% like high adventure that might need a review of CG. We typically had two trailers: The large one for 100 weekend campouts and the small one for high adventure treks. Our troop is a backpacking troop and the Patrol leaders try to get backpacks hauled in cars if they can. We don't use patrol boxes and tables. Our stoves are backpacking stoves and the scouts may bring a cooler if their meals require it. Most camp gear is propane lantern and tarps. For a 100 scout troop, we travel pretty light, considering. And we like that. Barry

You are over thinking this. Our QM was in charge insuring the patrols loaded the trailer correctly and that it was hitched properly to the vehicle (verified lights and turn signals working). They were trained to keep the CG forward of the trailer axil, as well as, the hitch connected and locked correctly. Troop trailers tend to be loaded with the same gear 90% of their use. If the QM didn't go with the Troop or High Adventure Crew to insure the trailer was loaded correctly, they he trained someone. We don't give the scouts enough credit. The vehicles didn't start driving for their destination until the SPL had a full count and said it was OK. The only time our troop left a scout behind was when the new SM didn't trust that policy. Wasn't me by the way. Barry